Please make a difference between the two in powers? Really? It may be a minor gripe for some people but for me it was an annoying detail that broke immersion for me everytime, same for DCUO, that you had just one choice of a rifle that was also a shotgun, grenade launcher and flamethrower combined.
It makes no sense given that a machine gun and a shotgun or autoshotgun are completely different in look, SFX and effect yet both lumped into the same thing. If a bladed melee weapon and a blunt force melee weapon warrant different choices then really, rifle and shotgun should as well, so please make them different weapons?
The shotgun could be slower but do more damage per round, have more stopping power and have good knockback within certain range for humanoid/human-sized targets, guaranteed knockback at point blank range. It could have gas canister round, incendiary round, buckshot round, liquid nitrogen round etc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URrPA1OtvLw) plus an auto-volley round: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0ga_hDH3Ac
Rifle could be faster and longer ranged but mostly lighter on damage, have a sniper round option and more fancy fire patterns for multiple targets as powers, plus include an underslung grenade launcher that launches a few types of grenade which do more damage than the exotic shotgun rounds in a toss or throwing arc pattern instead of shooting it out like the shotgun would, but with a longer recharge time. A bigger bulletrap rifle-grenade power as well, plus a spring loaded bayonet for melee attack power, and clubbing with the rifle butt as a melee power too.
How viable is this?
"TRUST ME."
If power sets are defined as "this power does this, that power does that" (CoH model), then you're gonna get stuck with Smorgasbord Gun, no question.
But if you do it as a selectable weapon, like how there was an "ammo change" power in Dual Pistols, you might be able to get something more realistic. In this case, most of the "powers" in the powerset will be different weapon types, and activating the power simply switches to that weapon. Basically, they're all toggle powers, and if you have none of them going, then you get the "basic" weapon (pistol?) that you get with your first power. It'll be kind of weird, because that first power would be the "shoot gun" power, but its enhancements/augments/whatever would just enhance the basic weapon.
A later power could enable alternate fire modes on later weapons. Or some powers could be "attachments" to whatever weapon you have (e.g. underslung grenade launcher).
Hmm, I'm kind of liking this idea...
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Based on the information I've gathered about powers so far, I'm thinking that weapons will most likely be handled as animation or costume options. Powersets in CoT will be designed such that they provide certain generic qualities that you animate however you please. Think of powersets in terms of damage/range/effect qualities and not in terms of motif.
In this instance, you could perhaps choose a "medium-range AoE damage" powerset and couple it with shotgun animations. You could also choose a "long-range single-target damage" powerset and use a rifle. Ideally, weapons will be tied to [i]animations[/i] and not [i]costumes[/i] so that you can have different weapons for individual powers. I'm not sure if that's the plan, though.
Where did they say this? I mean, I understand that they're allowing a level of customization so your "fire" powerset doesn't have to be literally fire, but making them entirely generic and focusing them on "long-range single target" or "medium-range AoE" is restricting the player's options a lot. Most CoX power sets were rather diversified in their mix. And it would force players to do a lot more customization up front.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
To explain more thouroughly the concept is termed aesthetic decoupling. What a power does is not necessitated by what it looks like.
Certain sets may may utilize certain themes that limit the over al selections available.
A Burning blast set can use fire, wind, lasers, acid and other "things that burn" animations.
Further more you will be able to choose the emanation point for your attacks: hand, eyes, hand held object, the bird flying over your shoulder.
There will be no difference between a rifle or shot gun because Rifle and Shot Gun aren't sets themselves, the are costume pieces for the animations of sets.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Right, but a Rifle isn't an option for the Burning blast set... right?
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
What if your shotgun looks like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daewoo_Precision_Industries_USAS-12
I mean I get the point of the problem. It bothers me too but it's one of those things where I understand this as a limitation inherit in the game system and there's not much way to work around it without it being unrealistic, or unplayable.
Do you want to have a character hauling 2 or more rifle length guns around?
or would you prefer only being able to use rifle shots until you go back to your base or vehicle and switch weapons so you can only use shotgun blasts,
then have to switch again to use the flame thrower etc...
