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This looks like a Rebecca Sugar cartoon and I love every minute of it
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
[CENTER][URL=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/24.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
That's my point. Your ideal of what a "warrior woman" might be like IRL holds absolutely no bearing on what they should or must be like in a fictional cartoon universe. Why is a character that would look like Ronda Rousey be any more "realistic" as a "warrior woman" in She-Ra's universe? You're applying real world norms/expectations to a fictional world.
Again you're applying your [b]own[/b] personal opinion (not fact) of what a "warrior woman" is onto a [b]fictional[/b] (not factual) universe. Somehow that's effectively doubly wrong.
Do we even know that for sure? The question of "intent" is the problem here. If we don't even know if this She-Ra was "intended" to be androgynous or not how can we actually be sure whether this portrayal was supposed to appeal to typical men or not?
At best you're helping to prove my point for me: I never said She-Ra doesn't look like a woman - I said she looks too much like a man. Think about it. ;)
I have never denied there are women/females who possess classically masculine traits such as Ronda Rousey. I have never denied that Ronda is a female and that the working assumption is that She-Ra is supposed to be a female as well. If you are certain that both Ronda and this new She-Ra belong in the category of "females who possess masculine traits" then it's completely "founded" to say that the new She-Ra looks overtly masculine.
I don't ultimately care if that is "right" or "wrong" - my core question is whether that was "by design" or "by accident".
I never said she couldn't be. I only want to know if that is the artist's ACTUAL INTENT or if the person simply sucked as an artist. Is She-Ra supposed to be a "boyish girl" in the cartoon or did the artist simply "draw" her that way? That's been my fundamental question of this entire thread.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
This is the creator and showrunner, [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noelle_Stevenson]Noelle Stevenson[/url].
[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Noelle_Stevenson.jpg/220px-Noelle_Stevenson.jpg[/img]
So I'd say, that explains that. =)
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_HUdf89hI8]Send out your signal, call in your hero
I kidnapped his lady, now his power's are zero.
[/url]
Another fair point to make is all we have are still pictures. For me part of giving it a decent chance is seeing how it looks when animated. Good animation can add a lot to a series whereas bad...well I'll just say I'm not watching Shakespeare if it looks like Clutch Cargo.
The last time I saw this point brought up was in relation to the 4th season of Highschool DxD, which was done by a new studio with different character designs. The new designs were not popular at first, but grew on folks quickly once they saw them animated. (And yes, I found a way to link She-Ra to DxD there.)
The person didn't suck as an artist. I imagine they got exactly the look they wanted.
If that's not a look you like there's a plethora of other girls who fit the standard petite warrior girl fare.
Like, almost all of them. Makes you wonder why in a male dominated industry that they always seem to turn out that way... And when a woman designs a show we get ladies with varying bodytypes.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
The Ronda pic and the Adventure Time pic, I can look at and go "Female."
I look at the GoT pic and go "Who's he?" same with the She-Ra pic, "Who's that guy?"
Adora however, looks like a girl.
So perhaps it is just the pic. Maybe the artist is just a failure when it comes to this design choice. Personally, I have no hate for the art style. I do feel they made She-Ra look like a boy. I do feel they did it as a political statement as well. the whole show in fact.
Let's look at it...
Boy She-Ra.
Fat Glitter. Which I'm really curious to see if they just don't mention she's fat. Do some episode where she gets fat shamed. Do an episode where she wants to lose weight. Will no one ever mention it. Is she fat because she's lazy and doesn't do any actual fighting with the others? Will they pull a Wilson Fisk and it's not fat, but muscle?
She-Ra and the Princesses of Power. Not Princess of Power. So all of them are Princesses now! Don't want to leave anyone out :)
The show is going for a statement. That much is obvious. Doesn't make it bad. Nothing wrong with a show, cartoon or not, trying to make a statement. The question will be, will people want to tune in for the statement. Time will tell.
The waist and hips look like a girl to me. In this picture:
[img]https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/394/079/37b.jpeg[/img]
In my eyes the image on the right is a young and/or flat chested young woman with short hair. Again, the waistline gives it away.
Here’s another image to demonstrate:
[img]https://cdn.tutsplus.com/vector/uploads/2013/11/3-man-and-woman.jpg[/img]
The sketch on the left has a female’s figure. To the right is a male. Again, look at the waist/hip area, particularly the hip-to-waist ratio.
By the way that picture is part of a tutorial on how to draw men vs drawing women.
It’s subtle in the image of She-Ra. There’s no question that the artist didn’t emphasize the proportions, giving it a somewhat androgynous look. But to my eye it leans female (if barely).
She's not fat. She's just bigger. She doesn't seem to be an unhealthy size, so they have no real reason to mention it.
Also, her name is Glimmer.
And sure, princesses of power. Why can't they all be considered princesses?
If it's anything like the recent DreamWorks Netflix shows it'll be good (Though I haven't watched Troll Hunters I have heard good things). If it's anything like most modern cartoons it'll be good.
It has gorgeous art that will likely only get better as the artists and animators get more comfortable with it.
I'm very much looking forward to this and Thundercats Roar.
Kylo Ren was so right about this one thing.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Thundercats Roar looks terrible!
I like the art style I'm seeing for She-Ra. Not sure it fits when remembering the original though.
And no. Glimmer isn't just bigger. From the one pic we have, she's fat.
Glimmer is supposed to be what, early teens? She a husky gal.
Either She on the fat side... or She Ra is anorexic. Glimmer is twice her width
[img]https://orig00.deviantart.net/a92b/f/2018/212/c/a/thick_lad_by_angelsrflamabl-dcivje0.jpg[/img]
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You're comparing She-Ra's waist to Glimmer's hips.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Well if they "got what they wanted" then apparently they wanted to confuse/annoy a bunch of people as to what gender the new She-Ra is supposed to be. Doesn't seem like a goal a show like this would be shooting for.
Yes there are but that's not the point. The point is the following:
I don't have any problem with seeing a petite warrior girl in a show like this.
I don't have any problem with seeing a Ronda Rousey type warrior woman in a show like this.
I guess what I DO have a problem with is a character that's trying to look like both and neither at the same time.
What I would say to the artist is, "Pick a body type and stick with it. Stop trying to mix a bunch of overtly non-matching male and female gender elements together. It doesn't work."
I get that you're trying to spin this into an issue of sexism when that's NOT my problem with it at all. I do NOT think that any version of She-Ra MUST be a hyper-sexualized feminine woman designed only for men to drool over and I have absolutely no problem with a female artist/creative making a supposedly female character that has a "varying non-traditional body type".
