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Yeah I guess I’ve just assumed this is the case since most games that give you varying abilities generally allow a degree of “power bar” customization. This was especially true of COH, so I’m thinking um yeah we will likely have a good deal of control over the “power bar”.
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
While I don't plan on using it, the "soft lock" targeting will be retacle-like enough to add a bit of actiony feel, and should also allow more flexible usage for those with special needs or who simply like to use other interfaces.
Edit/PS- Question: Will the soft lock be able to select objects like SWL does with retacles? If so, that would make it that much more adaptable to potentially play on handsets, tablets, or for alternative needs.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Eh. I'm of two minds of this. On one hand, I get wanting something to be more actiony. On the other, I loved thorwin g a punch in CoH, and actually feeling heft behind it, a moment to plat the feet all that stuff.
If you listen to that [url=https://youtu.be/7HJFAz0Nmbo?t=2314]video/podcast[/url], your concern is actually addressed by Warcabit. He said basically that while a lot of the quick jabs will not root you, your big attacks will require you to plant your feet to deliver. And a lot of that was to give you the sense of power we felt in CoX.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Something that I would like (and is kind of an odd idea) is spacers in the power bars. Hear me out, this is a little odd.
When playing MMOs I like to group my powers. Single target damage rotation there, AoE Damage options a little down the same bar, next bar down has defense and then buff powers, set my random management powers off to the side, etc. I suspect a lot of people do this, though I haven't exactly asked around.
However, I like my groups to be spaced out a little, so I don't lose track of what's in what group. As a result, I tend to put empty spaces between my groupings. This obviously leaves me with less actually useful spaces, because I'm using some for spacing. BUT, if there was spacers I could put in the power bars, I wouldn't feel a need for those blanks. And it doesn't have to be a really solid space, just || or something. Just enough to compartmentalize them.
The main downside I can think of (other than the bother to code the thing) is that this might change the length of power bars depending on how many spacers there are in a bar. I assume that spaces would have a regular width (1/4th a slot or something) but it might still bug people to have one bar that's 1/4th a slot longer than the others. On the other hand, if there's already a little padding between the power spaces, maybe just adding a line between two spaces would be enough and literal space wouldn't need to be added.
Under Construction...
Rather than spaces, how about we just have the ability to customize the size of every bar on the UI. That way, you could effectively have two bars, one with 4 buttons and one with 6 buttons, side by side where a ten-button bar would otherwise have been. Since we can hot-key every button, it wouldn't feel any different.
I know of at least one other game with such a feature, although I can't remember which one I played most recently. I think it is SWTOR. But If I remember correctly, City of Heroes let us do this, too. I could go into Paragon Chat to verify.... (Edit: CoX allowed us to change the geometry of our bars, but not the size)
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
The issue with that is there's typically a maximum number of bars (though I do do that some in ToR, issue is that the number of bars available to a F2P player is pretty low). That said, I will admit that I never used the full number of bars in CoH, so maybe it would work. I guess it depends on some things and would need testing.
Under Construction...
True but another option similar to that proposed by Huckleberry is to make it so you can grid the power bars however you like, ie. Make the bar 5x2 instead of 10x1 or 4x3 instead of 12x1 etc. Many MMOs allow this today; I've played a few.
Then you could group a 'set' of powers on 1 bar and another 'set' on a 2nd bar and place them adjacent to each other but with a natural visual 'break'. Or you could put them on different parts of the screen.
I tend to use a combination of this and binding certain types of abilities to certain keys. So my R bind is always a closer type ability, my E is a slow, my Q an interrupt, etc. Sometimes I have to change it up depending on class abilities and game, but I can usually make it work to type once I've figured out my options.
So there are ways and means
of Phoenix Rising
Am I
That's conflicting information, I've seen posts by MWM personel describing things for the combat system COH definitely did not have.
For me, power bars are important because with a few exceptions I am BAD at remembering keybinds (and I've got clumsy fingers). As a result, while I appreciate keybind options I'm not liable to use them as much as others, making the on-screen presentation of the power trays important to me. That said, I'm not too worried about it because user interface and accessibility has been said to be a high priority several times.
Under Construction...
Aye, that's why I said 'Not exactly the same (soft-lock option and less rooting)'. Still, at the core we've been told it should feel very familiar to players of the old game.
Spurn all ye kindle.
The game you’re thinking of [i]is[/i] The Old Republic.
You can have a large number of bars, place them anywhere you want, and choose how many slots you want in them. You can also save that arrangement to a template and load it onto another character, or have different layouts on different characters.
Target Systems, vary a lot, as many people have said. Though one aspect of targeting, is what kind of player base does MWM want?
The twitch style as a lot of people call it, with the target zones can be nice. Though it punishes people with slower reaction times. It does keep away a lot of the casual type of players. Those players can be the most fun to play with.
Tab targeting, keeps a lot of the people away who crave fast action. They tend to be more FPS, TPS and PvP'ers.
