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City of Titans Official Question Thread: May-July

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Cyclops
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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Cyclops wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Quite simply, if we had noc models using the same models as pcs, we would be making a single player game with the scale our current maps still in place.
If we have player pets use the same models as player characters, we have to reduce the number of players allowable per instance to accomodate each pet.
Because we want more player characters WITH pets, we habe to use simpler models for player pets.
Using the same models for the majority of npcs and pets simplifies a lot of things under the hood for us and gives us the most amount of flexibility at the same time.
To use the 25 player analogy from ealier, if 1 player summions 6 pets, we'd have to only allow 19 players in the instance. The more players with pets, the less players.
The way we're going gives some capability to customize pets, keeping us capable of creating costume pieces for npcs which can be converted for pcs easily, and maxizes the number of players we can keep together in an area.
Thank you for your patient responses. I do have a question.NPC models: will they have sliders? Can I work on the faces and bodies a bit, or will we have one cookie cutter look?
I plan to play Commanders (when available) no matter what is said. So thanks in advance.
They do have sliders. The NPC's are actually the same PC mesh, just the control and display simplified by removing some of the more GPU-intensive elements. Simpler shaders, fewer sliders, that kind of thing.

Thank goodness! That means most costumes can fit. It also means tall/short, big or small chest/waist, fat/thin, muscles/skinny and different faces will be available.

OK a lot of my fears just went away. Thank you so much.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

You have to remember that they have to, for a lack of a better term, "reserve" resources so that they can accommodate that effectively everyone in that instance is a Commander with all of their pets out. Even if the player limit is just 100 then if all are Commanders with all pets out then that "balloons" to a total of 700 PC models.

They at least need to have separate PC and NPC character models otherwise those resources would be even less available to players. So at least starting out with the NPC model is a good step and maybe some time in the future they can move minions over to the PC model.

Yes I'm incredibly (and painfully) well aware that you have to plan for "worse case" loading scenarios like this. That's practically the cornerstone of what you do in software/systems engineering for -any- scenario like this.

So my point, one more time, is that we are now living in 2017, not 2004. I fully get that the Devs can't just assume that there might only be 100 random individual PCs in an instance but that those 100 might all be Commander players with their pets/minions out and running. My fearful concern is that it appears our Devs have already conceded that CoT will be unable to handle even the plausibly REASONABLE scenario of 100 Commanders and their pets all in one instance. Is that acceptable to you?

We know that CoH had limitations on the "number of entities per instance" and we lived with those limitations because, well, the software technology of the 2004 timeframe forced us to live with those limitations. For example the famous (or infamous) Hamidon Raid from CoH was eventually restricted down to just 50 players because the software running it simply couldn't handle the strain of having more than that in the entire zone. We also know that that same software technology that handles that kind of thing has improved quite a bit in the last 13-15 years since CoH was designed.

So here's my essential question here: Is CoT going to actually take advantage of the improvements and efficiencies in modern software processing to actually allow say (we'll go with what I consider your hyper-conservative) 100 players per instance REGARDLESS if they have PC quality pets/minions or not? Again we were limited to situations in CoH where we could only have (at maximum worst case) 50 Masterminds in The Hive at one time. That was 50 PCs and let's estimate 350ish extra low-quality model minions as a worst case. That was it for 2004 technology. Are we to believe that CoT would not be able to handle a worst case of perhaps 100 Commanders with 600-700 PC-grade quality minions? That's only the equivalent of at worst 800 PCs - that is NOT an outrageous expectation for a game to be able to handle in 2017.

Even if I backed off of my insistence that Commander minions ought to be as complex body model wise as PCs (for full flexibility for customization) having 100 Commanders in one CoT instance would probably mean it would still have to be able to handle the equivalent of say 200 extra PCs (if we make the quick assumption that 700 low quality minions would roughly equate to 200 PC-grade quality minions). So will CoT instances be able to handle at least roughly 300 PCs worth of body models? Sadly it sounds like Tannim is not seriously expecting CoT instances to even be able to handle that much.

So what are we left with? Are we literally going to be stuck back with the limitations we suffered under in CoH as far as this goes? Are we going to have to live with only being able to have at most maybe 50 Commaders all with low quality minions just to squeak under the bar we had to deal with in places like The Hive for Hamidon Raids? I was actually hoping that 15 years worth of software technology improvements would have been leveraged to make these kinds of compromises a thing of the past. Perhaps I was sadly mistaken in this regard. *shrugs*

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Lothic
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Fireheart wrote:Now you want
Fireheart wrote:

Now you want to suggest that each Commander should have several (six?) times as much character data to track because each PC now Also has PC-class pets. I don't envision that as a reasonable use of assets.

In CoH, all pets of a particular type used the same model. Therefore, they didn't have to be stored in the character-data, but could be called and iterated from a single server-side file. I think being able to customize pets, even with a limited base model, is a huge leap forward.

You do understand that being able to "customize pets/minions" to even a small degree already multiplies the amount of data flying around to support that. This is the kind of thing where you can't be a "little bit pregnant". Either the game allows for zero pet/minion customization (like CoH) or it allows for -any- amount which opens the door for pets/minions being practically as complex as PCs.

At least we can be reasonably sure that they will -never- make pets/minions MORE complex than the typical PC is. That would weird to say the least. So I suggest they "bite the bullet" now and equate pets/minions to PCs for the purposes of customization so they will not have to fool around with making some kind of extra (but limited) subset of customization just for pets/minions. Frankly trying to make pets/minions psudeo-customizible (via a system that is not 100% equivalent to the customization options available to PCs) is just going to be a gigantic waste/duplication of time and effort. I'd almost prefer pets/minions in CoT to NOT be customizable at all than to have them be "sort-of" customizable. All or nothing.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

SisterSilicon
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Well based on my near 25 years of professional software engineering experience I can say I'm at least "roughly" aware of what things are generally possible and not possible with current software technology.

Well based on my 22 years of professional software engineering experience (non-bold type), I can say that if you don't know how much memory one instance of one object consumes, you can't tell jack $#!^ about how well it will scale.

You've locked on to exactly one variable, entity count, while completely disregarding every other variable in the system. What's the polygon budget per model? Maximum texture size? Specular/normal/displacement/reflection maps? Emission masks? Shader complexity? Number of bones in the animation rig? Number of morph targets in the base mesh? Number of morph targets in each costume part mesh? And that's just one player character in an idle loop. Now pile on auras, movement effects, attack effects. Don't forget the budget for the environment. Indoors or outdoors? Draw distance? Level of detail? Screen-space effects? Now start scaling to the number of player characters and enemy mobs in the area. Then you can scale it again by pet count.

To misquote Any Given Sunday, the orders of magnitude we need are everywhere around us. And I, for one, would rather see the rising tide raise all boats, not just one pet peeve.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Limited range of customization compared to pc models is still very customizable. Pets that are roughly as customizable as the game NPC's is still a huge leap above anything CoH had or any current minion customization that I'm aware of.
And if this keeps multiple minion classes playing on the same team from being a slideshow/lagfest, that's even better.