The PROBLEM I have with this one pic of She-Ra is that it's so gender-vague that I'm not really sure if I'm looking at a girl, a boy in drag or something in-between. I simply want to KNOW what I'm supposed to be looking at and I want to know whether the gender vagueness was intentional or not. Sadly I suspect the artist did NOT intend for it to be vague and thus I would claim the artist failed at a least on some level.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Again that's really my main issue here. It's not that this She-Ra merely looks "like a boy" in a full on 100% binary way as much as it looks "like a vaguely androgynous 49%/51% male/female hybrid thing" and I'm simply confused if that vagueness was intentional or not.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
If this is just a case of a "creator" wanting to infuse themselves into their "creation" I'm fine with that. After all the best Peter Pans have always been played by females...Think about it.
At least this might provide some context for why the She-Ra artwork in question is otherwise arbitrarily pushing the limits of layering "boyish" qualities onto a female character. *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
since thundercats were mentioned.... this sums up my feels
[img]https://pm1.narvii.com/6850/d9e1ad5f6e3dc3b7f58cecac5147e2a79cc917bav2_hq.jpg[/img]
New she ra is from its very first few still images pushing an obvious narrative. People can make the show they want sure. My issue isn't that the lead is a tomboy (love Arya Stark) I don't care that the actual boy in the shot barely has the same shoulder span as a girl. I dont care that everyone has a different body type.
I care that they make a statement on SOMEONE ELSES creation. They arnt original, they arnt even pushing the social justice threshold. They are just using the social justice platform to screw with an already established IP. Her face reads boy, her shoulders read boy, her hips barely read girl.
Kids don't like to be confused. Fans of the He Man universe dont like to see their once powerful characters reduced to cafe latte versions.
Maybe they will prove me wrong, but i bet im right.
I bet the next thing this group tries to reboot is Fist of the North Star, only now they are all going to be drawn like steven universe, because haha.
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That's 80's anime, not 80's American cartoons. Next will be M.A.S.K. which may not be to bad, as that show really didn't get the episodes going on. Or GI JOE.
I wouldn't mind an updated Robotech, but from what I've read, Robotech was created as a tax evasion, and that's why it hasn't gotten further. :/
[img]https://www.anime-planet.com/images/anime/covers/dd-fist-of-the-north-star-ii-7543.jpg[/img]
DD Fist of The North Star.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
"It's a fantasy show they can look however they want!"
Ok they look like this.
"NO. I want them to look how I want it!"
Freeking whiney "fans" who probably didn't think about for years whatever it is they are now whining about.
Nerds are the worst.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Does that mean, as some one who has actually looked up and listened to the original She-Ra theme song, multiple times, a long with Thundercats, JEM, MASK, Transformers, Robotech, Silver Hawks and multiple other 80's cartoons, I can have an opinion on it? :)
<_< 80's cartoon's had awesome theme songs >_>
80's cartoons had awesome intros. Usually the intros had much better animation than the shows themselves.
Though my favorite cartoon intros would be Bucky O'Hare, the Where in the World is Carmen San Diego cartoon, and the into and outro to Cyber Six.
As for your opinion, you're entitled to it. But if it boils down to "The new She-Ra isn't sexy enough" you can shove it.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
What? I totally intend to watch the new She-Ra. I still think the pics released make her look like a boy though :p
However, I do like the animation style. Wish it was the better He-Man 2002 style that I was hoping would get around to She-Ra but it was cancelled before they could :(
Yeah, I personally think it looks good and it'll be a show worth watching. Even if it's not for me it'll likely be great for it's actual target audience.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
See. People can like the animation style and still hate the design choice of the main character :p
Which is likely the biggest issue.
Likely with the three princesses (out of, I don't know how many there are) we've seen so far they're likely aiming to have them cover a wide variety of body types and skin tones so there'll be a character that any young girl can see themselves in.
Which is a problem with a lot of media of the past, it seemed to say "If you don't look a certain way, you can't be a hero." That's what quite a few people got out of it, anyway.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
For the record I have never said that I wanted the new She-Ra to specifically look any particular way. I have never said she must look like X, Y or Z. If they want to draw her with a non-traditional (i.e. not WASPish Disney princess) female body type that's perfectly fine with me.
My problem - one more time - is that the new She-Ra is not merely drawn as a "non-traditional" girl. She's been drawn as some kind of weird, impossible IRL, hybrid boy/girl thing that defies instant classification gender-wise. Is she meant to be a "boyish girl"? Is she meant to be a "girlish boy"? I don't know and that annoys me.
As I said before the artist should have picked a body type and stuck with it instead of cherry-picking bits and pieces from across the gender spectrum. This has nothing to do with whether the new She-Ra is "sexy" enough or not. I don't even know if "she" is meant to be a "she" in the first place. If questioning that fundamental notion makes me a "nerd" then I guess I'm guilty as charged.
In summary:
[img=400x400]https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/59710606.jpg[/img]
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Now at the risk of hijacking my own thread I'd like to briefly talk about a newly released movie promo pic that's seems convientently related to this question about "manly looking females":
[img=600x600]http://cdn.collider.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/terminator-6-linda-hamilton-mackenzie-davis-natalia-reyes-600x400.jpg[/img]
Turns out Terminator 6 (yes they are actually doing yet another Terminator movie) has several strong looking female leads. Among them is of course Linda Hamilton (the original Sarah Connor on the right) who looks pretty buff at 61 now.
But it's Mackenzie Davis (the one in the middle) that I specifically wanted to mention. Her character in this film is apparently going to be "warrior woman" oriented and is plainly masculine in appearance, with the short boyish haircut and the buff arms/shoulders. This is clearly a departure from the other more feminine looking characters she's played in other movies/shows:
[img=300x300]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/41/1c/47/411c47ec9e1e917812155d273b16691b.png[/img][img=300x300]http://entertainment.ie//images_content/rectangle/620x372/Untitled201839141705.jpg[/img]
But to be absolutely clear I have [b]no problem[/b] with how Mackenzie looks in the new Terminator movie because I know she's a woman IRL and likely still meant to be a woman in the movie. It's not that I hate strong manly looking female warriors, it's that I hate [b]not knowing[/b] if a character is [b]supposed[/b] to be one of those or not.
It's the [u]uncertainty[/u] of these things like the new She-Ra that annoys me.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
In that pic, I thought the one in the middle might be a guy. :p
That maybe what they're going for, it still doesn't make the general idea of it dumb, when not placed in a fantasy setting, which can get away with it a bit more. :p
That "question" of gender-vagueness is the reason why I posted it here. It seemed closely related to the She-Ra reboot controversy we've been discussing. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Weird impossible boy/girl thing?