Which system is best, is hard to answer. Both styles work great for different types of games. Even some of the hybrid systems are good. Though, some start to get way to complex with how they work. There is really so much to look at. Some people will not play a game unless it has certain items. I have a friend, that I have been gaming with since 04ish. I love playing with him, but he will not play any style of a twitch targeting system. He needs a game that has a controlled pace to it. As he has kids and well anyone who has kids knows. You may not have the ability to fully give everything to the game. Another friend, does not like tab targeting, though he will play it. If enough of the group of people we are in are playing it. Though he wants a speed, kill, kill, kill, kill, faster, faster, faster type game. Where you go for long blocks of time fighting. Two totally different play styles that both bring in value to a game.
Plus targeting brings in game flow issues. In a raid type setting, is it lots of CC or do you have pullers that keep a flow of trash mobs coming to the group? Is it a mix of both, where the CCers have to watch the people pulling, and lock down mobs as they bring them in?
I think my biggest issue with telegraph type games, is being a healer. You drop down your heal, everyone see's it and reacts. Some jump out of it with out thinking, because there is something on the ground. Then there is the tanking side of it. A large spinning telegraph is on the ground going clockwise. The boss spawns a group of adds to your left. Do you bolt threw it, to get the adds?
Play style of the game is the main factor for choosing a targeting system.
Plenty of casual players manage to play games with the "twitch" system, and do so with a reasonable degree of efficiency. I completely disagree with the notion that it drives away casual players. IMO it expands the potential playerbase by appealing to a new generation of gamers for whom the ancient slow system is just not enough, or to those of the older generation who's expectations have evolved with the genre.
I have nothing against "twitch" based games. They have their place and there are plenty of them out there to choose from.
But since CoT is going to be a "spiritual successor" to CoH and because CoH was [b]not[/b] twitch based it only makes sense there's no good reason CoT needs (or should) be twitch based. It's got nothing to do with "casual versus serious" players or anything silly like that.
If the Devs of CoT thought there was a need to make a "twitch based version of CoH" to succeed then why bother even pretending CoT has anything to do with CoH? CoH did not specifically fail because it was not twitchy - its playerbase was actually doing pretty well numbers-wise when NCsoft arbitrarily decided to pull the plug.
CoT is being created to deliver an experience as close to CoH as possible. If you'd prefer a game that's more twitchy perhaps you need to be looking for another game.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
To add to what Lothic said.
Being a twitch game is way different from having the option of using a twitch-like control scheme.
Yeah, twitch vs tab targeting is the kind of thing where you really want the right one for the right game, but both are good if done well. A twitch-aim superhero game might be lots of fun, in fact, but it's not the goal of this game. In my mind it's like the controller vs keyboard debate: in the end both are good, but for different styles of games.
Personally, I'm not going to ponder the soft lock system too hard before we have something to play. That's something whose usefulness will rely so deeply on the 'feel' of the mechanic it's not going to be useful to speculate. I could feasibly see it being useful under certain situations (managing aggro on a large group, maybe) but it will depend on the details enough that we're going to have to wait for the result.
Under Construction...
I actually agree... a twitch-aim superhero game might be interesting. But such a game would not be a spiritual successor to CoH.
As far as what type of "controller" you could use for CoT goes I'd have no problem with them allowing for a console type controller as an alternative to keyboard/mouse. But again it would not be a spiritual successor to CoH if such a console-styled controller was the -primary- form of control for this game.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I believe the MWM goal is 'Access', such that young children and older adults can both enjoy playing the game without being hampered by 'twitch' issues. One of the better parts of playing CoH was the age-range of the players and community. Making the game more 'Accessible' also allows those with handicaps to play more easily. 'Twitch' systems sometimes make things more difficult for the 'differently able'. I, for one, enjoy 3D sound design, But it's not the best thing, with my hearing impairment, if Sound is used to convey critical information. I Was able to track down 'Blinkies' in CoH, by their sound, but it wasn't a pleasant passtime, particularly if there was a time-pressure.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Neverwinter Online is an aim-and-target game on the Xbox (which works well with a controller) and it does this without changing anything about the way the mechanics work compared to the tab targeting of the PC game.
When The Secret World was relaunched as Secret World Legends, most of the game is identical to the original but it became a FPS targeting game. While the combat system did get overhauled, that was part of an attempt to change the feel of the game and wasn’t needed to support the targeting system.
As long as you don’t make it a full twitch experience (headshots do extra damage, limb shots cripple, etc.) then I see no reason why you can’t have a twitchy control scheme as an option rather than the default. It really does feel more like a twitch game without having to change anything else.
I agree with Lothic by the way. Making CoT into a full twitch experience would be too dramatic a change from CoH. It would never happen, not unless they pull a TSW-SWL change years down the road.
I loved things like V.A.T.S. in the Fallout series (where things like headshots did do more damage, etc.). CoT is simply not going to be a game that has anything like a V.A.T.S. Apples and Oranges.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
The devs were going to do, what the devs were going to do, no matter what anyone wants.