Agreed. I'd love to have as much pet customization as possible in the game, but if there are still limitations, well, like you said that's still better than what we had in CoH.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

blacke4dawn wrote:
You have to remember that they have to, for a lack of a better term, "reserve" resources so that they can accommodate that effectively everyone in that instance is a Commander with all of their pets out. Even if the player limit is just 100 then if all are Commanders with all pets out then that "balloons" to a total of 700 PC models.
They at least need to have separate PC and NPC character models otherwise those resources would be even less available to players. So at least starting out with the NPC model is a good step and maybe some time in the future they can move minions over to the PC model.
Yes I'm incredibly (and painfully) well aware that you have to plan for "worse case" loading scenarios like this. That's practically the cornerstone of what you do in software/systems engineering for -any- scenario like this.
So my point, one more time, is that we are now living in 2017, not 2004. I fully get that the Devs can't just assume that there might only be 100 random individual PCs in an instance but that those 100 might all be Commander players with their pets/minions out and running. My fearful concern is that it appears our Devs have already conceded that CoT will be unable to handle even the plausibly REASONABLE scenario of 100 Commanders and their pets all in one instance. Is that acceptable to you?
We know that CoH had limitations on the "number of entities per instance" and we lived with those limitations because, well, the software technology of the 2004 timeframe forced us to live with those limitations. For example the famous (or infamous) Hamidon Raid from CoH was eventually restricted down to just 50 players because the software running it simply couldn't handle the strain of having more than that in the entire zone. We also know that that same software technology that handles that kind of thing has improved quite a bit in the last 13-15 years since CoH was designed.
So here's my essential question here: Is CoT going to actually take advantage of the improvements and efficiencies in modern software processing to actually allow say (we'll go with what I consider your hyper-conservative) 100 players per instance REGARDLESS if they have PC quality pets/minions or not? Again we were limited to situations in CoH where we could only have (at maximum worst case) 50 Masterminds in The Hive at one time. That was 50 PCs and let's estimate 350ish extra low-quality model minions as a worst case. That was it for 2004 technology. Are we to believe that CoT would not be able to handle a worst case of perhaps 100 Commanders with 600-700 PC-grade quality minions? That's only the equivalent of at worst 800 PCs - that is NOT an outrageous expectation for a game to be able to handle in 2017.
Even if I backed off of my insistence that Commander minions ought to be as complex body model wise as PCs (for full flexibility for customization) having 100 Commanders in one CoT instance would probably mean it would still have to be able to handle the equivalent of say 200 extra PCs (if we make the quick assumption that 700 low quality minions would roughly equate to 200 PC-grade quality minions). So will CoT instances be able to handle at least roughly 300 PCs worth of body models? Sadly it sounds like Tannim is not seriously expecting CoT instances to even be able to handle that much.
So what are we left with? Are we literally going to be stuck back with the limitations we suffered under in CoH as far as this goes? Are we going to have to live with only being able to have at most maybe 50 Commaders all with low quality minions just to squeak under the bar we had to deal with in places like The Hive for Hamidon Raids? I was actually hoping that 15 years worth of software technology improvements would have been leveraged to make these kinds of compromises a thing of the past. Perhaps I was sadly mistaken in this regard. *shrugs*

It seems to me that MWM chose to put most of that "software technology improvements" into character model complexity and customization rather than simultaneous player count per instance.

As SisterSilicon alludes to, you appear to be hardly taking any other variables into account and it looks like you think that all the other improvements over CoH comes for free, instead of the more realistic one where it comes from the same "resource pool" that is also used for higher player count per instance.

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SisterSilicon wrote:
SisterSilicon wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Well based on my near 25 years of professional software engineering experience I can say I'm at least "roughly" aware of what things are generally possible and not possible with current software technology.

Well based on my 22 years of professional software engineering experience (non-bold type), I can say that if you don't know how much memory one instance of one object consumes, you can't tell jack $#!^ about how well it will scale.

Which decade are you living in? I'm living in the one where software/hardware technology in 2017 is quite a bit better than it was back in 2002-2004. If so-called "memory issues" have not improved over what the Devs of CoH had to deal with then something is SERIOUSLY WRONG with what MWM is doing.

SisterSilicon wrote:

You've locked on to exactly one variable, entity count, while completely disregarding every other variable in the system.

Yes because "every other variable in the system" as you call them is assumed to be improved/mitigated/more advanced when compared to what CoH did or had to deal with over a decade ago. It's really just that simple.

SisterSilicon wrote:

What's the polygon budget per model? Maximum texture size? Specular/normal/displacement/reflection maps? Emission masks? Shader complexity? Number of bones in the animation rig? Number of morph targets in the base mesh? Number of morph targets in each costume part mesh? And that's just one player character in an idle loop. Now pile on auras, movement effects, attack effects. Don't forget the budget for the environment. Indoors or outdoors? Draw distance? Level of detail? Screen-space effects? Now start scaling to the number of player characters and enemy mobs in the area. Then you can scale it again by pet count.

You do understand that CoH had to deal with all these things just as CoT will have to. The difference (once again) is that the CoT will have the advantage of tools, capabilities and features that the CoH Devs never had. Will current software technology solve EVERY development problem? Of course not. But once again if the limitations/thresholds that our CoT Devs have to deal with end up being just as confining/limiting as they were for the CoH Devs then somehow/someway they are doing something wrong. Period.

If you want to play a game that might be "so wonderful" in terms polygon budget, texture size, specular/normal/displacement/reflection maps, emission masks, shader complexity, number of bones in the animation rig, number of morph targets in the base mesh, number of morph targets in each costume part mesh, auras, movement effects, attack effects, environment (indoors or outdoors), draw distance, level of detail, screen-space effects that you can only fit a paltry handful players in per instance then more power to you. That game would suck ass.

If the Devs of CoT have not leveraged their current technological advantages so that they can not only improve the overall quality and "customizablitity" of our PCs/minions WHILE ALSO at least maintaining or increasing the average number of players per instance (compared to CoH) then something has gone wrong. Would you ultimately accept a game that is fundamentally LESS capable than CoH? Would you really want to play a game that looks beautiful but only allows maybe a few dozen players per instance? That'd be hard for me to accept and I seriously don't think this is an "either/or" situation. I think we can have both improved PC/minion graphics quality AND improved entities per instance numbers compared to CoH. Stop thinking this is still 2004.

SisterSilicon wrote:

To misquote Any Given Sunday, the orders of magnitude we need are everywhere around us. And I, for one, would rather see the rising tide raise all boats, not just one pet peeve.

I'm suggesting that CoT should (and hopefully will) be a game that can excel past what CoH was able to accomplish in virtually EVERY WAY that matters. If this is what you meant here as well then at least we can agree on that.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Lothic
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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

It seems to me that MWM chose to put most of that "software technology improvements" into character model complexity and customization rather than simultaneous player count per instance.

As SisterSilicon alludes to, you appear to be hardly taking any other variables into account and it looks like you think that all the other improvements over CoH comes for free, instead of the more realistic one where it comes from the same "resource pool" that is also used for higher player count per instance.

As I alluded to in my last post I don't accept this situation as a zero-sum "either/or" situation. I don't think that to get improvements in "character model complexity and customization" that we must accept a game that would only allow 10 or 20 PCs per instance.

What you guys seem to be missing is that the magical "resource pool" you're referring to is not a fixed quantity of things that has remained static since CoH conjured it up back in 2004. If the CoT Devs utilize the advancements in software technology correctly that "resource pool" is going to be orders of magnitude larger than it ever was in CoH. It's is from this proper modern development that we should be getting BOTH improvements in character model complexity and customization while AT LEAST maintaining (if not increasing) CoH average "player per instance" thresholds.

You guys are just simply thinking too small here...