I fucking showed you REAL WOMEN who share her characteristics.
They did pick a body type. A body type that real women have.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
I've told you 3 or 4 times now how pics of "real life" women don't apply here. Of course there real life women who possess masculine characteristics but in ALL those cases it is still ABSOLUTELY OBVIOUS those are genetic WOMEN.
I still don't know if the new She-Ra is supposed to be a boy, girl or anything in-between because the artwork is so vaguely imprecise you can't really tell what it's SUPPOSED to be. Like I said I'm pretty sure that I, as a complete non-artist, could have done a better job. My version of She-Ra would likely look horrible as heck but you'd at least still be able to tell she was supposed to be female. *shrugs*
I'm sorry you keep missing the obvious problem here.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
It's a girl. It's She-Ra.
If you cannot figure that out then maybe a show intended for little girls just isn't for you.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
A lot of people are tired of characters they know getting massive reworks to be "more inclusive" instead of and i use this term very loosely "creators"..... actually creating a new property.
No one i know who knew the x-men characters liked when they made garbage deadpool.
No one i know who grew up watching ghostbusters (Cartoon or movies) liked the erasing of the original team
Most the people I know didn't really like that they changed the Ancient One in Doctor Strange (I blame this one on China)
I can remember a few grumbles around Duncan being cast for Kingpin, but at least they went for a big dude playing a big dude.
I was annoyed when the Karate Kid reboot didn't have the kid do Karate. (Though the movie was imo better than i expected.)
Teen Titans Go was a super garbage version of Teen Titans.
All the stuff they have done to Captain America recently in comics.... fans seem to kinda hate it. (Movie Captain seems pretty on point)
Have you looked at a new squirrel girl comic.... JFC..... the drawings are hideous, just straight ugly and every character is a fun times inclusion check list.
Turning Ice Man gay after decades of him dating chicks... because cant make a new hero who happens to be gay.
Its just annoying.
Instead of developing a plot or idea or new show that either shows a gradual character development change, or a passing of the torch, or a NEW character... they just make huge sweeping changes to existing characters and it should stop.
If you dont see the diversity checklist in that screenshot... you arnt looking at it.
Fat girl, check
Minority, check
Androgynous character, check
Im almost willing to bet my kickstarter copy of the game that 1 of the characters will be kinda trans, and 1 is going to be super gay.
Before ppl think im racist, or sexist, or whatever-ist.... Im not. I loved x-men growing up because of how different but understandable they were. The race, orientation, or gender never mattered to me because they were a character first the rest was part of who they were, it didnt define what they were.
Prof X happened to be disabled, he wasn't turned disabled to try and get more readers. Storm happened to be black, she wasnt changed to black to try and get a new segment of readers. Wolverine was a short burly jacked dude. and they should have hired peter dinkalege to play him in the movies.
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I have no idea who a show is intended for when its main character is as "gender-vague" as this appears to be.
Is this for little girls who want to be "tomboys"? Is this for little boys who are questioning their own gender identities? Is this for the latest crop of millennials who want to raise their kids as "[url=https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/boy-or-girl-parents-raising-theybies-let-kids-decide-n891836]theybies[/url]"? I have no idea...
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
The show is intended for young girls. All young girls.
And she doesn't look "gender-vague" to me.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Did the making of the new Ghostbusters movie retroactively stop the old movies and show from existing? Cause I don't think it has that kind of power, guy.
Most people (non nerds, movie going public) didn't know jack shit about Dr. Strange and thus didn't care about the change. But yes, China is a big market these days, so ensuring something does well is a smart business move.
Teen Titans Go is great.
Seen new squirrel girl, loved it.
Oh my god, it's not as if people can be gay and have dated girls in an effort to be "normal". honestly that's a really good move and can make for very interesting storytelling.
Change is inevitable and will always happen. Let the past die. Kill it if you have to.
Oh my goodness a show that's not just made for white people, the travesty! It has a diverse cast like the audience will be. One of the characters was super gay in the original, too. The dude.
You're being pretty sexist and racist here. If not that then at least bigoted and ignorant.
I'll teach you a lesson that gets taught to kids at an early age. Learn to share. Enjoy the ones from the past if you must, let other people have the new stuff. Just go, "it's not for me, but I hope it does well so maybe down the line they'll make a version I like more."
Sweet Christmas nerds are annoying.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
You seem to like a lot of things that get very bad ratings compared to their original version.
Just because you (or myself), or another viewer, is ignorant of the source material does not make the source material irreverent.
I have seen plenty of movies or shows that did a bad job of following the source material and after I listened to the argument of the people who enjoyed the source material I understood their point. What I didn't do is tell them they were racist bigots.
Using your logic, American Males are a huge market, arguably in the super hero genre much larger than the female market. Therefore all princesses should be turned into guys, and they should all be designed to look like fortnite characters because if the source material doesnt matter and only marketing does then my changes should happen.
Edit: and yes, a reboot does in universe, stop the previous version from existing. A sequel does not.
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Teen Titans Go has 5 seasons and a movie. A theatrical release.
I don't really know what other things have bad ratings compared to their originals you're talking about.
American Males are a large audience. Which is why stuff directed at them tends to diversify to include non-white characters. Because white males is a smaller demographic. And an even bigger demographic is you know, everyone. So all shows by a strictly business standpoint should aim to be as unisex and diverse as possible.
And yes, white men are dominant in the Super Hero fandom, largely due to the fact they make those who aren't white men feel unwelcome. Or because for the most part most of the super hero stuff is made with white men in mind which makes those who are not white men feel alienated by the thing they like. Not helped by the fandom's toxic reactions to anything that doesn't fit the heteronormative, white male centric narrow minded veiw those same fans have of the source material.
And no, the source material isn't very important, at all. A thing can have nothing to do with some source material and still feel more like a version of it than something that has all the trappings. Case in point, Captain America: The First Avenger felt more like a Superman movie than Man of Steel. Because Captain America had one of the most important aspects of Superman that MoS lacked, Steven Rogers seemed like a good person. And that's far more important than iconography, getting names right, or having actors that look like the source material. Getting the heart and soul of a thing right.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Ghostbusters bombed for a reason. As someone who didn't care if they did an all female cast, but hated the idea of them ignoring the originals when they did it, I went to see it. It was RIPD quality and some people were trying to treat it like it was something amazing. That was just annoying. :p
The Ancient One change was funny. They changed a character because of China. Replaced it with a woman and people got all upset. However, when they change the Ghostbuster team to female, it's some sort of work of genius. People can't make up their minds on any of the things they whine about.