That said, nothing says that CoT needs to play like CoH to be a spiritual successor. CoT could be totally different and even way more awesome and still be a spiritual successor. It's all in the fact that the only reason CoT got made, was because CoH got shut down. That's the spiritual successor part.
If we're going to say copying CoH is what makes it a spiritual successor, then we need some NPCs who remind us of the ones from CoH and so far, none of them do to me.:p We going to get war walls too? Call them, "City Walls"
The key of course is the question of what constitutes "way more awesome" to you, me or anyone else.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Brand X is entirely correct, a game can have better combat than COH and still be a spiritual successor. it's not going to be a clone.
To me being a spiritual successor means that there is something in the successor that instantly makes me think of the predecessor. In this specific case MWM has copied the general design behind the ability structure, ability design and character/ability progression. If we disregard the war walls (which can be attributed to the technological limitations from back then, and due to the differences in Lore) then they have also copied the general look and feel of CoH, which to some degree include the feel of combat.
Most likely going between a turn-based game and a full twitch-based FPS one would not generate the same "connection" between them if one claimed to be a spiritual successor of the other since it's very hard to capture the same "spirit" in them.
Being a spiritual successor is more about copying and improving on the essence of the old game than it is about copying specific mechanics or implementations. The simplest way though to capture that essence though is to at least copy the mechanics and/or settings that was unique to the predecessor. It's not so much about if they should "copy" something but rather about how much they need to "copy".
Again I would argue that your interpretation of the word "better" in this case is completely subjective.
Obviously CoT is not going to be a 100% carbon-copy clone of CoH but that doesn't mean it has to be made arbitrarily different "just because".
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Smoother rotation in animation attacks. When I attack, it'd feel more like BnS and less like...TOR? :p
I want fancier attacks, not attacks that look slow and boring. :p
It sounds like CoT is leaning towards a hybrid system or giving players an option to pick between them, have I got that right?
I love that, though it sounds like more work to implement.
Each system has some benefits.
My personal favorite is probably what SMITE uses, a sort of reticle and template hybrid. It feels very smooth and natural and would translate very well to a superhero game. SMITE is essentially already that honestly, it even has basic equivalents in character classes/powers with tanks, range and melee damage, control, etc. It naturally allows for more active and interesting combat as there is a lot of movement and positioning matters.
The only downside to that system as I see it is that it requires constant input from players, you can't just select a target and press one button with one finger every now and then. This is pretty much the only benefit of everquest style oldschool tab targeting. As a long time EQ player I don't hate that system, but it really isn't that interesting and leads to less interesting gameplay. The reason for this is that the player is required to handle specific target selection, and that changes the focus and flow of combat. A targetless system means the powers themselves are aimed and the player spends more time and attention on situational awareness, positioning, and power use. It also means aiming powers with templates becomes much more natural since those templates go exactly where you point right now rather than locking onto a specific target.
If the game had SMITE combat I would be in love. If it had options for both tab targeting and SMITE combat, I think everyone in the world would be in love.
The system is optional. You can switch between the rectical-softlock tonhard lock system and traditional tab targeting system.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Oh so a system is already decided on and in place then. Cool!
I'm curious as to how "soft" the retical softlock system can be. Does it lock onto a target once selected and we need intervene, tab or otherwise, in order to select a new target to lock on to, a la champions online? Or can we turn around 180 degrees mid combat and aim a power in a different direction and have it shoot off that way at a new target, despite having previously targeted something that would now be behind us, without having to tab?
How about the best of both worlds, fluid soft reticle targeting with a button that lets us manually control target lock on or release target lock? That would give the benefits of reticle and tab targeting at the same time, and would help get around the issue tab targeting has when trying to pick a specific target out of a crowd.
Sounds like CoT won't use any kind of "targetless" system like SMITE, but a soft targeting system could have nearly all the same benefits.
The soft lock part is when you hover your recticle on a target it remains there until you decide to over it over another target.
Once you activate a power it locks into the selected target until the power activation completes.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Thanks Tannim! I am curious if targets remain locked after a power finishes, or the player is returned to reticle soft lock target selection.
Giving the player the option to toggle that lockon with a button press opens up further possibilities regardless of how it works by default, too. You could get the accurate targeting and ease of picking out a specific target among a group that reticle targeting provides, then lock on that target and essentially switch to tab targeting mode with all the benefits that provides. This would be beneficial in situations where the player needs to pick an important target in a chaotic and target rich environment and then focus fire on it, freeing up their attention from aiming to focus on other issues. Then once that target is dealt with, or the player determines something else is a more immediate problem, they can tab target switch or hit the lock on toggle to manually target another threat, whichever feels more natural.
Basically my question is whether they can fluidly use such a system in the heat of the moment rather than going into a menu and locking into one or the other.
Or perhaps I misunderstood and soft targeting is the only method being used, and whether stays locked on after a power completes or not that there is only that one target selection method.
I'm just excited about CoT and looking forward to seeing it in action like everyone else. I realize now that this topic seems to have been finalized and I'll see the end result when CoT is ready to show off to the public.
