Something that's bothered me about all the Superhero MMO's thus far, has been the one-note quality of what we generally called "transport powers" (flight, superspeed, teleportation, superjumping, gliding, swinging)..
In all these games, these abilities exist ONLY in relation to their ability to traverse the map. They are, basically, mounts.
But, in the comics, These same powers generally play a vital role in defining a character's offense and defense.
For some characters (like nightcrawler or cannonball) transportation IS their "power"... and for others (spiderman, superman) transportation abilities function as part of their combat/defense arsenal.
So, in this game... is there a chance that we'll see offense or defense options that function with transportation power-inspired visuals, or who's visuals are drastically altered by our transport power choices....
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I remember Speed had +stealth and there were other secondary effects so chances are good.
Edit: I should qualify this, I'm thinking of the early tier power pools that gave you lower level travel speeds coupled with defensive buffs. That was a great system.
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I think i'm looking for something more than simply added effects, though....
this is more about transport powers as full offense or defense sets (where apropriate)
That is to say, while you COULD just take teleport (for example) as a transport power... you could also take an offensive set that has teleport animations.... that is a set of "teleport attacks" (given the nature of the power system suggested by the devs, I'm sure some "transport attacks/defenses" would simply be an aesthetic option on other abilities...)
This could be as simple as having offense/defense abilities attached to the transport powers, rather than the weaker version/stronger version+random similarly themed abilities that COX had....
but I envision something more like full sets (where apropriate for the given travel power type) that tap into the feel of the travel power in question
superspeed and teleportation, to my mind, seem easily suited to having various sets attached to them, from Offensive melee or "pseudo-melee" (visuals that appear to have you travel to your enemy, attack, and return to your origin) sets to clever debuff, control, and defensive sets...
and other traditional travel powers would, with some creativity, be at least able to accomidate a set or two....
by divesting "travel" from "combat" applications, and by giving transport powers a place in both roles..... it could lead to fun and interesting blendings of powers (vision type characters who "fly" around to travel, but in combat, they can become intangable and reconstitute at will (teleportative defense?))
It also allows for characters who's "deal" is their travel power.... for example a winged character who drive-bombs, falcon-kicks, and tackles enemies and uses aerial acrobatics and their massive wings to deflect blows...
A full character that revolves around the "travel power" of Flight.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
On one hand I think you have a very valid point here. It does make sense that if a person has a superpowered mode of travel that it ought to be linked into how that person would offensively engage in combat.
But here's the problem (and likely the reason) why travel powers have so far been "divorced" from having a direct offensive effect on combat: Ultimately the playerbase would figure out which travel power provided the most benefit in combat and the vast majority would only use that power (especially where PvP is concerned). Yes it's true that some people might stick to the less combat effective travel powers just to maintain their "character concept". But as we all know a large portion of people pick powers in MMOs just to min/max their characters regardless of concept. By keeping travel powers effectively disconnected from combat it maintains a balance and keeps them all roughly equal in their usefulness.
It's the same reason why CoH kept the travel speed of Fly slower than Super Speed. The Devs continuously made the excuse they couldn't make Fly go any faster (even though people constantly begged for it) because the game code couldn't handle it. Well if the game code couldn't handle that speed then how was Super Speed able to work? The point was that if the Devs had ever made Fly be as fast as Super Speed then there would have been no practical reason to use Super Speed. Why limit yourself to being stuck on the ground when you could go as fast in the air? Therefore the tradeoff for being able to Fly above danger was that you'd be slower when you did it.
I'm not necessarily against your "offensive travel power" concept. I just don't know how you'd get it to work in a fair and balanced way.
P.S. I won't dwell on it but the whole reason "Travel Suppression" existed in CoH was again to limit the offensive combat effectiveness of ALL travel powers in relation to not using them. For example it kept a person using Super Speed from having too much of an advantage over someone who didn't have it by forcing them to "slow down" while tossing combat powers. Giving travel powers direct offensive capability of their own would only serve to increase the Devs' resolve to limit us with various (and maybe even new) forms of Travel Suppression to keep balance.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
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When dealing with "short ranges" ... and in this case I'm talking about combat distance ranges ... some things tend to blur into each other a little bit. Being able to go from here to there in the blink of an eye, over a short enough distance, could be defined as either (fast enough) superspeed or some sort of teleport. The only real difference between them is that the teleport version wouldn't care about obstacles between here and there, so as to be able to "move through" something like a fence.