Teen Titans Go! I just can't get into most of the episodes. It's like 1 in 10 for good episodes. Just sucks when compared to the original Teen Titans it's taken from.
New Squirrel Girl, I think the art sucks but I was never a fan of hers, so no opinion on it really. Always thought she was a dumb character.
Iceman being gay. Have to disagree PH. It was a move to try and sell a comic (that failed) and make one of the original X-Men gay. There were many characters they could have done this with. Northstar comes to mind as an awesome character that could have headlined his own comic and is gay. Problem is, Iceman is way more well known than Northstar and more likely to get people in.
It didn't work, but the reasoning is the same that they've used on all the changes. They don't want to take the risk of a new character or a lesser known character and try to use a more well known character in hopes it'll help catch on.
So, look. Lesson to share? Was already happening! Share the superheroes! Make one gay! Okay! Look! Northstar! Shatterstar! Rictor!
Just like when people talk about there not being any superheroes of color or female superheroes. It's not that there aren't. Those complaining just weren't picking them up. It's not that they aren't out there. What those people are really saying is, "I don't read the comics, but I want my non-white male superhero to be more popular and if I can't turn one of the white male ones into a non-white male to hopefully get the non white male character more popular!"
Have to disagree with Steamtank though. Dinklage would not be a good Wolverine. Puck maybe. Wolverine is short. He's not a drawf. Scott Caan would be closer to Wolverine height/build.
Not to mention, even Faust (creator of MLP) said having the strong male fan following helps sells the shows aimed at young girls. Why? Money. I'm actually curious if MLP a show aimed at young girls, has more male fans or young girls. :p Would MLP have done as well as it did if it lacked those male fans? Doubtful.
MLP has good catchy stories, and here is the big thing ORIGINAL CHARACTERS.
They didnt take care bears.... rework all of them, and rerelease it.
PH... i have no idea how you can with a straight face defend the idea of someone changing someone elses character when you are on a game forum about being the SUPER HERO YOU WANT TO BE. Your own character, you arnt here to be Wolverine, or Darth Vadar... you are here to be your character.
Would you defend me going into your RP's and changing your characters to more suit my tastes then me just RPing them?
or... would you ask me to come up with my own character and respect your characters autonomy.
Also, ill take that apology for calling me a bigot any post now. It was rude.
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The Ghostbusters reboot was ok. Nothing great, nothing exceedingly terrible.
People complained all over the place that they changed the Ghostbusters to women. Some even claiming that Ghostbusting was an inherently male profession.
I'd suggest the episodes 40%, 40%, 20% and all of the episodes in the Night Begins to Shine special. Those are all really good. And the old Teen Titans show had a few stinker episodes, most of them that weren't multi parters or dealt heavily with Slade weren't very good. Like, remember the episode where Beast Boy worked at a burger place to get a scooter? I don't remember many of the bad episodes because they were so forgettable. (Also teen titans go re did that Beast Boy working at a burger place and fighting tofu aliens, and it fits in much better with TTG. Oh also they more or less did their own abridged version of the first episode of the original show. TTG gives zero fucks)
Never read any squirrel girl. Just saw the new designs and thought "Oh, that looks fun."
Making a new character or just using a preexisting gay character wouldn't have the same impact. If done right the character's history of dating women (and being a bit of a ladies man, iirc) should be addressed, talked about, and then they can use that as some good character development and let readers know about actual behaviours of actual human beings. Some people go their whole lives being a closeted gay person, going so far as to get married, have kids, and never let anyone know. Introducing a new character you'd have to set all that up from the beginning or just tell, not show, which is terrible storytelling. With a new character, who the fans may hate if their personality in the beginning is too close to an already established character, that character would have to last long enough to have the reveal have any kind of meaning.
People don't pick up those comics because they don't feel welcome in the spaces they are sold. They don't pick them up because people online are usually trashing those comics. Would you want to go to a place you feel unwelcome to pick up a product everyone seems to universally hate? I wouldn't.
Helps, yes. But the male fan base of MLP has done a lot of harm too. Toxicity, spreading of adult subject matter, that can come up even with various safe search filters, etc.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
If your argument here is that character diversity is a good thing and that "binary hetero-normative" characters are bad then I would argue going too far in other direction is equally as bad.
Having some character diversity is totally fine and even desirable. But if you're going to move the proverbial needle so far in other direction that you're advocating for absolute asexualism/unisexualism or favoring cartoon characters that are completely gender-vague (as the new She-Ra is) then I would easily claim that your "social cure" is just as bad as the original "social disease".
The answer to "absolute white male-centric narrow minded views" is not "absolute vaguely effeminate/transsexual multi-racialism". That's simply switching one unhealthy cultural extreme for another. If you want to have a She-Ra that's a bit "boyish" in both attitude and appearance then have fun with that. But making "her" (and I continue to use that pronoun very loosely) completely androgynous in service to some kind of hyper-progressive narrative/social agenda will not "correct" any representational injustices, it'll only create a whole host of new ones.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
You do realize MLP:FiM is based on the original MLP franchise and the characters in the show, I think most of the main cast if not some of them, do have pre existing characters in the old show/toy line?
I have no idea how you can like the X-Men and then be opposed to diversity, or change.
How would you even do that? But yeah, if you think you have some suggestions of changes to any of my characters I'll gladly take them into consideration. And if you think you can come up with a better version of my character, go for it. Either make your own version of whoever, or let me know your idea and I'll see which one appeals to me more. I constantly make new versions of my own characters so I'd be interested to see another's interpretation.
You'll get that apology when you realize you were being biggoted and absolve to be better. And I'm pretty sure I never said you were a biggot. Just that you were being biggoted. The difference would be the same as "You are a jerk" and "You are acting like a jerk." But I will go back and double check for you.
Edit: Ah, I was right. I did only say that you were being biggoted. Which is different than calling you a biggot.
And also, no. A reboot does not prevent the previous thing from existing. If the new version of the Ghostbusters was not made they likely just wouldn't have made any new Ghostbusters anything. You can go back and rewatch the original Ghostbusters, Ghostbusters 2, and The Real Ghostbusters cartoon show to your heart's content. Hell you could even write some fan fiction if you'd like.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
No, that's not my argument. That was from a strictly business standpoint, and on paper, that seems like the safest monetary option. And that is kind of what large companies are doing. Trying to get more mass appeal, because companies want all of the money.
Sometimes it works well, other times much less so.