Sounds like how “mouseover” works in WoW (which I think I brought up earlier in this thread). Which is nice, that’s a popular feature in that game, especially among healers who need to change targets frequently and quickly to keep party members alive.
Wait, if I’m reading that right, it’s not the same exactly because I’m pretty sure in WoW you lose the target when your mouse is no longer on it. This soft lock seems much better. I can’t wait to try it out.
Sounds much closer to DCUO to me, though it would be nice to have a way to "hard lock" on a target as well so that you don't have to have a "perfect" targeting.
Wouldn't "tab-locking" your "soft lock" equal a "hard lock"?
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Yeah, this is basically what I was thinking about when I started babbling about hybrid targeting and having a hotkey that would switch modes.
I’d love it if I could soft lock but hard lock with the Tab key. I’m just wondering if you’d then undo the hard lock by pressing Tab again, or if Tab would hard lock the next enemy and you’d have to do something else to switch back to soft lock...
You would ideally want two different keys for that. One to "lock on" which basically switches targeting modes while keeping the same target. And then a second key (traditionally tab) that lets you manually switch targets if you are in hardlock (tab target) mode.
The action targeting is a separate targeting mode from the tab-target. They aren’t inter-compatible. Once you switch out from the action-targeting the soft lock is gone and you are In the tab-lock mode.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Back in CoH you could actually adjust the "target priorities" of your tab-locks with keybind commands. You could set keys up to "hardlock the closest targets first", "hardlock the farthest targets first" and so on. As I recall there were many different "[url=https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Target_custom_next_%28Slash_Command%29]custom cycling schemes[/url]" you could define as desired.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
So you wouldn't be able to bind a key to switch between modes? If you can switch between them via menu surely a keybinding to do the same instantly would be possible?
Or do you mean you could do that, but it wouldn't keep your current target selected?
In action targeting mode, once a power completes does your target remain locked or do you resume reticle soft lock targeting? From your last detail about them being purely separate modes it sounds like players would immediately resume reticle targeting once a power finishes. Otherwise the modes would not be very distinct, since hard locking onto a target is a major feature of tab targeting.
I apologize for the deluge of questions on a topic that will be obvious in a few seconds once we get a chance to see things in action ourselves. I'm just really excited for CoT.
And yes Lothic you're right, lots of games have had options and extra keys for ways to select targets. Those are also useful!
One thing I didn't see discussed here but I'm 90% sure I saw elsewhere is mention of target-of-target and smart targeting, something I seem to remember CoH having that was ahead of it's time. Basically you could target a friendly and trigger an offensive power which would automatically be aimed at that friendly's target, without dropping that friendly from your target. Or you could target a bad guy and throw a heal, and it would automatically go to whatever friendly the bad guy was focusing on while still allowing you to keep your aim on the bad guy. I am pretty sure I already read this sort of thing would be in CoT.
I don’t think that is what he meant. Just that they won’t automatically switch from one to the other by simply pressing the tab key after an action lock to initiate tab lock.
I think you will be able to set a keybind. They have mentioned several times that keybinding will be available.
And yeah that target-of-target was a great feature!
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
Obligatory reminder of what this sort of thing MIGHT look like in terms of UI design principles. You have a "boresight" located in the center of the screen (that stays in the center of the screen) and you've got a "lock on" indicator that sticks to your designated target that tells both the game engine and the Player ... THAT ONE.
[youtube]HEGIQ6JxU0E[/youtube]
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
We already have the UI for the target lock system.
rockslide has the right of it when it comes to switching between modes.
And we will have affect the target of the group / friendly character I am targeting.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Things that require accuracy and "action style" attacking can be problematic, I think. For instance, this is an MMORPG, not a competition eSport or FPS game. In an FPS game, you have to be accurate with your shots and lead targets with your gun, aim your AoE rocket propelled grenade attack at the target's feet instead of their chest/head so as to get the target in the AoE blast, etc.
A friend of mine who plays Overwatch tells me the they recently nerfed one character in that game because of an exploit they (the devs) didn't like. Apparently (and this is all second hand, so let me know where I'm technically not accurate if you want to) there was one attack that was basically a single shot that when it hits its target, it spawns a bunch of secondary shots that spray out in a cone forward from the point of impact of the original shot. People were, I think predictably, pointing the original shot at the ground in front of the intended target's feet so as to make it go "cone" there and thus hit the intended target with ALL of the secondary shots before they could spread out too far (and thus get better damage). Kind of in the same spirit as Diablo I when you'd get right up next to a monster so ALL of your Charged Bolts would hit it before they go randomly walking around the room.
This is where the action game really shows it's competitive sports gameyness in a bad way, I feel. People are playing it like a sport and trying to eke out every possible advantage, as people will do in a competitive sport. In an RPG game, I would want less/none of this type of (literally) angle shooting.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I don't want to fire demons (accurately) at my enemy's head (actually, I DO!) Nah, I want to target and SUMMON fiery demons into my enemy's underwear! Then the accuracy is defined by the Target. Thus, I'm not 'aiming' at my target, but 'designating' my target for an effect... we can call it 'Underworld Intrusion'. Again, it's not a matter of aiming a device at my target, but designating a target for my effect.
