In general in MMOs, some spells (or any power in general, let's call it a spell here) need you to be standing still, and others you can cast on the run.
To make the game more playable, I submit if a person is running, and casts a spell that they need to be stopped for, to auto-stop.
This makes things much more playable -- I find little "gameplay" in having to manually stop myself.
DDO, by the way, will let you cast many spells on the run, and just slow you down about 80% while casting, then you resume running -- something else to consider. Also, SW:ToR will autostop for some spells, like "casting" a vanity pet, and auto-resume running.
Proposed ruleset:
1. All this assumes autorun is on. I guess it could apply to manual run where someone holds down run through all the other button presses.
2. When clicking a must-stop-to-cast spell, character stops running, casts spell, and continues running (i.e. this does not abort running on top of not requiring the user to manually stop running.)
3. If, while stopped and spell is casting, they use manual move, this aborts the spell and the autorun, with normal endurance/mana/whatever costs.
4. If coming to a stop has a non-zero time cost, that is added to the spell cast time (so to speak). Resuming the run has any acceleration time as a normal run start would, as well, if any.
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The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.
You could also require to be defined with each spell a "max speed while casting", and design the running to handle anything from 0 to full speed.
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The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.
The old game had this for every single power. It was part of an attempt to fix a perceived pvp imbalance and a pve embalance. Crafty players were able to use certain attacks and movement power combinations to effectively joust certain pve encounters allowing them to do damage and avoid retaliation in quick enough succession to defeat the encounter.
One of the issues was that combat then looked like this: full speed - > STOP - > full speed. And in a game where movement powers allowed the character to increase their base movement in multiples, it could end up feeling very...jittery.
So the concerns are multiple:
Jousting adding twitch elements to both pvp and pve. More of a concern for PvE is the possibility of the joust either manipulating AI in unintended ways (from a dev perspective) or taking advantage of a system in unintended ways.
Players tend to like mobility and did not like rooting (as the term was used) both as a result of the move.stop.go. feel of play and the restrictiveness that movement based combat could provide.
Part of a way we are exploring is that certain powers will by their nature require rooting, there is no avoiding that. Particularly powers with longer animation times and / or require a charge componant to activation. Other powers, like those meant to impart the "weight of impact" may require rooting. Powers that don't fall into these and some other categories should be castable on the fly as it were.
For the powers that do cause rooting, providing a smoother transition from the rooting to full speed may help with the dislike 'jittery' feel of play. Which means that in order to ensure a cohesive feel for all combat, there should be application of some consequence-based methods to all movement and combat powers which could (if set up properly), allow for both movement based combat, but curb the possibilty of constant jousting issues.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
No if, it WOULD have to apply to those who hold down the direction button instead of Auto-Run.
Careful, some people might consider that "twitch" game play ;)
Auto-stopping is something I can fully get behind. Releasing manual controls works well since it's a requisite for using certain powers, and while jousting is an important problem as our good dev Tannim222 pointed out, it can of course be used sparingly for the really flashy powers- especially those with a long power animation or require that your feet be firmly planted.
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuQqyu9dKQc]Honestly, I would also call this [i]"twitch"[/i] gameplay.[/url]
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It was meant tongue in cheek about using abilities whilst on the move, something that some people on this forum have called "twitch gameplay". And these people *vehemently* disagreed with ANY form of twitch gameplay.
Just to clarify: best I can tell, CoH had auto-stopping from day one. Whenever you activated a power, for its animation time, your feet were pretty much planted.
What Tannim's talking about is that mainline travel powers like Fly and Superspeed were suppressed for a short period during [i]and after[/i] the animation completed. This was to prevent jousting, but it also prevented people from using the built-in Stealth on Superspeed as a cut-rate assassination strike. Suppression came later, after PvP. Until then, the closest thing there was to it was a 50% accuracy debuff when Fly was running.
I saw another AR/Dev do this a lot: have SS going, approach a group of mobs, plant a trip mine in the middle of them, use SS to back up quickly before the mine goes off, and right as it goes off use a cone attack like Shotgun or Full Auto to take out what's left. It was kind of boring, really.
I mention all that because I have no problem with the concept of suppression to prevent jousting and all. My concern is the first type: where you have to plant feet to do anything. I'm hoping that we'll have most basic powers set to not require planted feet, so we can have things like run-n-gun encounters. So the healer doesn't fall behind because they're refreshing buffs or spamming heal while we Get Out Of Dodge.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Let me throw a boomerang into this topic.