Though I am on the side of leaving things open enough that a large number of people can enjoy something. But that also requires fan bases to allow other people to enjoy the thing they like.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Maybe they should have just drawn the new She-Ra to look like a Teletubby - at least everyone knows they were meant to be effectively asexual by design. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Pretty sure even the Teletubbies have specified genders. Because people just love to put lables on things.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Leaving things to be "50/50 vague" is pretty much as bad as binary labels... just saying. At least labels provide a means to understand and accept that which is being labeled. I know how to accept a "tomboy" - I don't know what to do with an "it".
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
She's not an it. She's a she. You can tell because she is She-Ra. And she looks like a she, a she that developed some muscle mass like those pictures I posted that apparently don't matter because they don't conform to your ideas off what a girl should look like.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
The complaining about the all female cast was obviously coming, because they wanted to play an agenda card.
That said, I feel that's been a lot of the problems. Pushing those agendas with massive force into people's faces who just want to enjoy their escapism. This is likely made worse due to social media. If it's not the creators trying to use old IPs to push their new agendas, it's someone else trying to shove that narrative onto people.
Yes. Old Teen Titans didn't have all great episodes. Just a better Good to Bad ratio.
Shatterstar wasn't gay at first. Neither was Rictor. Again, plenty of no name, haven't been around so long characters they could've done the storyline with. They wanted to use an established character for the name recognition and more than likely to say "Look! Original X-Men is gay!" and probably try to move that into the movies.
See, now all that hate for stuff like that, you say is bigoted/racist is just wrong. It's not the fans being racist/bigoted and that's easily provable.
Let's take one of, if not the most popular white male super hero in the world, then see a creator change him, because he hated that character narrative and wanted to change it for the fans...
Spider-Man.
One More Day. Talk about backlash. Where was the hate on for people being upset with that change? What? There was none. No one went and cried out "Ack! Single phobic bastards!"
People don't like a change now, and people get called racist/bigot/sexist, when that change is because it fits into someone's agenda, and truthfully, that just makes them sad and pathetic. Which is what a lot of the "Stop hating on new She-Ra!" people are.
Social Media makes things louder and helps people try to push their agendas, and they're willing to use other people's creations to do it, because they're afraid they can't sell something new with it.
Also...ha. Like it was just males doing the adult subject matter and toxicity. Sorry no. Plenty of females do as well, and it's sexist of you to think they can't be just as bad.
Take away the name She-Ra. Take away the idea you even knew it was related to She-Ra. You could've just as easily thought it was a boy. :p
There is nothing bigoted about wanting a white character to stay white, or a straight character to stay straight.
There is nothing bigoted with wanting Black Panther to remain black. but I do hear the hispanic demographic is on the rise and so is the middle eastern here in the States... so instead of the King of Wakanda being black lets make him half mexican half middle eastern... but im not sure if he should be sunni or shiite....
Also why do they get to keep Wakanda for black people? They should have open borders at all times because thats the politically correct thing to do..
No no, in my reboot of your character you get no say about their personality, or motivations, or backstory, i can make them kinda look the same but change everything about why you made them because I want them to appeal to a different new audience, not the audience you made them for.
I can like X-Men because they were who they were. I would throw a fit if they tried to make Storm White, or Male. Storm is a damn African Queen and all round BAMF and I love her that way.
Turning Iceman gay to get page sales, and yes thats the ONLY reason they did that instead of using an existing gay character DEMEANS the characters and people Iceman is supposed to now represent.
Ratings:
Teen Titans: 7.8
Teen Titans Go: 5.7
Shipped:
For Feb
coming in at 163 with 10.5k units shipped Iceman
coming in at number 180...... with less than 10k units shipped (not sold, only shipped) Squirrel Girl
The number 1 for that month had 101k units shipped. both those comics bombed considering their source material and public outreach
SJW nonsense in Star Wars....
coming in dead last for viewers liking it.... Star Wars the Last Jedi with 46% rotten rating among viewers.
Google search: SJW ruining comics
videos: 37,100
Google search: SJW ruining cartoons
videos: 38,500
Google search: Diversity ruining movies
videos: 55,700
Diversity fatigue has set in, and the box office for Solo is showing it. People are tired of token changes, you can metephorically stick your fingers in your ears and lalalala all you want... but She Ra is going to get cancelled.
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Please join up if you plan to make or collect CoT related art.
Had they not referenced She Ra costumes and had just called it "Princesses of Power" and booted up a show about a semi magic medieval fantasy world of these magic warrior princesses Id be cool with their current overall designs
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Please join up if you plan to make or collect CoT related art.
The rebooted She-Ra is not merely a "girl with beefy arms". The rebooted She-Ra has hair that looks like a wig, has broad shoulders, has no obvious mammary glands at all (even your muscle-clad Ronda Rousey types tend to have something noticeable on their chests) and is wearing boy-shorts BUT "she" also has feminine hips and "her" face is more or less typically feminine... oh and "she" is wearing a dress. It's a Frankenstein'd mish-mash of random male and female characteristics that have been drawn together but could NEVER EXIST in those proportions in real life.
How you can keep saying that the rebooted She-Ra is as "realistic" as the REAL LIFE Ronda Rouseys of this world is anyone's guess. You keep trying to tell me that I'm claiming someone like a Ronda Rousey can't exist and keep showing me pics to prove that people like her do exist. I'M ACTUALLY TELLING you that no human alive looks anything like the rebooted She-Ra. That's the "thing" in this equation that doesn't exist IRL. The differences between a Ronda Rousey type woman and this piece of abstract artwork couldn't be more overt if you tried.
One more time please stop trying to compare real life "warrior women" to this sad piece of artwork. Real life warrior women actually exist - the rebooted She-Ra looks like a transporter recombination accident seconds away from exploding into a blob of unspecified gender goo.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
You do know that Super heroes, especially the X-Men are typically SJWs?
The fundamental difference between changing a white character into a person of color and the reverse is that usually a character being white has no importance to the character, which you can't say the same for a character of color.
Does Captain America need to be white? Is his whiteness important to the character? The answer is no.
Does Luke Cage need to be black? Is being black important to his character? The answer is yes.
SJW nonsense in starwars? You mean how a rag tag and diverse group of rebels fight against a larger fascist force that's predominantly male and white? Sorry, mate. It's been there from the beginning.
And yeah, the Wakanda thing, did you watch the movie? Did you notice the text of the movie that being an isolationist mono culture was a bad thing and they should open up their borders to the rest of the world?
You could very easily make a Hispanic Black Panther. Probably wouldn't be from Wakanda because of it's monoculture.