Be Well!
Fireheart
We're just talking about targeting methods. I assume (maybe I'm wrong?) the powers will behave the same way regardless of how we end up selecting a target, it just comes down to ease of use for the player. Even CoH had powers you had to aim to some degree, like ground templates and cones.
If you're worried about the speed and aim players might need in order to play, that comes down to how fast or slow combat in general is going to be, something we have no real information on yet. I remember devs saying they are trying to make CoT easy to play regardless of age or ability so we probably don't need to worry about needing ninja speed reflexes to play.
If you're on edge because I mentioned SMITE, I only mentioned it because of the combat targeting style it uses.
As for people exploiting games in ways developers didn't forsee in order to get an advantage? People will do that regardless of genre.
Let's hope it's not slower than CoH, and being a newer game, maybe a little faster :p
Powers are the same regardless of which targeting system you choose to play with. There is nothing that you can do to manually aim to score a better hit rate, crit rate, or reduce miss rate. It is purely a preference of play option.
@Radiac, the change to that hero in Overwatch was something that many players moaned about. However it should be noted that the tutorial video showed that aiming at the ground to get maximum spread was a valid tactic.
The thing with that hero was that one ability practically defined the hero. That if you weren’t foot-aiming, you were doing it wrong.
That is something we want to be careful of when we design powers for sets as well. That if they are deemed “only use it this way or it’s wrong” can be detrimental to the rest of the set.
Onvisously we have more leeeway with our game as the basis isntsb targeting and a large array of abilities to use. But the lesson behind it is the same.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Good point. Plenty of games have excellent combat tempo (smite comes to mind again) and having it be too slow would make things pretty humdrum. Especially early when you have relatively few powers, which is the same time people are getting their first impression of the game. I suppose that could be helped by having early content involve some free temp powers and/or interesting fight mechanics as part of the missions. The overall speed does matter though, you're right. Too fast and people have trouble playing, too slow and they look for something more interesting to do with their time.
This could also tweaked by having some power sets with high or lower speeds for those that prefer it, and more/less aimed powers like cones and placeables.
Perhaps during character creation sets could be summarized with a short phrase that is obvious to the player in the GUI, like "difficulty of play: medium" or something to describe how much speed, attention, positioning, and awareness it generally requires to play it effectively.
Tannim if I didn't target anyone and I press a power, does it automatically target the closest one? That's a feature I would really like, even more if you could customize what to auto-target in that case from the options.
I hope it DOES NOT do this.
I hope powers don't target anyone unless they are actually targeted. (or highlighted):Soft targeting would count for this, which is definitely a benefit of it. I don't want the game deciding which opponent my character attacks if I the player can't tell by the GUI info provided.
Customizing your powers with a macro so that you auto target closest when you execute a particular power should always be a viable option, but even in such a case the act of targeting is a deliberate act.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
City of Heroes did that, Champions Online too, DCUO being action too. The premise is that the player didn't target anything but pressed a power, it's not like it changes the one you targeted.
Also if customizable I guess you could select "auto target closer target" (best for melee) or "never auto target" (best for healer? That prefers to not waste the heal because he forgot to target first?) or "auto target in the "crosshair"/aim direction" (best for ranged).
As I mentioned yesterday CoH did provide detailed [url=https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Targeting_Commands]customized targeting commands[/url] so that you could, for example, always choose to target the closest enemy. Hopefully CoT will also give us this kind of flexibility. But as Huckleberry implied that was always based on manual "tab targeting" - it wouldn't just let you mash a power button without first already having something targeted.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Mmh true, I had a macro probably with it in City of Heroes (thanks to the closest-target button). Anyway City of Heroes was much slower pace, City of Titans wants us constantly on the run and not blocked while using our powers, that means that pressing two buttons while you may just need one does a huge difference, for melee even more (but I see that useful for ranged too, since those are the ones with pistols etc. and maybe want to experience the game in a more fps-style, that would permit it).
It's incredible how many mmorpgs don't even let us customize the button to target the closest target (Archeage is the first that comes to my mind).
That's where the soft "[url=https://cityoftitans.com/comment/147996#comment-147996]action targeting[/url]" thing will probably come in handy.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Nothing would stop the player to actually target a specific one before using a power, I would. But I don't need to be always that specific/strategic when I just want to punch the only thug in close range or shoot the only thug in front of me... imho we should just press the power and be done with it, in that case.
Right but again if you could just mash a power button without giving -any- conscious thought to targeting that would likely be crossing into "too easy" botting territory as far as the Devs are concerned. Apparently the Devs WANT us to have to target what we shoot at, even if all that involves is pointing at a target with the mouse.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Maybe it's a faulty memory but I'm certain there was an option in CoH for so that it could target nearest enemy within view and range if you activated an offensive ability without already having a target. Though I'm less certain on if you would target + fire on one click or if you had to do two clicks, once for target and a second for fire.