Ultimately, a lot of the things you're talking about here really come down to simply being attack powers that *involve* movement, most often some kind of "movement charge" to cover distance ... like Spring Attack did. Another possibility that springs to mind is a Teleport styled Self Buff that allows you to "ignore" Line of Sight rules for your next ranged attack, so as to be able to do things like "snipe" through walls and such, and have that be on a long (1 minute?) recharge cooldown. Ideally speaking, what you'd want is to build a sort of "combo system" where you invoke a movement self buff that modifies your next attack power use (of the appropriate type) in some way. So you could do things like a "flying" punch or a "leaping" attack to use a melee power from a distance by doing a move through/move to sort of thing. Essentially a group of modifiers to use as Range Closers. And then, as mentioned, there's the Teleport alternative of just teleporting [i]your attack[/i] instead of teleporting yourself so as to give that "reach out and touch you" capability that negates Line Of Sight rules for ONE attack on a long recharge cooldown, making it more of a Snipe/Assassin Strike sort of move (although it could also be used for Corner Pulling of aggro).
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Lothic.... I actually addressed this concern, stating that you could DIVEST TRAVEL FROM POWERSET.
That is:
You would choose your Travel power, as you do in other games.... but you could ALSO choose a "travel power themed" powerset (be it offense, defense, de/buff, or mezz) that fits into your archtype of choice.... either "in contrast/addition" to your travel power (fly for travel, "teleport" for a powerset) or "in agreement" with your travel power (superspeed travel, superspeed powerset)
Yes, people will try to determine "which travel power's powersets are "best"".... but honestly, they're going to do that about ALL powersets, at some point.
Redlynn... while I definitely think your suggestions would work.. you use a lot of polarizing words. While, yes all these powers would "involve" movement... that "movement" can come in a variety of forms, not limited to simple visuals (the "reach out and touch someone" animations you mentioned) to various forms of "dashing" ..... to something even more unusual (like a superspeed maintain or charge up (re: our other conversation) that has you run rings around your enemy impossibly fast, Flash-style)
SOME sets could utilize a combo system (superspeed definitely comes to mind here, possibly teleport, both in respects to "offense" sets, and probably not other set types) but others definitely wouldn't (any sort of defense/debuff "travel power themed" set)
Ideally speaking, What i'd actually want, is a series of powersets of various classifications that, together, complete the aesthetic and functional elements that Transport-style powers imply.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
This is an interesting idea. An I made use of this in some toons in CoX.
I had a teleporter, who would teleport into the middle of a mob and Alpha Strike. I had several fliyers who never touched the ground, including a tank. I also had a Scrapper with SS, who was always running SS and Stealth...and zipping around punching people...now of course CoX supressed travel powers for a short time after an attack, so the concept did not work perfectly.
However what would be interesting is if there was a Charge & Attack type animation or set of powers....basically where you run a short distance and make your attack (but its all part of that power)....this could then be modified by your active travel power...if you SJ, then you leap...if you Fly, then you divebomb....if you TP, then you TP...if you SS, then you zip in there.
I think even if you tried to use a core travel power as a "theme" to inspire an entirely new type of powerset you'd probably still run into the same problems that would exist if you just tried to grant offensive combat qualities to standard travel powers.
For example what makes Super Speed advantageous to use in combat is that you are presumably able to move faster than your opponent. That innate advantage was balanced in CoH by Travel Suppression. Now if you were to make a new powerset with a bunch of powers that all incorporated Super Speed-like movement then all of those powers would still have to be balanced by something like Travel Suppression. Trying to hide that advantage inside a themed powerset isn't going to let you "sneak" that capability past the game's need to make sure you aren't overpowered.