What are these ratings and where are you getting them? Are they for the show, the comics?
Was the number 1 for that month Superman? Batman? Cause they generally bring in the big numbers. And also that kind of ignores the plethora of reasons non white non males don't buy comic books. I pay some attention to the comics industry and only in this thread did I learn the Iceman being gay thing. So of someone who pays a little attention doesn't hear about it how does a non comic book Reader know that a book is in that they might like?
And gee, it's almost as if a lot of right wing leaning people complain a lot about SJWs and diversity almost as if they have an agenda... But no, that can't be right.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Except for those that do look like her. We have no idea what She-Ra's side profile looks like, or if that top of hers is some sort of armor. Good armor doesn't show boobs.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Registered Democrat voter since 2001.
Live in a Minority, majority community.
Work in a 80% economically disadvantaged area.
Yup, im a total right winger.
Being a weak white kid who got turned into an apple pie eating american hero IS important to who he is. If Captain America had been black back in WW2 that would have been a very very different story. A very good story, but not Captain America as he is envisioned.
If you try and take all the iconic white guy heroes and diversify them you just create the same problem all over again... now there are no heroes for white kids to look up to... but wait you ll argue, why cant they look up to black panther?> the answer... they can. so stop changing white characters to black.
I know for a fact that black teenage boys think Goku is awesome. They don't care 1 bit that he isn't black.
Those ratings were IMDB and rotten Tomatoes.
Your very arguments go against what you are talking about... In your statements Luke Cage could very well be a white guy living in Harlem or the Bronx, it would be just as compelling as black captain america in ww2.
you cant say being black is important to black people
then turn around and say
being white isnt important to white people
its one or the other. Either identity matters, or it doesn't.
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Yes. Captain America's whiteness is important to his character. He was an anti-nazi ass kicker while being the nazi ideal.
Pretty sure all those white Irish heroes have being Irish tied to them. Captain Britain too.
Have to agree with Steamtank. It's not like it's only black people wrongfully convicted of crimes and sent to jail.
Though, let's be honest. In a world of X-Men, you'd think the racism card would be down with more of a human vs mutant mentality going on (which the X-Men cartoon itself mentioned).
No Project Hero really makes me want to see a white actor playing Black Panther. Growing up as royalty in a hidden African country!
As for why a majority of comic buyers are white males. It's not the "Oh no comics for me" or "Oh, I can't go in there." it's "Pffft. Comics are for kids." "Comics are for boys." "Comics aren't for non white boys." :p
Being white in America isn't an identity.
Yeah, turning Cap black would have some changes. And there was a black captain America during WW2 in marvel comics. I'd argue that a Black Captain America would be more interesting. The idea that despite racism, prejudice, and all that they still come out a good person who just tries to do good. Same as I think a Black Superman would be more interesting. Because then regardless of in or out of costume he'd be treated as 'other.' It can make for some very compelling stories.
And no, because Luke Cage deals with black issues. Racism, prejudice, systematic oppression. To take that away from the character lessens the character.
Yeah, I saw some of those IMDB ratings for TTG a lot of people giving it one star for not being the other cartoon. Not exactly trustworthy.
Same as the rotten tomatoes user reviews. You get a lot of people review bombing a thing. I'd rather look at what actual critics thought.
Anime is an entirely different beast. And I bet a lot of people of color wish race was handled better in a lot of anime. And when given a game like Dragon Ball Xenoverse and the ability to make their own characters most people make them their own skin color.
Minorities are very under represented in media. Most main characters are white. Just by default. Just white people, wall to wall. Most kids shows have white protagonists, if it's a team of three characters it's usually white guy, white guy, and girl. Let people change things, share your God damn toys, you have like what, 50 or so years of predominantly white media? That's probably never going away.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
He was, but I don't think that was text in the original version. More subtext and a happy accident. Having him be black or any other group that the Nazis saw as inferior would also have been good.
The only time I have heard of a character mention an Irish heritage is when Frank Miller had Black Canary be Irish. I have never heard of any American hero ever refer to themselves as anything other than "an American."
No, it just happens a lot more frequently to black people in America. Also being shot when unarmed. Having more severe sentencing for the same crimes, etc etc.
You'd think, yes. But here's the thing about people. They can be bigoted and racist against more than one group at the same time.
I've heard a lot of people, women mostly, say they don't feel welcome in comic book stores. Women generally don't feel welcome in a lot of predominantly male spaces. On video games a lot of girls will go out of their way to not let people know they are one less they be harassed. In D&D communities and tables women are generally harassed and made to feel unwelcome. It's a societal problem but it's slowly getting a bit better.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
I'm just wondering if a new cartoon character that looks as much like a boy as it does a girl is really going to help the average girl/woman with this kind of thing. *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Most kid shows I see (and as a father of an 11-year-old and 4-year-old I see a lot) go out of their way to be diverse.
I’m glad for that too. I was fortunate to grow up in a very mixed neighborhood. My group of childhood friends may as well have been created by a TV writing team checking off various boxes to make sure each minority was represented. I’ve even lived where white people were a minority and experienced what it’s like to be prejudiced against (not a fun experience but I learned a lot of empathy).
I’m glad my daughters are being exposed to a mix of different kinds of people so they don’t grow up feeling scared of or superior to people who are different than them.
I'm glad to see a post like this, it's pretty uplifting.
Definitely shows why this sort of thing is important for people.
On a sort of related note.
I'm glad that more shows these days have characters that have to work towards strength rather than just being handed it. I think it set a pretty bad precedent that a lot of kids media when I was growing up was like "You are special! You don't have to work for it, you just are!" Like the idea that certain people are just talented from the get go without having to work for it. Yes, some people do have raw talent but that still needs to be worked on.
It's just something I noticed a few years back, thinking about shows I used to watch.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Got a meme for you.
[img]https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/81614975/not-sure-if-strawmanning-or-actually-thinks-thats-my-argument.jpg[/img]
Ten bucks on Bow.
And they got rid of his combat bikini...
That's. Not. The. Point.
And you are a dishonest person, sorry to be so blunt.
Your near constant [url=https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/169/Strawman-Fallacy]strawmanning[/url] didn't work, so you move to [url=https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/1/Ad-Hominem-Abusive]ad hominem[/url] attacks.
I'm curious, were you even aware of what you are doing? And did you really think this was the correct way to argue?
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_HUdf89hI8]Send out your signal, call in your hero
I kidnapped his lady, now his power's are zero.