Aiming at a target and having a power lock on would feel very different from staring at the floor or sky, pressing a power, and having your character spin around and lock on to a target you couldn't see. As Lothic mentioned, it would feel robotic and disconnected from the player. You wouldn't feel like you were actually making decisions or playing a game as much as it was playing itself.
Yes but that would mean that I can just hit the targets in front of me (it's not bad, but I sympathize with CoH permitting to punch the guys behind you automatically turning your character, which didn't feel robotic but cinematic).
When you're in the center of the battle, the need to aim around you when you desire to punch here and there, makes the battle less cinematic and more chaotic. At that point I'd prefer to press the "closest target" button, which doesn't make the situation better (because in all other situations the action-mode with the cross-hair targeting would be better/faster).
Imho an option to auto-target when pressing a power would make the game more action for those who want it, of course you would still need to target a specific opponent when you want to use a strategy (kill the healer/damage dealer first or things like that), but when no strategy is involved... I see the need to target first as useless. If the player press a power button it means he wants to use it in that istant.
Again it's always possible the Devs of CoT will want to specifically avoid/prevent this because it would make it too easy to create effective bot characters.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Right but if you limit this auto-targeting to play by the exact same rules as manual tab-targeting then I think 95+% of the "problems" would be solved, as in if you can't target it manually by pressing tab then it shouldn't be possible to auto-target as well.
It seems that many think this would require an intricate or even separate system but the way I would do it would be to just do a automatic tab-target action upon power activation if you don't have a target (and this [b]option[/b] enabled). It would consistently produce the exact same result as if you had manually pressed the tab button (with no target selected) before activating a power.
IIRC COH did let you press a power to initiate targeting but it had the same effect as pressing the tab button when nothing was yet targeted. It just selected the target next press launches the power. This is nice if you are in a rush, being late to a party and needing to start helping out a teammate or something, but if preparing for a team battle it was nice to be able to tab to your preferred target since sometimes there were too many targets walking around to select one with the mouse.
Generally I prefer using the tab method or target-of-target method. Especially as a blaster you never want to draw all the aggro off the tank it’s just bad form. These methods usually kept me from making that mistake.
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
Auto-targeting could be cool if linked to specific powers, not as part of normal targeting. It could help a power feel unique and potent if you could line up a series of targets to unleash on, or have targets automatically selected for you for a duration.
Like the death blossom from the last starfighter.
[youtube]MLNvUsTBGyE[/youtube]
Ok let's get really into topic, for the Devs this time.
Developers should NEVER choose to make an action with two buttons when the same action can be done with one, the reasons:
- Adding buttons for no reasons doesn't make the game more difficult, it just makes the game more annoying.
- Adding buttons for no reasons doesn't make the game more strategic, because in that case you need to develop more possible strategies, not increase the number of buttons to press.
- Doing the same action with one button instead of two doesn't make the game more easy, it makes the game more appealing and straightforward. If we could simply input our mind into the game (true virtual reality) it wouldn't make the games more easy or too easy, it would make them funnier.
Because the difficulty must be decided by the in-game "environment", not the inputs nor the interface. When a developer is increasing the difficult by making the inputs more complicated, he is simply doing it wrong.
What should be achieved in any game is: "Easy inputs, environment with increased difficulty" which translates in "easy to start, difficult to master".
The devs should find the way to permit (with a specific balance in mind) the most possible freedom for the minimum amount of inputs usage by the player.
Now going back to targeting, what I suggested doesn't affect balance, nor forces strategic players to become less strategic. It simply permits a player that doesn't want to use strategy to actually press one button instead of two. That will come in handy for all kind of players, because the situation where there is no targeting-strategy involved and you simply need to put down one opponent will be very constant in the game, for example with the last opponent of a group.
If you (player) fear to get bored because you press one button instead of two for doing a punch or shooting a laser, the actual better solution is to insert other layers of things to do (not to increase the buttons for no reason), which City of Titans already does because you're expected to MOVE while attacking (CoH didn't) and if it's not enough they can add "strategy" in other ways not by overcomplicating things that can be simpler.
Plus, auto-targeting (closer opponent, or aimed opponent, or deactivated option) when you press a power and you didn't target somebody your-self, is a suggestion that goes in accord with their intent to make the game easier to play (not to master) for all kind of players with disabilities.
Their action-mode already does that partially (the "aimed opponent" part) as Lothic was pointing out, but not all of it, why not permit the "closer opponent" too among the options.
Don't shoot the messenger. Hopefully a Redname will clarify what the design motivation behind all this is. *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Without a quote, I don't know what you mean by "that" in your following post (emphasis provided by me):
But if you are saying that City of Heroes automatically hit the closest enemy when you pressed a power, then that is not true the way you stated it.
The actual way that CoX worked was as soon as you entered combat "mode", City of Heroes automatically [b][i]Targeted[/i][/b] the closest enemy. You could not just activate a power without a targeted enemy. You probably just never noticed or cared that a target had been highlighted for you. That is what MWM is calling soft targeting. So it might seem to have skipped the targeting part of that process, it didn't.