Thus while I have no real problem with "travel power themed" powersets they're still going to have to live under the same rules that prevent the use of the standard travel powers from becoming unbalanced in combat situations. Given that reality it might just be easier to come up with new types of powersets with some interesting animations that "mimic" the types of moves you get with standalone travel powers without actually trying to mix real travel power in with a combat powerset.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
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For combat sets, I agree... I have a feeling most travel themed offensive sets would be predominantly melee in nature (a few, like swinging could be really neat as midranged sets (more of a hybrid ranged damage/ light control set... lookin at you, spidy))..... and seeing as there is a redundancy of power concept in most sets (quick attack, strong attack, cone, dot, self buff, etc et al) I figured that each would end up being a twist on the basic structure (like like fire melee and ice melee relied on secondary effects and subtle tweaks in function to stand out from eachother)
just spitballing, I think the breakdown would be something like these (obviously more sets, but just the vibe):
Dive (Flight Offense):
base: medium/short range damage/soft control (stagger or knock down type effects)
Theme: crushing "swoops and dives"
Animations: hand first and foot first dives/kicks /battering rams
Bolo (Swinging Control):
Base: medium range control/movement (manipulating enemy location (like bunching mobs together, so someone else can AOE ;P))
Theme: constriction or crushing
Animation: shooting ropes and nets to produce various control effects (traps, bindings, bunching enemies, pulling enemies, tripping enemies, etc.)
Disappear (teleport offense)
base: long/short melee (targeted PB melee set where each attack has a teleport component)
Theme: crushing (again?)
Animation: start up for many attacks includes a teleport "bamph" (for lack of a better visual allusion) moving the character towards his/her chosen target (non-physically teleporting powers also included (teleported fist punching guy in the back, or from across a distance) and a non-attack "feint" teleport that just moves character into melee range)
Now You See Me (SS Debuff)
Base: ranged Debuff/ soft control
Theme: -accuracy, -endurance, confusion
Animation: a blur of color and physique boomeranging towards and away from targets.
....I'm still not 100% on how Titan's powersets work but I think that's how they were broken down in the other thread....
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I think your making an assumption that i'm not.
think of it another way. if I throw out an "energy blast", there are no concerns that i'm overpowered, based on its ANIMATION.... right?
so If I have a "Super Speed Haymaker" whose animation has a blur of motion towards the target with a big punch as the blur moves past only to "return" behind the character as if they came back to their starting position (a melee LOOKING "ranged" attack)
....how am I "cheating" or "sneaking" again?
Ahh... yes, I see your confusion in this word "Mix"
This is not 'mixing."
This is Travel power THEMED sets (using theme the way it is properly intended, not the mechanical definition the Devs are using) I.e. they 'look and feel" like the accordant travel power.
Now, there were a few sets in COX that utalized mobility attacks, and there is no reason they cant be included again in various forms.. even as specific, separate powers (like a "dash to" ability)
But the goal is not to make your melee character "super fast". The goal is to make his actions LOOK "super fast"
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I think that is exactly what the suggestion is--primary and secondary powersets that mimic and are themed based on a travel power, and independent of that travel power.
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So basically you just want powersets with better travel-themed animations. That sounds fine with me.
It was your use of phrasing like "transporation powers... as a vital part of a comic book character's combat/defense arsenal" and "having offense/defense abilities attached to the transport powers" that made me think you were suggesting something far more complicated than "you want better animations with your powers". Sorry about that.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
No worries.... I was speaking more from a thematic perspective (re, my examples) in that, in comics, something like 'flight' is more than simply a conveyance... and should be accounted for in both powersets as a whole, and the animation options therin
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
For some reason, nowadays my default assumption for a Swinging Travel Power involves uses of Dual Blades and 3D Maneuvering on a superhero that looks a lot like ... [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2ju9FJNHJc]THIS[/url] ...
(talk about City of Titans!) o.O;
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
heh, when i think of swinging lately, I think of the metal bender cops in legend of Korra ;P
but in envisioning a mid-ranged control set for "swinging"... I picture a collection of snares, bolos, grappling hooks and the like... whether it is spiderman-like "webbing" or actual cables is something that could either be legal-dependant, or a collection of selectable animation options
That said, as a debuff or control set (or a little bit country, a little bit rock and roll, as it were) you could definitely have your dual blades melee set along with it.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I have NO idea if GH's idea would work but I like the gist of it.