[/url]
To be fair, Project_Hero criticized those statements as seeming sexist and racist, which isn’t entirely the same as actually accusing you personally of the same. It’s a small but important distinction. I’m a Wikipedia administrator (name there is the same here) and personal attacks can lead to sanctions over there. But you can make observations about what a person [i]said[/i] without it being ad hominem.
That being said, I think that’s an exaggerated characterization of what was said before.
Oh, by the way as a kid I had a toy of Bow. But even then I thought there was something disturbing about him. Not the “gay” thing, but he had a heart in the middle of his chest plate and if you pushed a little button on his back the heart would “beat”. It did not look right at all.
Bow was definitely not gay in the old show though. He quite openly had a thing for She-Ra.
"She-Ra doesn't even look like a girl"
Well. What about these girls?
"Those don't count."
/Thread.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1018919384675278848/sxc7TUBH_400x400.jpg[/img]
Edit: Also it's being made by the writer of Runaways. This show is going to be so good, people!
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
In a self-described enlightened age (although I argue we are anything but) we should be able to accept people for who they are. There are young girls who need to see positive role models and have heroes they can aspire to become. A supremely large percentage of women do not have nor will ever have the secondary sexual characteristics of most illustrated female heroes. This is a different problem for boys, because muscles can be earned. So when a boy sees a he-man character he can think that he could be like He-Man someday. Charles Atlas, the original 90 lb weakling is proof of that.
Women don't have it as easily.
When women are inundated that the ideal is an hour-glass shape with large breasts, there's nothing they can do about that but plastic surgery and unhealthy eating habits. Yet we continue to reinforce this nonetheless.
Therefore, if the depiction of a female heroine with negligible secondary sexual characteristics makes some people uncomfortable, then I say it is this discomfort which is the problem, not the depiction. It will be good for girls of all ages to see it.
I personally think the depiction of She-Ra in these images deliberately channels some masculine qualities. I think the shoulders, arm size and strong visage are associated in my brain as more masculine characteristics. But if I feel discomfort over these appearing on a female heroine, then that would be my problem to deal with. However, if the show becomes just a vehicle to ramrod SJW nonsense down our kids throats, then I would have something to say about that. Only time will tell, I guess.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Normally, I try to avoid chiming in on threads that have become "toxic", but I feel a need to. This picture (IMO) only reinforces Lothic's points (and mine as well). This picture looks even more like a young boy dressing up as a girl.
Understand, I have a 9 year old daughter who plays a lot of sports and is (for a 9 year old) fairly buff. She looks nothing like this. Even her team mates, none of them approach this level of masculinity.
This picture has so many masculine visual markers, it is insane (again, my opinion).
My 5 cents worth (Canada has no pennies to offer).
I really don't see it.
Also I'm pretty sure her top is some kind of breast plate. Given how metallic the shoulders and the gold on it looks.
But again, I don't see how you can look at that picture and not think it's a girl.
Edit: She reminds me a lot of Korra. Especially in the face.
[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9a/Korra_%28Season_4%29_appearance.jpg/220px-Korra_%28Season_4%29_appearance.jpg[/img]
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Would love to see an interview with the artist to see what her design philosophy is/was for this series.
I know that there are many animated series that have a character that is sexually ambiguous, but those characters are usually there for shock/comic value. To see that in a main character though.
Korra looks feminine. Even if you block out the body and just look at the face, which i did for both sets of drawings, Korra looms like a woman and the new SheRa doesn't.
Could just be me and the type of comics and cartoons I was raised on 50 years ago. I admit that compared to today's more open acceptance of alternate genders/sexuality I am canonized, but . . .
Sorry, I just don't see it.
Because they get hit on by trolls, some as a way to take them down during pvp (trash talk). Now, if a player can't take trash talk, maybe they shouldn't be playing.
As for getting hit on, that's easy enough to just go "No."
Comic book shops want their money. I've never heard a woman say "I was told to get out of there, it's a man's place," At most it's "I get stared at." and as someone who does go to a comic shop, I'm not so sure it's as bad as heard, as I've never witnessed any of that happening.
Though, I guess, I could just be going to comic book shops that are just more evolved.
True. It is what female celebrities (Kardashians come to mind but plenty of others) and Women magazine's (run by women) really try to push on other women.
Even when they say "Be yourself"
Maybe you just don't want to?
Do you think those boobs are big enough to please the most vocal dudebro crowd who are raising such a stink every time they (think they) perceive a 'threat' to their boyx exclusive club?
Because the 'she is his twin sister' was a horrible idea to begin with. She was abducted and nobody ever bothered to go look for her never mind trying to rescue her. Until she conveniently showed up and did her obligatory heel face turn.
By making her just some girl who grew up in the evil empire (well, not quite that simple really) the writers avoid the rather unfortunate implications of the original backstory and give themselves a lot of room to work with for the new series.
That's a terrible thing.
It's a total departure from She-Ra.
Might as well reboot Star Wars and say Luke and Leia aren't related.
She-Ra is He-Man's twin sister. Why change it so she's not and why would it be a good thing?
If Luke and Leia were from different movies/shows, and they rebooted the Leia show without rebooting the Luke show, and Luke was wrapped up with different IP rights, you bet I’d retcon it so that Luke and Leia aren’t related.
Besides, that’s a terrible example anyway because for a long time they weren’t related. Them being brother and sister was the retcon introduced in RotJ.
I doubt it’s being hit on that’s the biggest problem. I’m sure the bigger problem is that a girl going into a comic book shop is facing the assumption that she probably isn’t really into comic books and doesn’t know much about them. That’s an unfortunate stereotype that is still prevalent, and it will probably take a generation or two to fade away as comic books continue to be part of mainstream culture.
I can remember the very first time I went into a comic book shop. It was a supremely uncomfortable experience, and I was twenty-something at the time. There were hundreds of titles on the shelves and in the bins and all of them were already stories in-progress, so just the idea of picking one to look at was daunting. Add to that the relative quiet of the place and the feeling that I was expected to know what I was doing there. Maybe there's an anime running on a TV somewhere and a couple otaku going on about some obscure comparison of plotlines or characters in one comic or other. I can see how some people who already think of themselves as an outsider to begin with, or who think they are a visitor into another gender's world would associate this natural discomfort with the discomfort of those differences. I don't think they ever stopped to think that maybe even males feel the same trepidation. (I'm pretty fearless, though, and I walked right up to the desk and told the dude I had no idea what I was doing and he was pretty cool ferreting out what my interests were. I fell in love with Claremont's Excalibur and the rest is history.)
Then there are the women who already travel in the geek crowd. I think they will tell you they are just as welcome in comic book stores and gaming as anyone. And this is because they've already crossed that threshold.