What if things were set up such that, by default, every Power is a stationary casting as its baseline. That then opens up the possibility of adding "mobility refinements" to SOME Powers such that they can be used while continuing to move. That in turn creates a continuum of possibilities such that a particular category of Powers (low Tier?) could have very high multipliers on their "mobility refinements" such that a little enhancement goes a long way (and thus require fewer Slots to achieve this effect) ... while another category of Powers (high Tier?) could have very low multipliers on their "mobility refinements" such that it takes a lot of enhancement to get back up to unimpaired mobility.
I would also stipulate that just because a Power uses a Charging mechanic should not be a reason to mandate that Power can only be Charged while remaining stationary. I'm thinking of the specific example of the Berserker in TERA which makes use of a lot of Charging mechanics, where their solution was simply a mobility limiting debuff while Charging rather than a mobility preventing debuff while Charging. That distinction helped keep battles from becoming "plant the flag, stand and stick" slugfests with absolutely no mobility component to them whatsoever. As a result, it forced the Player to become a good judge of anticipating action(s) and planning your next move in advance so as to connect successfully on time and on target. It made the gameplay experience richer.
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Red.. I won't go back to stand still casting for all powers. Gaming and game mechanics have come too far to go ALL the way back to that. Especially when so many people just use the game physics to get around it (casting mid jump, etc).
I would hate it and I'd think the devs daft for using it in the modern age of gaming.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
+1*
Still, powers like Foot Stomp and the like, I feel, need to stay rooted. :/
That's not what Red is suggesting.
She's suggesting that rooting be default, but only so that there can be a dev-controllable ingame mechanic that lets certain powers get around rooting if a particular player chooses to horizontally progress towards that playstyle.
This allows free movement, but gives much, much more control to the Devs and choice to the players.
It's darn near elegant. Definitely worth at least thinking about if you understand what it really means.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Right. You START with a "rooted" style of gameplay, but you don't have to remain STUCK with a "rooted" style of gameplay. Players would have the OPTION to [b]*INVEST*[/b] (note: keyword) in a more mobile capability so as to cast while moving. Thus, there would be a sense of ... progression ... in how the game plays at different levels of advancement. It would also mean that you can start throwing away some of the (inevitable) cookie cutters, since being able to cast while moving is a factor that does not conveniently (or easily) yield itself to spreadsheet analysis for cross-comparisons of perceived "value" to Players. Being able to "move faster" (or at least, less slowly while animating a Power activation) isn't a factor like DPS comparisons where you can just fire up the spreadsheet and let the math give you an answer.
Practical upshot would be that some Players wouldn't want to INVEST in being mobile while casting and thus would place a low value on such a capability. Other Players would have a different opinion and would be more willing to INVEST in such a capability. Net result? Some characters are "slippery" fighters who are almost always moving around while others are "plant the flag" types ... and BOTH playstyles would be supported and "valid" within the context of the game and its mechanics. It would be yet another way that everyone could make their own personal snowflake ... special ... and another way to promote a diversity of gameplay styles and strategies.
(to Empyrean: I have my moments ...)
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Is that similar to.. say.. gradually enhancing the animation/cast time (speeding up (by a fraction) an animation) of such individual powers that have that rooting?
hmmmm... Its an interesting notion. I just dont know how far it can get without a well rounded, thought out, Crafting System to support it. As long as its not Overwhelmingly so drastic from what a Beginner might be able to do. Like say, SO were slotted by a beginner, and IO's by a Vet.
A slight difference, but hopefully not an significant one. Sure, it might make the Vet feel better about sticking around for as long as they did, but I'm wondering how this might influence newcomers and not making them fell Inadequate. No Blue Pills?! ;)
If such a system were in place, I'd like/expect to see greater fluidity and mobility of action granted, automatically, as a character's level rose. An experienced hero should be able to perform more naturally and easily than a newbie, irrespective of training/slotting/enhancements.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Combat that is fundamentally different for new players is not a good thing. Create one combat system. Let us learn and perfect it. I'm not so principled that I don't see some appeal to having "enhancements" improve every aspect of the power, including movement. But the User Interface that creates is too nuanced and hard to control the variables.
Beyond that.. I will turn a game off if the low levels aren't fun. And I find stand still casting EXTREMELY not fun.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Turthfully the dev side of 'control' isn't affected whether or not rooting were affected by Refinements. It does add more work as it would be another pipe of data to track for performance purposes.
It would also create more work because, well, at the moment Refinements are inteded to affect how a power does what it does, that is the delivery of the effect(s).
Rooting is more a function built into certain mechanics and timing sequences.
Part of the rooting is also the feel of game play and using a lknger animating attack meant to impart the 'heaviness of effort' ends up feelng 'weightless'. Some powers would simply require rooting as part of the animation and not be subject to changing that.