At least you could have the grenade launcher mounted under another weapon.
mind you some characters might be able to pull a different weapon out of nowhere any time they need it but it doesn't fit very many.
Where does he get them from?
He put the Arse in the Arsenal
He put the anal in the arseAnal
I never thought I'd get a chance to use that joke
it's probably no sillier than my Dungeons & Dragons characters who obviously have invisible caddies with golf bags full of bastard swords.
"which one do you recommend?"
"The +3 Flaming Bastard Sword Of Pure Good".
"Oh yes of course"
Mind you I would like it if one character could use both rifles and handguns. switching as needed, and I don't think that's undoable. He could also throw hand grenades.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Why shouldn't it be? If your concept is a rifle that shoots fire, then this would fit the bill. Drawing from Tannim222's post, you'd choose the Burning Blast set, choose a rifle as the emanation point, choose burning animations, and voilà, you got yourself "Burning Rifle" powers!
If Tannim222's post in any indication, powersets will be much more descriptive than the hypothetical examples I provided, so I think players should have enough direction to choose the powers they want. For those players who aren't interested in sifting through countless customization options, it might be helpful to have some default animation themes and templates for players to choose from.
Overall, this seems like the most flexible approach we could ask for. If you want more information, check out [url=https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts/625583]the Kickstarter update about animations and emanation points[/url] and [url=https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts/645893]the Kickstarter update about powersets[/url]. The former is very relevant to this discussion and specifically refers to "[using] a weapon to shoot fire."
It totally can. It is no more unreasonable than using a fairy wand, sword, casting a magic rune, performing a punch, or other options. A fireball type attack, that is a targeted area effect burning damage can be done from any weapon skin, to fighting style animation, to throwing a grenade. So long as the final visual effect still falls in line with burning,
It may not make sense to you, but another player character's rifle magically imbued with Dragonfire works just fine for another player. The difference is the theme is consistent with the effect. This avoids things like using an ice animation that does burning damage.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Gluke, in a City of Heroes context, you're essentially asking for a "Gunnery" Powerset involving weapons. Now, broadly speaking you could be talking about "guns" (rifles, shotguns, grenade launchers, etc.) or about using magic wands ... or whatever ... but the basic notion is to have a "shooter" Powerset. Whether it shoots kinetic projectiles (bullets, shells, grenades) or "[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fJlO7ZsWRE]little yellow bolts of light[/url]" is immaterial to the underlying game mechanics that the Powerset would use to describe the effects of what it does. So you're dealing with a "shooter" collection of Powers.
Define the uses of the Powers broadly enough and you've got a variety of things you can do animation wise with direct fire (as opposed to indirect fire):
Single Shot (single target)
Double Tap (single target)
Burst Fire (single target)
Full Auto (cone @ target)
Suppressing Fire (cone @ location)
Piercing Shot (cone narrowed to a line @ target sniping)
After that, if you want to do Target VoE you're basically looking at adding an underslung grenade launcher:
Launch Grenade (target VoE @ target)
Fire in the Hole (target VoE @ location)
That would then give you 8 total attacks, which I figure ought to be enough for City of Titans Powersets. As a result, you effectively wind up with an [url=http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/M41A_Pulse_Rifle]M41A Pulse Rifle[/url].
[img]http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/avp/images/8/8f/M41A_Pulse_Rifle.png/revision/latest?cb=20130524131631[/img]
Now, the actual FORM of the weapon could be a variety of things ... anything from a kinetic projectile "gun" to an energy rifle to a magic wand to whatever. But as far as the game mechanics are concerned, the above set of direct fire attacks (with potential "shoot around obstacles" performance via Fire in the Hole) would effectively work the same regardless of the costuming choice(s) for how to animate the Powerset.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
If we have Pulse Rifles, I want to be able to tape a Flamethrower onto it as well.......
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Tertiary Powerset ...
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I have no problem with someone doing that. I have a problem with that being the [i]primary[/i] or [i]only[/i] means of implementing a "rifle" powerset. It's way too limited. And you get right back to the OP's complaint of a single weapon doing ten wholly different things. Sure, makes perfect sense for a magic fairy wand, but a modern M16? Nope. (As a side note, if someone wants to swap "magic fairy wand" with "flamethrower", and build a character akin to TF2's Pyro, sure, let them! Just don't pretend that that model is workable for all gun-type implementations.)