And that reminds me of a situation I found myself in once upon a time. I was going to school where only 10% of the students were female. Every single female I spoke with had a story of being harassed or mistreated. Every one. That's when I realized that it would only take 1 man out of 9 to say or do something insensitive or inappropriate just once each for 100% of the women to be accounted for. Try getting a bunch of 18 to 23 year-olds who are seeing the world for the first time to be appropriate and sensitive without fail.
So in an industry like comic books and games and other similar areas that have been predominantly male, it only takes a small percentage of men to be asses for all the women giving it a try to have a bad story to tell. Not until the populations start to reach parity will the truth come out that guys aren't as collectively bad as we are led to believe.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
It wasn't a retcon, because the books were never canon to the movies. Ever.
Who mentioned books?
In the first two starwars movies they're clearly attempting to set up a sort of love triangle. But then in Return of the Jedi they say that Luke and Leia were brother and sister all along.
At least in Empire they make it seem like Luke has a shot. Likely there was absolutely no plan that they were related until Jedi.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
And these still need not even be from the animation itself. They may well be quick sketches by the conceptual artists that are created by the hundreds in short order as they try to nail down the look and feel of each and every character in the series. Once the director / creative lead, okays a concept it goes to the character designer who finalises the design and creates the reference samples and the design bible that the actual animator have to conform to. (probably in cooperation with a 3D artist, even if the show is not going to be drawn in 3D or even on a computer much, because hand drawn cell animation is way too exensive for all but the most certain or the most stylised shows)
Being able to speak from personal experience here (which makes it circumstantial evidence, I know, but my experience is in line with the common complaints so there ...)
The shop owner wants to sell things to every custormer walking in through the door, that is true.
But then it is not the shop owner who makes women feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. It is the male customers loitering about. Though in my case the shopkeeper was guilte of the later without realising it through being rather condescending towards me.
There were a few not quite drooling stares (even though I was wearing jeans and a tee under a short jacket because it was a bit chilly outside). And yes, that is creepy and I involuntarily checked if I had my little can of mace in my purse just in case even knowing that it was extreme social ineptitude and not genuine creepyness. It still felt creepy and a little scary to me and I could not help worry a little that one of them might want to follow me)
The shop owner automatically assumed I was there for the pink section (He tried to steer me to Sailor Moon since that was still popular at the time even though I was way past the age group that show was intended for. When expressed interest in sci-fi manga he immediately asked what kind of shows my boyfriend watched)
The two guys at the sci-fi section discussing a series didn't want to allow me to pass and clearly didn't want me to intrude on their little fiefdom.
So yes, I got all the negative experiences at my first visit. None of it was overly hostile, but the overall vibe of the place was 'girl on deck' and 'you do not belong here'
My second visit was not as bad, but it still did not make me feel all that welcome.
The last visit ever had some young man angrily questioning me about why I wanted to buy an issue of a particularl (high tech) series. As if I had to justify myself to him and he had a right to deny my 'geek' credentials. Ironically, that was an issue my then boyfriend had asked me to pick up for him. The shopkeeper interfered but the other customers clearly sided with angry boy to a lesser or greater extent. Needless to say I left without buying and told my boyfriend he would have to buy his own manga from then on.
I am sure my experience is a bit on the extreme side of things (and not all visits in between were particularly bad), and if only I had conformed to the expectations of the geek crowd there and limited myself to the girl section, it would have remained limited to being undressed with the eyes of half the customers. which sadly isn't all that different from just walking down the street in my every day clothes). But unfortunately it was not particularly unusual either.
* * *
And for the guys who have a hard time understanding just how unwelcoming stares and the vibe of 'you do not belong her' can be, I suggest going to the nearest Victoria's Secret or other specialty lingerie shop, and buy a set. Not for your girlfriend but for yourself. Technically you have every right to do so, and equally technically the shopkeeper wants your money. In practice I don't expect the women in the shop will let you feel that way.
Unfortunately, Nadira, situations such as you described are all too common.
Men will often attempt to check the credentials of any female fan. It's rarely "Oh, you like this thing me too!" It's usually, "Oh, you say you're a fan of this? Well..." Followed by questions about the fandom.
This has become known as Gatekeeping and is fairly common.
Same as most men that see a woman sporting any sort of geek/nerdy paraphernalia will assume that said woman doesn't know anything about the source material. Also happens with band shirts.
Men, as a whole, need to do better.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Hey! watch where you're going with that "most men" crap. I take personal offense at that. Reverse discrimination is still discrimination.
I think you will find the VAST majority of men do not exhibit those behaviors. And I would be willing to stake my reputation that 'gatekeeping' is more a product of men being happy and trying to see if its not too good to be true than any protectionist agenda. Granted both stem from the disbelief that a woman can be interested in nerdy things; but like most profiling, stereotypes and cliches they come from some basis in historical truth and typically need to be disproven before they are truly given up at the personal level. Exceptions prove the rule in most cases as well.
Rather, I think you will find that most men, nay most people, would behave the same when faced with someone of any gender who states they are as much a fan of something as they are. People take pride in their interests, whether those interests are sports, astronomy or comic books; and they won't accept any poser as a peer.
Also remember that you usually find what you're looking for if you look hard enough. Any form of treatment can be seen as sexist if viewed through a sexist lens and not verified with a control group.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Gatekeeping happens with nerd stuff, sports, bands, and pretty much anything that is stereotypically a male thing. I wonder what the underlying connection between them all could be.
It's doesn't stem from being happy. When a male fan sees another male fan of a thing they talk about it like equals or show eachother respect. When a male fan sees a female fan of a thing, they are talked down to, questioned to prove their fan credentials, and generally not shown respect.
It's a problem with men.
A man sees a man with a Batman shirt they assume he's a fan. They see a girl with a Batman shirt she needs to prove she's a fan. That is the difference.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
I still doubt you. Just because you say it is so, does not make me believe it. Perhaps we just travel in different circles.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
In a world where "diversity" means "exclude straight white males", we wind up with threads like this, and arguing over nonsense...
[color=red]PR Team, Forum Moderator, Live Response Team[/color]
Could just as easily be misunderstandings.
You undressing her with your eyes?
No. Just curious what she's into.
Well, she thinks you're undressing her with her eyes. So stop it.
What? That's only for 9 and 10s, she's clearly a 4. Time to see if she's really a fan!
And thus began the misunderstandings! \o/
Oh yes, heaven forbid there is only white men in 90% of things instead of 99%.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Wow, that's terrible on multiple levels.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
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