Be that as it may, I'll broach the subject of adding movement functions to powers where appropriate. There are no promises other than bringing it up. Lookong at our power design set up it would put us back a bit on redifining those rooting calls and also defining when they are not meant to be altered no matter what.
And as Jaybezz stated it can lead to other problems down the road as players level where powers are rooted but depending on hiw player socket a power isn't rooted any more and can result in inconsistant play. It is something to take seriously into consideration when we discuss the matter further.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Huh. I wouldn't have thought it would be so potentially disruptive compared to other factors.
I'm not a game designer, and the rooting in CoH never bothered me, so didn't see the negative potential that's evidently there. But, aside from all that, if in fact it generates lots of work but gives no control advantage to the devs and no significant improvement in gameplay for the players, then it's not a good choice.
I will say that I do like some rooting, for the reason Tannim stated. Having to dig in to deliver your most powerful blast/strike/shot/power feels powerful and realistic. I know games aren't real, but you do want a somewhat believable feel, and anyone who has ever tried to shoot or throw anything--bow, gun, spear--or punch anyone on the run knows how impractical that is.
Boxers stay light and move, but always plant solid before the punch. Javelin throwers run but always block and plant before the throw. People who know how to shoot assume a weaver or isosceles stance before firing or it's just a waste of bullets. It's just body mechanics. Constantly sprinting while doing everything feels "floaty" and off in a game. At least some of the big powers should root a little.
Note I just said "some" and "a little". I'm not saying rooting has to be the dominant mechanic.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Fundamentally different FROM WHAT? Be Specific. Give references. Place markers. Sketch shapes. Don't just wave your hands around randomly and vaguely while laying claim to omniscience.
Note that I could level the exact same charge at City of Heroes with complete factual honesty. My Level 1 character doesn't play the same way as my Level 50++++ Incarnate does!
Filed under: WELL DUH!
What's the difference?
Powers.
Slots.
---> [b][i]* ENHANCEMENTS *[/i][/b] <---
Accolades.
Need I continue? (I should hope not...)
I am hard pressed to name a game where the introductory TUTORIAL plays exactly the same way as the end game RAID experience. The difference? Advancement. Investment. Experience.
What was the difference I was proposing between beginner and the end game style of play? Advancement. Investment. Experience.
It's almost as if I was searching for a way to make people's Build Choices, y'know ... MATTER ... in how they grow and develop their characters OVER TIME and over the course of their "super" career as a Titan. I mean, wouldn't it be nice if we weren't all carbon copies of each other's builds?
Nah. Can't have that.
JayBezz, I can only conclude that you are badly confused. I was advocating for "one" combat system with a continuum of possibilities within it. There would be a common starting point for all (ie. rooted casting by default), but that builds wouldn't be STUCK with that in perpetuity. What would they have to do? Advance. Invest. Experience.
Again, not to put to fine a point on it, but even City of Heroes "played" quite differently at different Levels. A Level 50 could do more than a Level 30 who could do more than a Level 20 who could do more than a Level 10 who of course played differently from a Level 1.
The combat SYSTEM was exactly the same all the way through. What the character(s) could *DO* and the "reach" of their INVESTMENTS enabled an evolution in how the game was played.
Heck, there were even examples of Powers that were "game changing" when they were acquired, but then over time could fall into disuse and become at best situational. My most vivid example of that was [url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Tanker_Melee.Ice_Melee.Ice_Patch]Ice Patch[/url] for */Ice Melee Tankers. Completely revolutionized the gameplay experience with the Powerset once acquired (usually in the low-20s). Turned dangerous encounters into cream puffs. And yet, by Level 50, use of the Power was marginal at best (and useless or counterproductive at worst).
You seem to be under the (to me at least) bizarre notion that combat ought to be some kind of static, unchanging experience from 1 to 50. Allow me to be one of the first to say ... that's a weird notion, if that's what you were angling for. I'm looking for a "dynamic" and [i]evolving[/i] gameplay experience, one in which the "performance" parameters of my characters "shift and GROW" as they continue to advance and INVEST ... in accordance with my experience(s) within the game.
Please explain why such an objective would be terrible.
In City of Heroes there were over 20 "flavors" of Enhancements, and that's before we even get to messing around with Origins. I'd like to think that City of Titans could get away with using [b][i]*12*[/i][/b] at most.
Who here thinks that keeping track of 12 types of Refinements is going to be too much for people to remember/figure out/manipulate?