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I'm amused by the underlying

I'm amused by the underlying assumption that the developers are substantially incompetent and cannot be trusted to assess the limits of the minimum supported platform and network connection.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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My first point was that you

My first point was that you don't know the numbers. MWM does. So you best believe I'm going to take their word over yours on what's optimal for the engine and the finished game.

Twitter: @SisterSilicon

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SisterSilicon wrote:
SisterSilicon wrote:

My first point was that you don't know the numbers. MWM does. So you best believe I'm going to take their word over yours on what's optimal for the engine and the finished game.

^This. Always, always this.
Testify, Sister!

Planet10
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Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

We can't use the same model as players due to the amount of resource it requires.

Lothic wrote:

Here's the problem with that argument: As a hypothetical are you going to allow, let's say 25 player characters to stand next to one another in the same general area in the game? If the answer to that question is 'yes' then you've already accounted for the "resources" to allow 25 PC type bodies (with all their associated clothing items) to exist in the game in a closely confined area.
Now what's the difference between those 25 PCs and let's say 10 PCs and 15 "minions" that are using the same complex body models the PCs are using? None.
Therefore your only concern (if we assume that the "humanoid" minions will be using the same body models as the PCs to make it easier to engineer the game by reducing the number of body models you have to deal with) is making sure the game can handle a reasonable number of "PCs plus minions" all in the same place within the game. Now I could understand 13-15 years ago (back when CoH was being designed) that might have been a realistic concern as far as game resourses and graphic cards capabilities but in 2017 you're going to be seriously hard-pressed to convince someone like me that you're still dealing with an issue of "limited computing resources" to handle these reasonable scenarios. If you're going to fall back on the tired excuse yet again that "the technology won't allow it" I'm going to once again have to become worried whether you guys know what you're doing or not.
I'm not asking for the Moon here and you know it...

Lothic wrote:

Did MWM learn nothing from the inefficiency of CoH's "male" and "huge" body models?

Lothic wrote:

Well based on my near 25 years of professional software engineering experience I can say I'm at least "roughly" aware of what things are generally possible and not possible with current software technology. I'm also very painfully aware that Devs in general (at least the reasonably sane ones) tend to be very hyper-conservative about what they publicly announce their future applications can/will do until they've finally proven for themselves that they can/do actually perform at certain levels. ...

While it's certainly true I'm not literally hovering over the CoT Devs' shoulders watching their every keystroke (even despite the twitch stream) I can make some reasonable extrapolations based on maybe 10,000+ hours of CoH playing and, again, the general advancements in software technology in the last 15 years. ...

I think there's a huge (I'll call it) "underestimation" going on here considering how much things have improved with graphics processing since CoH and the technology that game used that was maybe even considered top notch for its 2002-2004 timeframe. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that games can now handle 10 million complex body models all dancing on the head of a pin. But the idea that the limitations we had to suffer with in CoH are the SAME EXACT limitations we should expect to have in CoT is laughable at best. ...

Bottomline I'm not telling the Devs of CoT that they have no need to worry about their software "resources/assets". I'm just telling them if the upper thresholds of what they can push to our screens hasn't improved (over CoH) by at least a rough order of magnitude by now they are in fact doing something wrong. The propaganda that they might not be able to allow for customized minions that could have the same degree of complexity as player characters AND account for reasonable numbers of those minions existing along side other player characters just seems frankly unfathomable to me and should be troubling to anyone else who's given what the Devs are trying to sell us here more than a passing thought.

Lothic wrote:

I'm just having a very hard time believing that your implied max "number of entities per instance" threshold is so relatively low that it would even make a practical difference. With the way you're talking is sounds like we're going to be living with the same rough "numbers per instance" limitations we had in CoH which (again) seems laughable to me.

Lothic wrote:

My fearful concern is that it appears our Devs have already conceded that CoT will be unable to handle even the plausibly REASONABLE scenario of 100 Commanders and their pets all in one instance. ...

So will CoT instances be able to handle at least roughly 300 PCs worth of body models? Sadly it sounds like Tannim is not seriously expecting CoT instances to even be able to handle that much. ...

I was actually hoping that 15 years worth of software technology improvements would have been leveraged to make these kinds of compromises a thing of the past. Perhaps I was sadly mistaken in this regard. *shrugs*

Lothic wrote:

Which decade are you living in? I'm living in the one where software/hardware technology in 2017 is quite a bit better than it was back in 2002-2004. If so-called "memory issues" have not improved over what the Devs of CoH had to deal with then something is SERIOUSLY WRONG with what MWM is doing.

Lothic from the Finances thread wrote:

Devspeak is vague for a very good reason and all I can assume at this point is that you fell for it hook, line and sinker. ...

The folks at MWM have thus far been one of the most open and communicative "pre-game" companies I've ever seen and the fact that you're jumping down their throat and predicting catastrophic problems over something so relatively trivial frankly seems "immature" to me.

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

I'm amused by the underlying assumption that the developers are substantially incompetent and cannot be trusted to assess the limits of the minimum supported platform and network connection.

SisterSilicon wrote:

My first point was that you don't know the numbers. MWM does. So you best believe I'm going to take their word over yours on what's optimal for the engine and the finished game.