Think about all the heroes you've ever seen in the comics. Many, if not most, use their movement power offensively one way or another. Hell even the Thing (who usually drives a vehicle) rams people with it on occasion.
So what if every travel power unlocked a small tertiary set from which the player could pick 2 attacks out of 4 or something? Each would be balance so it would be more a matter of theme than power.
All of them would have the movement power itself as well as one sort of 'inherent' attack power that would basically trigger at the end of a move (sort of like CO's 'leaping attacks'). Each attack would match the movement theme. There would be three others in the list and the player could choose one. Swinging could be a 'swingline kick' or whatever. This would be an unsuppressed power to use essentially to get the character into combat. Other players with Rangers would be able to select a different inherent attack like 'Strafe'.
Again, I like the basic idea but not at all sure how ti implement it.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
That's basically the right idea. There may be a lot of specific power sets that we don't do, but you will be able to create through the picking of animations to customize your powers to a certain theme.
[color=#ff0000]Gameplay And Content Team[/color]
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TBK, then the hammer falls..... will there be "transportation themed" animations?
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I have an idea for a fix to this problem. Two power sets. One is just the power as a travel power, like the power pools were, and another that is the power as an offensive/defensive power set, like the Primary and Secondary powers were.
So, assuming that you choose powers in a similar fashion to CoH/CoV, if you wanted a flying character that had flying attacks, you would need to take the flying travel pool of powers and the flying attack/defense set of powers.
If you are interested, I have come up with a possible power set for Teleportation that has nothing to do with the travel power but is strictly offensive/defensive in nature. http://cityoftitans.com/forum/all-things-teleport
While I can make no promises, the team is aware of the demand and it's reasonable to assume that they may well happen at some point, that point just may not be launch :).
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I literally have Nightcrawler tattooed on my chest. An assault set with TP animations is something I've wanted since I started playing CoH right after i3 was released. This is definitely a Shut Up And Take My Money issue.
CoyoteShaman
"In all these games, these abilities exist ONLY in relation to their ability to traverse the map. They are, basically, mounts."
That's wrong. It's easy to give examples of how.
In CoH, CO and DCUO, flight is a defensive combat power. It keeps you out of range of melee (usually more damaging than ranged) combat.
In CoH and CO teleport can be used defensively/offensively. Mobs have attack ranges. Taking stealth out of the equation mobs will normally attack you from a decent range. With teleport you can appear right in their midst and rip off an aoe (damage or control) before they can respond. Have you played CO? They have power suppression for teleport because it can be so overpowered in combat. Superspeed in all three games works almost as well for the same effect.
In DCUO all travel powersets include (optional) thematically appropriate attack powers. They're also all useful in different ways for getting around in combat to dish out or avoid damage.
Not that more / better can't be done though and possibly that's what you're after? While it's categorically untrue to claim travel powers have just been mounts, it might be nice to see more done with them.
You make some very good points here @Lothic. I was one of those CoX players that picked travel powers that tied in with the overall concept for each character. But then I was always more interested in the RP aspects of the game and would choose all my powers thematically rather than upon any min/max or DPS formula. That being said I know that many players eschew the role-play aspects and focus primarily on the "most effective" build (a concept that tended to vary even amongst the min/max community).
In game design that leads to the types of inevitable compromises you noted. Hopefully the CoT Devs will be able to effectively balance upon Occam's Razor while the sword of Damocles dangles precariously above (ummm, keep the gameplay balanced and engaging for all player types).
You just need to come up with a power base that feels like our can be portrayed as the travel power but not limited to only being that. Then it will be child's play to just add visuals that fulfills the desired look. For instance, it has been mentioned that charge attacks are a goal for the game and some sets will have them while others won't. Having a melee base with 2 charge attacks (1 basic and the other that's stronger and increases defensiveness during the animation) and a pbaoe with a longer animation but self buff during. Such a base could be a lot of things, including all the travel. They just require some animations, with crossover from teleport and super speed.
I think the real challenge comes with creating defense, buff and control type sets for the travel styles, with some possibly being overlooked (like a jumping support set) or would just require imagination on the player's part.