That might seem like an inconsequential difference to some, especially if they don't particularly care which one of the four thugs in your face you want to hit.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
* cough *
Tier 9 Nuke power.
* cough *
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
About City of Heroes doing that automatically I was remembering wrong, I admitted that already while replying to Lothic, I used options and macros to achieve that (still because CoH devs permitted it, they included the "closest-target" button in the possibilities, in other games you simply couldn't).
That won't change anything, because:
1) If City of Titans doesn't permit to achieve it in anyway, we got a problem that City of Heroes didn't have.
2) Also City of Heroes made you stand still most of the time, you moved after/before attacking not in the middle most of the time. City of Titans already declared in several ways they permit us to move which will translate in "expecting us to move".
3) It would still be an improvement over the past, reasons in my previous post.
I already told all of this before, I think my last long post contains everything devs and players may need on this topic (including your fear to press fewer buttons Huckleberry, my reply to that is in there), I won't repeat my self over and over. Whoever wants to know my full opinion, please read my long post before this one.
My biggest problem with auto-targeting is when the enemy I'd been attacking drops unexpectedly... and then my auto-targeting locks onto the enemy way over there, quietly chatting with her spawn group, as my last attack intended for the guy that dropped streaks toward her... and we still have most of this group to finish off still.
So, if there is auto-targeting, please have it switchable, or at least having a preference for enemies that are already aggravated.
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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That wasn't any fear I expressed, I don't think. I shouldn't get the credit for bringing that up. Not that I disagree. I do agree that is a noble goal. Actually, I think you introduced that idea to this thread in post #[url=https://cityoftitans.com/comment/148106#comment-148106]326[/url]
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
A couple of things:
We aim to mimic much of not all the options you had in the tab-target mode of our game that exist d in the old game.
I reserve the right to say that things may change depending upon any differences in design.dor example -
We have targeting limited to a fixed Perception range (you won’t be able to target an enemy across a large map just because they are on your screen). We are playing with options for LoS checking.
The Perception range of your character is. It just “what is in front” so don’t worry about the issue of an enemy right behind you and turning to attack it with “attack nearest”.
The action targeting system breaks things from tab targeting in certain respects. With this, it now requires you to have a selected soft-target before you hard lock by pressing a power.
We do have plans for a very robust macroing system. We may not have it all ready by launch with the UI we plan for it (yes we have plans!) but at the least there will be commands.
With regards to speed of combat:
If anyone recalls from the Power Set update there are theee speed paramters we use in the game that dictate things like cast, recharge, effect over time rate, etc.
The general pacing is slightly faster than the old game so far as activation period is concerned. The basic combat loop - and I mean at the very, very foundational level which is an unprotected player character against unprotected NPCs each using one power is the same combat loop as the old game as far as time is concerned.
Which means as you start off with at least 2 basic attack powers in the game, you already quicken the pace. It ramps up a bit from there but levels off as tougher bad guys come into play.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
My memory is fading, but that sounds about right: in the old game activating a power once put the character into combat mode and targeted the nearest enemy, and I think one had to activate the power a second time to actually attack. I think. (Man I can't believe it's been over 5 years already.) Of course, we're just talking targeted powers here; a non-targeted, character-based-AoE power (for example) could be activated without a target specified.
Agreed, with a point of clarification. In the old game if one were staring at the floor or sky, [i]pressed a key to target an enemy[/i], and then activated a targeted power, the character did spin around to face the target and attack. I'm pretty sure MWM has said CoT will reproduce that behaviour in CoT, which makes me very happy. That was one of my favourite aspects of combat in the old game.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Can you explain this further please Tannim? If there's an enemy stabbing me in the back with a short knife and I press Target Nearest, are you saying it will target enemies who are further away but in front of me instead of targeting the stabbing guy and spinning around to face him with the next attack? If so that's a change from stuff we discussed before and a fundamental change to the nature of combat if we're required to manually face enemies before targeting them.
Spurn all ye kindle.
That is not what I said at all.
If you are tab-targeting and use the “target nearest” your character will select the nearest target, even if it is behind you - as long as it is in the Perception range of the character. Being in Melee range would certainly be in Perception range (as long as you aren't Blinded).
Perception range means that there is a limit to how far away you can select a target. If the target is beyond Perception range you can’t select it. Perception range - at base is much farther than Snipe Range in the front of your character so there is plenty of range there.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Thanks for the reply Tannim; that's good to know. But if that's the case I'm still not sure what you meant by [b]It just “what is in front” so don’t worry about the issue of an enemy right behind you and turning to attack it with “attack nearest”. [/b]
Spurn all ye kindle.
Apologies, there should be a NOT just what is in front (grumbles about not having.enough coffee and walks off to coffee maker)
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Lol, ok. Now it all makes sense, all the way down to the lack of coffee. :-)
Your comment about 'as long as you're not Blinded' has me intrigued. That would be an interesting type of control if a target (either PC or NPC) could still move but be prevented from targeting, so maybe only AoE powers would work. That would add a really different wrinkle to combat.