Doctor Tyche
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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
We can't use the same model as players due to the amount of resource it requires.
Lothic wrote:
Here's the problem with that argument: As a hypothetical are you going to allow, let's say 25 player characters to stand next to one another in the same general area in the game? If the answer to that question is 'yes' then you've already accounted for the "resources" to allow 25 PC type bodies (with all their associated clothing items) to exist in the game in a closely confined area.
Now what's the difference between those 25 PCs and let's say 10 PCs and 15 "minions" that are using the same complex body models the PCs are using? None.
Therefore your only concern (if we assume that the "humanoid" minions will be using the same body models as the PCs to make it easier to engineer the game by reducing the number of body models you have to deal with) is making sure the game can handle a reasonable number of "PCs plus minions" all in the same place within the game. Now I could understand 13-15 years ago (back when CoH was being designed) that might have been a realistic concern as far as game resourses and graphic cards capabilities but in 2017 you're going to be seriously hard-pressed to convince someone like me that you're still dealing with an issue of "limited computing resources" to handle these reasonable scenarios. If you're going to fall back on the tired excuse yet again that "the technology won't allow it" I'm going to once again have to become worried whether you guys know what you're doing or not.
I'm not asking for the Moon here and you know it...
Lothic wrote:
Did MWM learn nothing from the inefficiency of CoH's "male" and "huge" body models?
Lothic wrote:
Well based on my near 25 years of professional software engineering experience I can say I'm at least "roughly" aware of what things are generally possible and not possible with current software technology. I'm also very painfully aware that Devs in general (at least the reasonably sane ones) tend to be very hyper-conservative about what they publicly announce their future applications can/will do until they've finally proven for themselves that they can/do actually perform at certain levels. ...
While it's certainly true I'm not literally hovering over the CoT Devs' shoulders watching their every keystroke (even despite the twitch stream) I can make some reasonable extrapolations based on maybe 10,000+ hours of CoH playing and, again, the general advancements in software technology in the last 15 years. ...
I think there's a huge (I'll call it) "underestimation" going on here considering how much things have improved with graphics processing since CoH and the technology that game used that was maybe even considered top notch for its 2002-2004 timeframe. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that games can now handle 10 million complex body models all dancing on the head of a pin. But the idea that the limitations we had to suffer with in CoH are the SAME EXACT limitations we should expect to have in CoT is laughable at best. ...
Bottomline I'm not telling the Devs of CoT that they have no need to worry about their software "resources/assets". I'm just telling them if the upper thresholds of what they can push to our screens hasn't improved (over CoH) by at least a rough order of magnitude by now they are in fact doing something wrong. The propaganda that they might not be able to allow for customized minions that could have the same degree of complexity as player characters AND account for reasonable numbers of those minions existing along side other player characters just seems frankly unfathomable to me and should be troubling to anyone else who's given what the Devs are trying to sell us here more than a passing thought.
Lothic wrote:
I'm just having a very hard time believing that your implied max "number of entities per instance" threshold is so relatively low that it would even make a practical difference. With the way you're talking is sounds like we're going to be living with the same rough "numbers per instance" limitations we had in CoH which (again) seems laughable to me.
Lothic wrote:
My fearful concern is that it appears our Devs have already conceded that CoT will be unable to handle even the plausibly REASONABLE scenario of 100 Commanders and their pets all in one instance. ...
So will CoT instances be able to handle at least roughly 300 PCs worth of body models? Sadly it sounds like Tannim is not seriously expecting CoT instances to even be able to handle that much. ...
I was actually hoping that 15 years worth of software technology improvements would have been leveraged to make these kinds of compromises a thing of the past. Perhaps I was sadly mistaken in this regard. *shrugs*
Lothic wrote:
Which decade are you living in? I'm living in the one where software/hardware technology in 2017 is quite a bit better than it was back in 2002-2004. If so-called "memory issues" have not improved over what the Devs of CoH had to deal with then something is SERIOUSLY WRONG with what MWM is doing.
Lothic from the Finances thread wrote:
Devspeak is vague for a very good reason and all I can assume at this point is that you fell for it hook, line and sinker. ...
The folks at MWM have thus far been one of the most open and communicative "pre-game" companies I've ever seen and the fact that you're jumping down their throat and predicting catastrophic problems over something so relatively trivial frankly seems "immature" to me.
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
I'm amused by the underlying assumption that the developers are substantially incompetent and cannot be trusted to assess the limits of the minimum supported platform and network connection.
SisterSilicon wrote:
My first point was that you don't know the numbers. MWM does. So you best believe I'm going to take their word over yours on what's optimal for the engine and the finished game.

You missed one:
They do have sliders. The NPC's are actually the same PC mesh, just the control and display simplified by removing some of the more GPU-intensive elements. Simpler shaders, fewer sliders, that kind of thing.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

blacke4dawn wrote:
It seems to me that MWM chose to put most of that "software technology improvements" into character model complexity and customization rather than simultaneous player count per instance.
As SisterSilicon alludes to, you appear to be hardly taking any other variables into account and it looks like you think that all the other improvements over CoH comes for free, instead of the more realistic one where it comes from the same "resource pool" that is also used for higher player count per instance.
As I alluded to in my last post I don't accept this situation as a zero-sum "either/or" situation. I don't think that to get improvements in "character model complexity and customization" that we must accept a game that would only allow 10 or 20 PCs per instance.
What you guys seem to be missing is that the magical "resource pool" you're referring to is not a fixed quantity of things that has remained static since CoH conjured it up back in 2004. If the CoT Devs utilize the advancements in software technology correctly that "resource pool" is going to be orders of magnitude larger than it ever was in CoH. It's is from this proper modern development that we should be getting BOTH improvements in character model complexity and customization while AT LEAST maintaining (if not increasing) CoH average "player per instance" thresholds.
You guys are just simply thinking too small here...

Of course the resource pool is not a fixed quantity, it grows as technology (both hardware and software) progresses, but at the same time so does the resource requirements for 3D models (not just characters) so even talking about it in absolute numbers is not a good idea. A better one would be to look at them in proportion to each other and on that I'm not so sure that the pool grows significantly faster than the requirements do since it's so much easier to increase the requirements by just adding a few more bells and whistles.

I don't think we are "thinking too small" here but rather looking at it from more business oriented PoV. You don't start out with everything cranked up to 11 and then have to tune it down when everything crawls at a snails pace but rather start at say 5-7 and then increase it if the live performance data says you have room for it. As has been said by the devs, the "NPC creator" uses largely the same assets (and probably systems) as the "PC creator" but have the, for a lack of a better term, level-of-detail setting turned down a few notches so maybe some time in the future it can be turned up to "PC level" for minions if the performance data says it's OK.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
It seems to me that MWM chose to put most of that "software technology improvements" into character model complexity and customization rather than simultaneous player count per instance.
As SisterSilicon alludes to, you appear to be hardly taking any other variables into account and it looks like you think that all the other improvements over CoH comes for free, instead of the more realistic one where it comes from the same "resource pool" that is also used for higher player count per instance.
As I alluded to in my last post I don't accept this situation as a zero-sum "either/or" situation. I don't think that to get improvements in "character model complexity and customization" that we must accept a game that would only allow 10 or 20 PCs per instance.
What you guys seem to be missing is that the magical "resource pool" you're referring to is not a fixed quantity of things that has remained static since CoH conjured it up back in 2004. If the CoT Devs utilize the advancements in software technology correctly that "resource pool" is going to be orders of magnitude larger than it ever was in CoH. It's is from this proper modern development that we should be getting BOTH improvements in character model complexity and customization while AT LEAST maintaining (if not increasing) CoH average "player per instance" thresholds.
You guys are just simply thinking too small here...
Of course the resource pool is not a fixed quantity, it grows as technology (both hardware and software) progresses, but at the same time so does the resource requirements for 3D models (not just characters) so even talking about it in absolute numbers is not a good idea. A better one would be to look at them in proportion to each other and on that I'm not so sure that the pool grows significantly faster than the requirements do since it's so much easier to increase the requirements by just adding a few more bells and whistles.
I don't think we are "thinking too small" here but rather looking at it from more business oriented PoV. You don't start out with everything cranked up to 11 and then have to tune it down when everything crawls at a snails pace but rather start at say 5-7 and then increase it if the live performance data says you have room for it. As has been said by the devs, the "NPC creator" uses largely the same assets (and probably systems) as the "PC creator" but have the, for a lack of a better term, level-of-detail setting turned down a few notches so maybe some time in the future it can be turned up to "PC level" for minions if the performance data says it's OK.

I keep saying the main difference...

Here, read:
http://kotaku.com/final-fantasy-xiv-originally-failed-because-of-flowe-1548656999

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So a commander of flowerpots

So a commander of flowerpots is right out?

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No, but they'll be slightly

No, but they'll be slightly simpler flowerpots, so that each flowerpot doesn't take as much resources as their commander.

I'm imagining Commander Seymour and his minions, Audreys 2 through 7...

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It's that simplifying the

It's that simplifying the shader for elements which are not going to spontaneously change costumes from one moment to the next improves performance. It is cheap to make a specialized shader for each kind of NPC, after all, over making a custom NPC mesh.

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Those flower pots reminded me

Those flower pots reminded me of our own pine tree incident :P.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Those flower pots reminded me of our own pine tree incident :P.

Oh no, the pine tree was a bad polygon config. Shaders are a *lot* worse.

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Kotaku wrote:
Kotaku wrote:

it's entertaining gameplay that matters

And this is why Nintendo is still in the market.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Kotaku wrote:
it's entertaining gameplay that matters
And this is why Nintendo is still in the market.