Now, the downside to such an argument from me is that we haven't seen the Augment/Refinement scheme that's been cooked up yet behind the scenes. Suffice it to say, I'd very much like to kibitz on THAT discussion.
Okay, it's official. JayBezz is hopelessly confused. Either that he's gone into the straw man manufacturing business.
Are you trying to claim the title from [b]TheMightyPaladin[/b] for unfounded kneejerk reactionary?
And if you found rooted casting to be so offensive, how did you ever manage to play City of Heroes like ... AT ALL? I seem to remember something about rooted casting being mandatory in that game. Not optional. Not adjustable. Mandatory. It wasn't a case of "this is how it starts, but eventually you can invest to change it later." No, it was a case of "this is how it is and if you don't like it, go play something else."
A *LOT* of Players considered the "low levels" of City of Heroes to be not all that fun. When I started playing (back in Issue 2), the meme was ... Life Begins at 20. Why? Because that's when you could take Stamina (it wasn't an Inherent Power for a very long time) and could finally sustain yourself in combat for longer than 1 minute before needing to take a knee. Eventually, the conventional wisdom shifted to be more a matter of ... Life begins at 50 ... because of Incarnate Slots, and how much of a game changer they were.
The thing is, this sort of value judgement isn't a mere boolean decision for most people (me included). It isn't a question of Fun vs Not Fun in a black and white sort of way ... it's more of a continuum where beyond a certain point it becomes Fun Enough to keep playing.
I'm (again) hard pressed to think of anyone who thought that grinding out the [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Isolator]Isolator[/url] badge in Outbreak was an incredibly "fun" thing to do ... and yet a lot of people did it anyway (me included, on multiple characters, once I learned of the existence of the Badge and how to get it). Was it "fun" to do? No. Was it "fun" [i]to have done it[/i] and gotten the Badge for doing it? Yes ... even though I never made use of the Badge Title for any of my characters.
Sucks to be you then, I guess.
For some things it's going to be appropriate.
I'd like to see a situation in which for MOST Powers it's something that you can "grow out of" simply by INVESTING the necessary Refinements into specific Powers.
In other words, I have no problems with rooted casting being the "starter" default condition, but at the same time would prefer rooted casting to not be the "endpoint" default condition also. The difference between the two? Advancement. Investment. Experience.
It's almost as if I knew something about how these sorts of things are supposed to work. Almost ... but not quite, apparently ...
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Red, first can we please lay off using another poster's name with negative connotation?
You may feel some people's reactions are unfounded or a knee-jerk responce. Right or wrong as anyone's opinions or feelings are, they have a right to their feelings or opinions. We don't have to reference them in a negative sense.
Most of what Jaybezz may be referencing here is about how a game feels during play (or the game play), and how rooting vs. not rooting is more about the game play than it is about how a power functions.
Indeed, this is how our powers are designed with rooting in mind. Rooting or not rooting isn't a function of the power delivery itself, it is a function of mechanics a power uses and timing sequences. Refinements hook into the dlivery aspects of a power, that is how a power does what it does.
If player builds were to affect it, well it could drastically alter the way if feels to play the game, not to mention have untintended consquences of certain actions, which means that there would have to be particular powers that could never build away rooting.
Which is why we initially planned things the other way around. Rooting being part of the mechanics and timing squences only certain powers used, while other powers provide more freedom of movement, but everything has an effect on continuous movement and combat actions to make a cohesive feel of play in particular to when a power does cause rooting, returning to movement flows rather than bursts.
If the idea is that there is an advanced experience to the game, if all powers rooted in the beginning, it shouldn't hinge on how a player sockets their powers. It should be a natural progression of the game, otherwise we have ourselves the issue of something akin to "stamina is practically required for regular play" in which it is then patched into everyone's build anyway. Even then, we will end up with certain powers not being able to avoid rooting. Which brings us back to the current state of development we are using...no rooting for most powers, rooting inparted to certain mechanics powers may use and timing sequences.
Like I said earlier, I'll bring it up, but side-bar discussions thus far have not leaned in changing direction.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I could really get behind the idea that as my character leveled and I spent more slots (which is to say ANY) on mobility that I might be able to move more while acting.
As some have already said, there will always be some powers that will require Rooting and they should do so (looking at most PBAoEs here). However the idea that I can fire on the move for some things appeals to me. Sort of like always being able to use the first two Powers as a Blaster.
Sadly, I think we're too far down the road for many of our ideas. They would bring fundamental changes to the whole system and then we have to start all over again. I don't think any of us want that. Perhaps we should try to focus on plots, scenarios and story arcs until we get a better handle on how exactly the game will be played?
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...