That reminds me: a while back you said the auto-turn-to-target wasn't implemented in the combat model yet, but was on the list. Can you say if it's in there yet?
Spurn all ye kindle.
Your Perception range is determined by your Awareness. If you look at the example powers, some have Awareness Debuffs. As Awareness is reduced, so is Perception Range, as well has your Miss Rate goes up. If fully debuffed, you can’t “see” and therefore can target an attack causing your attacks to Miss your targets more.
And no, auto-turn to attack isn’t in yet. We are upgrading our combat engine to be compatible with the current version of Unreal and other components had to catch up. We are currently taking out time to prototype the all basic combat mechanics first.
There is a laundry list of Conditions for Powers to operate that we have to code. We prototyped basic tab targeting and our hybrid-action targeting.
Once we’re ready we will integrate those into our combat engine and begin building out functionality.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Cool stuff. Thanks for the details, Tannim.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I love all of this, and good clarification Cinnder, I wanna be able to spin and attack someone beating on my back too!
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Yes, I absolutely want to get my revenge on anyone who has hit me! Near or far. As a Tanker (more often than not), I wished I could set targeting priority not just by distance, but by Aggro. "Who wants to kill me?" Any random target that does Not want to kill me, is one I'm likely to avoid attacking, especially if they're not close by and not attacking me or my team. By the same token, if some mob is trying to kill my squishies, then I want to get in their face!
Be Well!
Fireheart
I fully support the concept that perception range is greater in front of our characters than it is behind our characters and that there will be awareness powers and maybe even awareness tertiaries we can use to expand it. I just spent a half-hour searching for the thread where we discussed this before a year ago and it turns out it was right here in this thread. [url=https://cityoftitans.com/comment/116623#comment-116623]Post #137[/url] is a good center of gravity for that discussion if people want to pick up on it.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Tannim could you elaborate on this just a bit more? I will admit I am [b]very[/b] unfamiliar with the overall method of gamemaking, and I know you guys are a [i]very special[/i] case when it comes this, but one thing is confusing me and I hope you can help:
If you guys are currently prototyping basic combat, is that technically late? Or is it right on time in the grand scheme?
I know you guys had a lot of things planned waaay out in advance, and I know Ashes of Creation also had hilariously basic, crude combat before inputting their actual, planned Combat Mechanics which are also going in now (way after most of their assets and stuff were made). But the more and more I read from your team talking about combat it's all things in the future. I keep seeing phrases like, "we [i]can[/i] do that" or "the plan [i]is[/i] to do ___" and less in the "now" terms of things.
Could you just shine a little light on how this works? Is it something like, you have all the plans on the paper, but you needed the engine and game to be in a certain place before you could actually start implementing, coding, and testing these things? Are you guys where you want to and/or should be?
Tannim, as always, thanks for all you do and the time you put in to be present on the forums here.
Many aspects of combat, the numbers that drive the powers have all been planned out. We have run simulations on our basic combat loop.
When designing support sets and protection powers I’ve plotted out the basic valises and how well sets improve etc...
The same for control powers and how they affect character, etc..
But she it comes to implementing the powers into the game we have to code the Conditions which are special rules and mechanics for powers to function. Stuff like gain bonus damage when a target is under a control effect. The math for how it works was done, now we have to code that all.
As far as schedule - we are moving along at a good pace.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Wait wait wait, where did that come from? That is not the impression I have gotten.
Main reasons being:
We will receive a movement debuff for each attack made in rapid succession, up to the point of rooting us. This is done primarily to limit jousting iirc.
Avoiding attacks by moving will be the exception, not the rule. That is essentially only ground placed effects. There's no active aiming beyond getting cross hair within hit box for soft targeting and movement will not have an effect upon hit/miss calculations.
There is as of launch one power set that increase in effectiveness while remaining still.
That leads me to believe that we aren't really expected to move while attacking but that we do have the freedom to do so for the most part. Unlike CoH MWM doesn't see any good reason to automatically root us when activating any ability but rather saves it for the ones that has much more of a feel or visual impact if rooted than not.
Yes placement will be a big part of strategy but that doesn't necessarily mean constant movement.
You heard it here first: Luggage power set for support and protection! Briefcase Bash! Duffelbag Block! Samsonite Shield! Baggage Carousel Confusion!
(Sorry, I know it's your phone's autocorrect, but I couldn't resist.)
Spurn all ye kindle.
I’m looking forward to seeing the new superhero MMO, Valise Online.
Just as a matter of simplistic expectations, I'd assume that the "low" Tier attacks in any given powerset would tend to be the [i]can be used on the move[/i] type, while some of the "high" Tier attacks (up to and including Nukes) would tend to be the [i]must stop moving to use[/i] type, simply as a basic design philosophy. There would be exceptions, of course (there always are, after all), but that would be default assumption before getting into specifics for each powerset.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
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