They've always seemed novelty over quality to me :p

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Some Yahoo wrote:
Lothic wrote:
The idea of player submitted costume item content that could then be vetted by the Devs for inclusion into this game has come up several times over the last few years. I'm not actually sure if the Devs have commented on it one way or the other but for what it's worth I support the idea as well. I actually don't think it should work via the cash store, or at the very least involving "money" in that equation would only make things harder. I would happily DONATE content to the game if I could get my stuff into the game.
You should see the user uploaded clothing in Second Life. They even let players sell their designs on the marketplace there. I know this leads to a lot of copyright issues (people uploading Nike products, or Captain America costumes, etc.), but it sure does make for a lively and vibrant economy!
Yes I'm aware of Second Life and all the problems that comes with what they can "get away" with there. Sure there are a few people in Second Life who make enough real money selling virtual items to make it their practical full time jobs. But the downsides are legion: To begin with there are numerous copyright issues (like you said) and CoT certainly doesn't need a bunch of idiots selling exact costume duplicates from DC and Marvel characters. We'd be sued almost instantly. Then of course there's the fact that Second Life has the overt reputation of being a virtual "Whore Island" as far as all the rampant sexual overtones. Sure you can buy all sorts of clothing items in Second Life but half of them are just lingerie and sex toys. Now while I'm a consenting adult who might not mind the "naughty" stuff if we let CoT be as "free" with its stuff as Second Life is you can kiss the "T for Teen" rating this game wants to maintain goodbye in a microsecond.
Basically CoT could never be allowed to be as "wild west" with this as Second Life is allowed to be. Any player submitted clothing items in this game would have to be vetted and approved by the staff of MWM before it ever gets into the game. Also as I said before I actually question if there should ever be any kind of "profit sharing" between players and MWM. That again leads to the kind of chaos Second Life notoriously suffers from. Players should be allowed to "donote" items to MWM but at that point any accepted items would be owned by MWM (just like all of our characters will technically be "owned" by MWM) and the players would simply have the satisfaction of getting their own designs into the game.

My university keeps a second life sim operating. They teach classes where they can display working models of internal combustion engines or chemical models. There are some awesomly good things that came out along with the BDSM paradise.

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ooglymoogly wrote:
ooglymoogly wrote:

Is the company covered regarding IP from the likes of Marvel/DC/etc so there isn't a repeat of the BS that cryptic dealt with back in 2004/05?

We have a whole department for that: Continuity. They are in charge of making sure things link together, don't contradict things, and are legally usable to the best of their abilities. There is a very large "Cont-Bat" that is used very liberally when it is appropriate.

Cyclops wrote:

Can we please have an abandoned amusement park?

I can neither confirm nor deny any plans that may exist now or in the future concerning a possible abandoned amusement park.

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How customizable are you

How customizable are you planning on allowing the UI to be?

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Will pets/minions have

Will pets/minions have customization powers too?

With the earlier release that we will have a new power every other level, will the ui slots for power be greater then the 8 maximum that have been shown in the videos so far?

Will we be able to have ui controls that are outside the general screen/area that will show up in the world/action area?
If we narrow down the field will it display a smaller section of the action or will it display at a smaller scale or would we have some choice in between?
if we have more then one monitor would be able to drag or share the ui between the two monitors?

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

As much wood as a woodchuck could chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood.

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Was that an African or

Was that an African or European wood chuck?

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

I'm amused by the underlying assumption that the developers are substantially incompetent and cannot be trusted to assess the limits of the minimum supported platform and network connection.

I'm amused by the underlying knowledge that developers almost always tend to be substantially way too hyper-conservative in their preliminary estimations and cannot always be trusted to push the limits of the minimum supported platform and network connection.

SisterSilicon wrote:

My first point was that you don't know the numbers. MWM does. So you best believe I'm going to take their word over yours on what's optimal for the engine and the finished game.

My ONLY point is we know what CoH was capable of and if CoT somehow manages to provide LESS capability than a game that's (now) based on 15+ year old technology then that's going to be super-sad for both us and them.

Cobalt Azurean wrote:

^This. Always, always this.
Testify, Sister!

As if any of you "non-Devs" actually know anything more about this game than EVEN the Devs do at this point. *sigh*

I'll at least CONSIDER what Docter Tyche (or other Devs) have to say about this game. But I'm smart enough to not take every thing even THEY say as 100% gospel about a game that's at least 18 months - 2 years from completion and hasn't even been heavily modified from the results of extensive beta testing yet (which it WILL be). Why should I bother to listen to other non-Devs who claim they know any more than I supposedly do? Reflexively agreeing with the Devs at this point when even THEY don't know what the final capabilities of this game will be is short-sighted at best.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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ivanhedgehog wrote:
ivanhedgehog wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Yes I'm aware of Second Life and all the problems that comes with what they can "get away" with there.

My university keeps a second life sim operating. They teach classes where they can display working models of internal combustion engines or chemical models. There are some awesomly good things that came out along with the BDSM paradise.

Yes to be absolutely fair Second Life was never a total 100% "BDSM paradise" and there were plenty of non-pornish social/commercial things that people managed to do with it. Despite that its overall reputation had become pretty fixed in stone as a "naughty place" and I'm not sure it ever managed to shake that perceived negative image.

Bottomline I simply don't think CoT should ever be a game that allows player submitted costume items/symbols to be "uploaded" to the game without Dev oversight and/or proper vetting.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
SisterSilicon wrote:

My first point was that you don't know the numbers. MWM does. So you best believe I'm going to take their word over yours on what's optimal for the engine and the finished game.

My ONLY point is we know what CoH was capable of and if CoT somehow manages to provide LESS capability than a game that's (now) based on 15+ year old technology then that's going to be super-sad for both us and them.

We already know that it will provide substantially more capability so that's it, right? Done and settled? At least in certain aspects of the game like character and power customization.

You still seem to be looking at the "PC/NPC number limits" in isolation, and give the appearance that there is a magical pool of "resources" dedicated for that alone when in reality there is only one single "pool" that everything in the game has to share. But according to you just because MWM doesn't "increase" the capabilities of everything in the game compared to a game built on 15+ year old tech they are falling short as a whole?
That's just it, the only aspect of the game that we have any indication of it potentially being less capable at at launch than CoH was at its end is the concurrent limit on PC-level characters. To me there will be a big difference between it only being 5% less capable compared to say 50% less, but regardless of any value you call it "super-sad".

It's always better to be a little bit over-conservative and be able to dial it up after launch than being under-conservative and be forced to dial it down to make it even playable. It is also a very good idea to have little bit of "buffer" over the minimum specs.

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Can we maybe prune this

Can we maybe prune this discussion off to an appropriate place? I think this ought to be questions towards the devs, and discussion topics may get missed if they are here (plus actual questions might get overlooked as well).

(insert pithy comment here)

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

As if any of you "non-Devs" actually know anything more about this game than EVEN the Devs do at this point. *sigh*
I'll at least CONSIDER what Docter Tyche (or other Devs) have to say about this game. But I'm smart enough to not take every thing even THEY say as 100% gospel about a game that's at least 18 months - 2 years from completion and hasn't even been heavily modified from the results of extensive beta testing yet (which it WILL be). Why should I bother to listen to other non-Devs who claim they know any more than I supposedly do? Reflexively agreeing with the Devs at this point when even THEY don't know what the final capabilities of this game will be is short-sighted at best.

We (or at least I) are not agreeing with Dev at every opportunity. We are actively disagreeing with your supposition that Dev is incompetent or have already lawn darted this project into the dirt.
Based on what information has been released I am confident that MWM can code a game that can be released on schedule (I have worked on professionally released games). However, I am not confident that the game will be tested to an appropriate degree. I suspect that the first year or so of game time will be the community paying to do open source testing for them (which pisses me off).

I'll ask this question again: What makes Lothic the paramount authority on everything everywhere?
If you are so wired into the underlying technologies and best practices of gaming software programming, why are you not volunteering to right the ship that has (in your opinion) gone so horribly off course? Why do you think you have some crucial insight into the CoT development process that the actual Devs do not?

It is time for Lothic to step up and outline exactly (in as much detail as possible) what is going wrong with the project, why Lothic believes it to be true, and what should be done to fix it.

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Please move this discussion

Please move this discussion to a more appropriate thread. This is supposed to be for questions to, and answers from, the devs, not who knows what, why, or anything else of that nature.

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ConundrumofFurballs wrote:
ConundrumofFurballs wrote:

I can neither confirm nor deny any plans that may exist now or in the future concerning a possible abandoned amusement park.

Thank you!
We should really have a few rotating boss villains there so we can play scooby doo and unmask old man Smithers!

now for a new question: Will an invasion from Mars be available for launch?
and will martian females be hot chicks who can fall in love with us? Cause ya know, everyone wants to be Captn Kirk.

Can we have a contest for who can name the Titan City Godzilla...with like a prize n' stuff?
and that has to come with concept art too.

And speaking of contests...when the Costume Creator comes out...can you hold a contest to design a few NPC super villain bosses?
that would just be totally cool.

For Halloween special events Floating skulls (rangers/energy projection from the eyes) so we can get a mission to "Go Hunt Skulls."

and also for Halloween, old WWI Red Barron biplanes piloted by skeletons would be fun...they could strafe heroes on the ground and the planes could be shot down, and a boss skeleton would come out pistols ablazing. Maybe rare sightings of a hero beagle flying a doghouse could be seen fighting them.

For Christmas we don't need roving snowmen...we need Killer Christmas trees!
and a green guy on the roof tops going in and out of chimneys stealing stuff.
Maybe special sale items in the game store by former Santa elves who left the North Pole to become small businessmen.

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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

now for a new question: Will an invasion from Mars be available for launch?
and will martian females be hot chicks who can fall in love with us? Cause ya know, everyone wants to be Captn Kirk.

I cannot say for certain when, or even if, we will have such a thing. However, I can say for absolute certain that we will NOT have it at launch.

Cyclops wrote:

Can we have a contest for who can name the Titan City Godzilla...with like a prize n' stuff?
and that has to come with concept art too.

It may be considered in the future, when we get to that point. However, we are focused on launch content right now. To shift any focus away from launch content work to something that may or may not happen, would be rather silly and would potentially delay launch even further.

Cyclops wrote:

And speaking of contests...when the Costume Creator comes out...can you hold a contest to design a few NPC super villain bosses?
that would just be totally cool.

At present, as far as I am aware, the only NPCs that will be designed by players via the character creator are for the KS backers that got "I know a guy."

Cyclops wrote:

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@ConundrumofFurballs. That

@ConundrumofFurballs. That was quick. thank you!

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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

and will martian females be hot chicks who can fall in love with us? Cause ya know, everyone wants to be Captn Kirk.

You asked for it.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

and also for Halloween, old WWI Red Barron biplanes piloted by skeletons would be fun...they could strafe heroes on the ground and the planes could be shot down, and a boss skeleton would come out pistols ablazing. Maybe rare sightings of a hero beagle flying a doghouse could be seen fighting them.

Point of information! The Red Baron flew a triplane, a Fokker IIRC. With that change, seconded!

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

Cyclops wrote:
and also for Halloween, old WWI Red Barron biplanes piloted by skeletons would be fun...they could strafe heroes on the ground and the planes could be shot down, and a boss skeleton would come out pistols ablazing. Maybe rare sightings of a hero beagle flying a doghouse could be seen fighting them.

Point of information! The Red Baron flew a triplane, a Fokker IIRC. With that change, seconded!

Only at the end of his career, because he was ordered to. He preferred the Albatros-Flugzeugwerke D instead.

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Doc, do I need to do anything

Doc, do I need to do anything official to make that a suggestion?
like in "Name those NPCs?"

I, Cyclops, release my contributions in this post under the Plan Z:The Phoenix Project/Missing Worlds Media/City of Titans Contributor License as of this date of 06/23/17.

Please use the WWI Red Barron style planes and skeleton boss pilots. Do we need to make official suggestions this way?

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Foradain wrote:
Cyclops wrote:
and also for Halloween, old WWI Red Barron biplanes piloted by skeletons would be fun...they could strafe heroes on the ground and the planes could be shot down, and a boss skeleton would come out pistols ablazing. Maybe rare sightings of a hero beagle flying a doghouse could be seen fighting them.
Point of information! The Red Baron flew a triplane, a Fokker IIRC. With that change, seconded!
Only at the end of his career, because he was ordered to. He preferred the Albatros-Flugzeugwerke D instead.

True story. We have many historical photographs up along the walls of my work, one of them of the infamous Red Baron and his various aircraft, and that guy certainly looks the part of a dastardly villain.

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[b[Players brought down the

[b[Players brought down the plane and THIS emerges from the ruins...[/b]
http://img09.deviantart.net/36d8/i/2015/253/8/2/pilot_down_by_dugstanat-d992w0e.jpg
just a search under undead WWI pilot

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Foradain wrote:

Point of information! The Red Baron flew a triplane, a Fokker IIRC. With that change, seconded!

Only at the end of his career, because he was ordered to. He preferred the Albatros-Flugzeugwerke D instead.

I sit corrected! However, since he died in a Fokker Dr.I...

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Will we have Chat bubbles?

Will we have Chat bubbles? Please say yes...

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CrownArts wrote:
CrownArts wrote:

Will we have Chat bubbles? Please say yes...

Were there chat bubbles in COH? I cant seem to remember even though I played for so many years lol

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Yes, there were chat bubbles.

Yes, there were chat bubbles.

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And I recall someone saying

And I recall someone saying they were going to be in charge of chat bubbles in the twitchstream Friday just past. Alas, he forgot to hit "record"...

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I recall chat-bubbles in one

I recall chat-bubbles in one of the earlier demo-videos.

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Not only did we have chat

Not only did we have chat bubbles, we could choose their colors, and I want my black bubble with white text back!

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Will there be trains, trams,

Will there be trains, trams, buses, street cars, taxi's or perhaps a...

and by this I mean not will they just exist in the world but be usable forms of rapid transportation?

With all the data being passed back an forth for costumes and powers how will people with slower internet connections see new characters that enter their sphere of influence? Particularly around rapid transit points will my network connection be bombarded every time a group of players get off the train(or whatever rapid transit)? In GW2 players load initially as a "generic" avatar before the character data arrives and the costuming/armor loads. Will we something similar when players are exiting from a rapid transit point?

There has been some talk about player avatar resources vs npc avatar resources and how to balance the rendering of both. This gives me some concerns about how populated the city is going to feel. I'd hope for something more like...

as opposed to...

at least where appropriate.

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Alright so I do like the fact

Alright so I do like the fact you are trying to put more strategy and skill into pvp, but I don't think I like the whole "entire AT counters another AT" approach, it can work in DCUO because you can just go to a DPS role, and it can work in overwatch because you can easily switch to another hero, but something like this you can't really switch, your stuck with the character you have, and it becomes less a game of skill and more a game of rock, paper, scissors but you can only use rock throughout the whole thing. I'd rather it be more, power types countering other power types, so that way someone can use their tertiaries to shore up their opportunities. So It's more like "Yeah this guy can use rock, paper and scissors but he is really good at playing rock!!!"

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

Alright so I do like the fact you are trying to put more strategy and skill into pvp, but I don't think I like the whole "entire AT counters another AT" approach, it can work in DCUO because you can just go to a DPS role, and it can work in overwatch because you can easily switch to another hero, but something like this you can't really switch, your stuck with the character you have, and it becomes less a game of skill and more a game of rock, paper, scissors but you can only use rock throughout the whole thing. I'd rather it be more, power types countering other power types, so that way someone can use their tertiaries to shore up their opportunities. So It's more like "Yeah this guy can use rock, paper and scissors but he is really good at playing rock!!!"

I'm hoping that the entire concept of "AT counters another AT" is based upon that specific types of powers has an advantage over other specific power types instead of a built in artificial advantage on the AT level. That's at least the impression I got when the strength/weakness relationships between ATs in CoH were explained to me. I see no reason why it wouldn't be done that way in CoT since to me that looks to be the most reasonable implementation due to most of it being "natural" differences in the different ATs own strengths and weaknesses.

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Another question for this

Another question for this month block: How 'lived in' will the game world look?

I am guessing with the level of accuracy drilled into the maps that the world is not flat & level. Some of the maps of the zones show how population areas (streets mostly) have merged together over time. The path of least resistance is usually the path most traveled when population centers build up. Roads follow the terrain. Municipal funds get allocated to projects to help the local economy and the general welfare of the community (unless there is something evil afoot). Affluent areas tend to be well cared for and tend to look nicer. Downtown city streets tend to be dirtier. Economically depressed areas tend to be run down or not cared for to the same degree. You will also see different types of people in these areas doing dramatically different things when they go about their daily lives.

Will we see differences in terrain, architecture, city planning, NPC behaviors and NPC densities?

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

Another question for this month block: How 'lived in' will the game world look?

Didn't the different zones in CoH appear differently 'lived in'? If I recall, even different neighborhoods within a given zone could exhibit different amounts of wear-and-tear. I would expect to see the same variation in Titan City. I'm certain we'll see variations in 'terrain'.

Noticeable variation in NPC behavior...? Hmm, yes, I'd like to see the NPCs behave differently, based on environmental variables, like weather, law-enforcement, and hero/villain activities.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Something that occurred to me

Something that occurred to me today. Will any of the content have lockout settings? That is, if you die and respawn you won't be able to rejoin the fight with your teammates?

Related to that, will we have a generic rez other power that allows us to rez fallen teammates in a fight or will that only be a support powerset option?

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Blue Battler wrote:
Blue Battler wrote:

Something that occurred to me today. Will any of the content have lockout settings? That is, if you die and respawn you won' be able to rejoin the fight with your teammates?
Related to that, will we have a generic rez other power that allows us to rez fallen teammates in a fight or will that only be a support powerset option?

I don't mind lockouts as long as there are inspirations or something like them. Wakies were a must....it's kept u in the fight without the need for someone to rez.

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Blue Battler wrote:
Blue Battler wrote:

Something that occurred to me today. Will any of the content have lockout settings? That is, if you die and respawn you won't be able to rejoin the fight with your teammates?
Related to that, will we have a generic rez other power that allows us to rez fallen teammates in a fight or will that only be a support powerset option?

Personally I'm not a fan of such lockout since it seems to be a very cheap way to prevent zerging such fights/content. Though if there is a solid story reason behind it then I will most likely not mind.

CoH did have a tertiary rezz so I fully expect that CoT will have it as well.

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Re: Lockout Settings

Re: Lockout Settings
From my experiences in The Secret World (TSW), I generally don't agree with content lockouts. TSW had it when you successfully finished a dungeon, you literally couldn't go back into it until the cooldown was off. A good idea in theory, but it made it extremely difficult to learn the fights. What TSW should have done, and it appears to have been implemented in Secret World Legends (SWL), is put the loot on cooldown instead and now you get an XP bonus if you complete the dungeon again while the loot cooldown is in effect. That's how it is for the Story Mode dungeons. I don't know how it will be for Elite Dungeons as they haven't been released yet (next week's patch) or for Nightmare dungeons.

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I have been a way for a whiel

I have been a way for a whiel, so I appologise in advance if this has already been answered. Will we still get the costume creator released to us a head of the "regular game launch"? This was mentioned a long time back so folks could get comfortable with the creator, get some names established & be ready to hit the ground running( or sky flying), when game is released,

Deeds Not Words

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1 eye archer wrote:
1 eye archer wrote:

( or sky flying)

Thanks -- that made me smile. :-)

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

1 eye archer wrote:
( or sky flying)
Thanks -- that made me smile. :-)

Your welcome Cinnder, just part of that good o'l COH community love, we all miss & shell see again, I hope.

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In the City of Titans, I

In the City of Titans, I would like to see US flags, patriotic bunting, and fire works on the 4th of July, thank you.

and please put a statue of Washington and Lincoln in a city park somewhere. The city is set in one of the first colonies after all.

Thank you!

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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

In the City of Titans, I would like to see US flags, patriotic bunting, and fire works on the 4th of July, thank you.
and please put a statue of Washington and Lincoln in a city park somewhere. The city is set in one of the first colonies after all.
Thank you!

I agree with Cyclops. Its those kind of little details that can really bring a game to life.

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And beer.

And beer.

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Re: Lockout Settings:

Re: Lockout Settings:

I am also against the idea. Not only could it be hard to get on another team & get back on track for that mission, story line, etc., it can be a possible challange to get back on the team you were on. That can get real annoying, if it was a good team or perhaps members of your SG & you have to wait for them to complete things to rejoin them.

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Yeah - I'm not too fond of

Yeah - I'm not too fond of lock-out timers. I mean we want people to do missions - if they are having fun what's the harm? Now - diminished returns when it comes to rewards if you keep hammering the same mission within a certain period of time - maybe - though this could likely be less of an issue depending on the type of rewards and also as the game keeps adding content.

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

Yeah - I'm not too fond of lock-out timers. I mean we want people to do missions - if they are having fun what's the harm? Now - diminished returns when it comes to rewards if you keep hammering the same mission within a certain period of time - maybe - though this could likely be less of an issue depending on the type of rewards and also as the game keeps adding content.

1 eye archer wrote:

Re: Lockout Settings:
I am also against the idea. Not only could it be hard to get on another team & get back on track for that mission, story line, etc., it can be a possible challange to get back on the team you were on. That can get real annoying, if it was a good team or perhaps members of your SG & you have to wait for them to complete things to rejoin them.

I think you two are thinking of the wrong lock-out mechanics.

I'm sure the one mentioned is for boss battles where if you are defeated and respawn you can't re-enter that area until the fight is settled, either by defeating the boss or a complete wipe.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

I think you two are thinking of the wrong lock-out mechanics.
I'm sure the one mentioned is for boss battles where if you are defeated and respawn you can't re-enter that area until the fight is settled, either by defeating the boss or a complete wipe.

Interesting. I can't think of a single reason implementing something like that would be a good thing.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I have a question Can you

I have a question Can you have Temporal based powers? I believe it could fit with the Operator Archetype.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

I think you two are thinking of the wrong lock-out mechanics.
I'm sure the one mentioned is for boss battles where if you are defeated and respawn you can't re-enter that area until the fight is settled, either by defeating the boss or a complete wipe.

Ah - well if that's the case then definitely no - I think that's a very bad idea.

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For those with Shoulder

For those with Shoulder Kitties and the like, I would like the option for speech bubbles to come from the kitty and not the human.
Thank you.

And maybe we could have a brain sucker hat...an octopus like creature that controls its human host. every now and then it will pulsate.
Thank you.

Killer Klowns. Call them something different if you like. But I want to blow them away. they might make for an interesting invasion force.
It would be a bonus if they blew up in cloud of confetti when they died. and they have giant eggs you get to destroy too. They should hate you for that. ***
Thank you

Luck Charms. At low levels in COH I used to hunt Hellions for their Luck Charms. Something of value we can loot and keep us in inspirations at low levels.
Thank you.

Costumes like the Carnival of Shadows had is a must.
Thank you.

And could we get a lore update on Dr Tyche the character, please?
Thank you

*** Re: the Killer Klowns. I would love to be able to really tick a villain group off and have them hunt you. COH tried something like that with a kill list of something...but I never paid attention. Blowing up alien eggs ought to really send them screaming after you. I consider it free experience points...um, I means consequences. But I really would like to tick off a villain group and earn some hatred as a result.
Thank you.

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Will we have a "Kill 20

Will we have a "Kill 20 mutant sewer rats" mission? I ask, because I think this would be the best way to give CoT a classic MMO mission in a joke sort of way :)

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Will we have a "Kill 20 mutant sewer rats" mission? I ask, because I think this would be the best way to give CoT a classic MMO mission in a joke sort of way :)

There ought to be an NPC that says, "Go. Kill Skulls."

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Oh, and instead of Zombies

Oh, and instead of Zombies (overdone), we should have a necromancer faction raising skeletons. as you go up in level they have guns and super powers.

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Please remember to phrase

Please remember to phrase your requests in the form of a question? I could totally see them not answering some of these requests cause they were not questions?

Is there any chance we could ditch this format and just have the devs answer some of these questions in the twitch stream? They were begging for questions towards the end and I was screaming (watching the recording) because there was a whole list of questions right here they could have been answering.

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I would love to see more

I would love to see more questions answered, but not in the Twitch stream. It would mean that those of us who don't have the kind of time it takes to watch a whole stream in the hopes of some nuggets of info would miss out on the answers. Plus a video isn't text-searchable, so it can't be used easily as a reference after the fact. I'm already concerned that significant info is being broadcast in that limiting format without adding more.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I dont see why a specific

I dont see why a specific holiday would be celebrated and not others. I say we refrain from including any specific holiday or flag. Especially if this is going to be released world wide.

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What is the plan for weather

What is the plan for weather we've seen some references to snow being in the "playbook." What about that great big bay in the middle of the city? Will there be waves or any interaction between the water and the coast line? Most of the water in COX just moved up and down about 6 inches to simulate moving water on shallow slopes. I hope we could see a little more than that.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I dont see why a specific holiday would be celebrated and not others. I say we refrain from including any specific holiday or flag. Especially if this is going to be released world wide.

Titan City is set in the general area of Boston, Massachusetts. Since it is in the US, then US holidays and typical celebrations will likely be a thing. Maybe not all of them, but some. Not all holidays are celebrated by most Americans, so we will only celebrate some.

As far as religious holidays, we intend to generally avoid them. We don't want to play to any one religion over another, and we also don't want to offend some people by "getting it wrong" (which would inevitably happen because not everyone celebrates the same holiday in the same way.

So, while some holidays will not be celebrated, while others will be.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Will we have a "Kill 20 mutant sewer rats" mission? I ask, because I think this would be the best way to give CoT a classic MMO mission in a joke sort of way :)

And then we punk you at the end of the mission when you discover "20 sewer rats" is one big boss mob.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Frankly, if there are

Frankly, if there are religious celebrations, they should be community-driven, not dictates from the devs. How to get the community what it needs for such things would be an interesting question.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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ConundrumofFurballs wrote:
ConundrumofFurballs wrote:

So, while some holidays will not be celebrated, while others will be.

If you could skip New Year missions with a strangely buff wee man-child, that'd be great, thanks.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I dont see why a specific holiday would be celebrated and not others. I say we refrain from including any specific holiday or flag. Especially if this is going to be released world wide.

Because it's set in America. If it was set in modern day Japan, would you be all "What's with the Japanese Flag?" What if it was set in Canada?

Then of course there's the idea of nothing being wrong with having some events going on. This is Earth, it's set in America. So, what's wrong with a little 4th of July event? A Christmas event? 92% of American's celebrate it, whether christian or not (82% of non christian's celebrate it). So, it seems perfectly fine to create an event around it. This isn't Star Wars, where you call it something else.

If we get a map, where we go to another country, I'd love to see their flags flying. Personally, I find it immersive :) I'd also like to see the city's state flag flying :) This isn't to say, have a US Flag flying everywhere.

That said, I wouldn't hate on the game for not having the flag. :p Wouldn't make sense for a government building not to be waving one, but I don't see why not to do it, just because it's a game going world wide. :p

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ConundrumofFurballs wrote:
ConundrumofFurballs wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
I dont see why a specific holiday would be celebrated and not others. I say we refrain from including any specific holiday or flag. Especially if this is going to be released world wide.
Titan City is set in the general area of Boston, Massachusetts. Since it is in the US, then US holidays and typical celebrations will likely be a thing. Maybe not all of them, but some. Not all holidays are celebrated by most Americans, so we will only celebrate some.
As far as religious holidays, we intend to generally avoid them. We don't want to play to any one religion over another, and we also don't want to offend some people by "getting it wrong" (which would inevitably happen because not everyone celebrates the same holiday in the same way.
So, while some holidays will not be celebrated, while others will be.

I do hope we have a ambiguous Winter Holiday season :/

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I think it'd be neat if

I think it'd be neat if different communities in Titan City celebrated various occasions, as appropriate. Not every city celebrates St. Patrick's Day like Chicago, after all. Proper decorations in the right areas would be nice.

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Will we have a "Kill 20 mutant sewer rats" mission? I ask, because I think this would be the best way to give CoT a classic MMO mission in a joke sort of way :)
And then we punk you at the end of the mission when you discover "20 sewer rats" is one big boss mob.

Gustav Tenratz, super-powered Czech national and known associate of the Russian mob.

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I don't live in the States,

I don't live in the States, but I'd be perfectly happy with American holidays like Independence Day, Thanksgiving, etc because Titan City is located in the States.

Events belonging to modern religions, on the other hand, are something I'd prefer to see avoided.

I do hope there is some sort of nondenominational winter holiday, though.

And I like the ideas of specific neighbourhoods celebrating specific events.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Even after assimilating into

-- pruning off reply to start a new thread, since this is now away from the Questions theme --

(insert pithy comment here)

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I wasn't aware it took place

I wasn't aware it took place in the U.S, I thought Titan City took place in a made up land on a made up planet. Guess ill go read up on my lore now ^_^

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