One of the whole points of being a tool user is that you can switch tools to do different jobs. The old assault rifle set did this; it just did it with one big duct-tape ball of a weapon. So we're trying to figure out if there's a way to have a powerset that fixes that conceptual limitation. Hence my suggestion of a powerset that's a mode-switcher: a variety of attacks, but each with different devices (or sources or whatever; interchangable Metroid-style weapons?) so the powers are one or two "fire weapon" powers and the rest are "equip weapon" powers.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
With the possible exception of the Piercing Shot, all of the powers in [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/88381#comment-88381]Redlynne's post above[/url] seem not out of line for an [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/88381#comment-88381]M16 rifle[/url] with an attached [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M203_grenade_launcher]M203 grenade launcher[/url]. Looking at the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%9745mm_NATO]5.56mm NATO rounds[/url], especially the Armor Piercing M995, the Piercing Shot seems almost reasonable, as well. For those who want classic weapons instead of futuristic. ^_^
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
.
Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
What you state is too limited is the exact opposite of what aesthetic decoupling offers, more options. So what if an m16 can shoot bullets or ice blasts? If it is only capable of shooting bullets then it is therefor restricted to a set that only does bullets. And when the old game was given more weapon skins not all,of them accounted for every single aspect of what the power set was capable of doing.
This game is one that says here is a wide range of what is possible, you the player can determine what is plausible for your character.
One of our devs would go so far as saying he won't be happy until he can make it possible to spit bullets and shoot swords from eyes. This may seem like an exaggeration, but its a point about the immense flexibility of he system.
If gun models must be placed where they can only do things they look like that can do it will restrict what those models can be used for, and there goes the player with the normal looking shot gun that shoots Dragonfire because shotguns "don't shoot flames".
And the OP sated a couple of things that don't fall in line with design for the game. Shot guns only in slow sets, rifles in fast sets are possible distinctions, that will be more up to the powers team as a whole. Certain power sets will necessitate a restriction of the types of animations based on the theme of the set. But shotguns in sets that must have "stopping power" is something not likely to occur as it is. Itself too limited a distinction for the way we designed things. The power design system is agnostic toward melee weapons (sharp or bludgeoning) or hand to hand animations. Animation speed can be adjusted to suit the style of the set while using basically the same animations if needed, or different animations using the same weapon models.
It has been a difficult concept for people to come to grips with in the past. One which becomes easier to get a handle on once one sees the the nature of power sets and the possible animations therein.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
It's more difficult for us out here on the outside because we can't see what you're talking about, and try to playtest it to see what it can and can't do...
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
When I image this, i imagine one theme having an alternate animation for each power in the powerset.
So, an Artillery Powerset could use not only a different animation for the Rocket Launcher power, but could Also have a totally different type of weapon show (not a rocket launcher per se) in the Alternate animation(s). Just as long as the Rocket Blasts off towards the target! :)
ex:
[img]http://www.moviefancentral.com/images/pictures/review43046/600px-Iron_510.jpg?1366512272[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/SjPnAX1.png[/img]
Lin, I actually wasn't solely referring to those "on the outside", but including those of us who have worked on the game as well.
Izzy's is onto something there. It is pretty apt. Though it probably wouldn't be limited to an Artillary Set as the artillary in question could actually be used for a lot of things; non-explosive shelled artillary, fiery explosive, icy explosive and so on.
But let's take this back a step. Rifles and Shot Guns. They are merely skins that can be used in many sets because the what a power does is not necessarily dependent upon heat it looks like, so long as its visual effects fall in line with the theme of the set.
Rake Super Strength. It does't have to be a series of heavy punches and perhaps a stomping foot. It can use slower (read strong looking) martial arts animations, or the wielding of a sword or mace, the use of a earthen formed mallet from the hands. What might not be available In a super strength set is an animation that sets a target on fire, it's not part of the super strength theme. However, snag that handy power set augment that alters a portion of your set's damage type and put it into your super strength socket and you could end up with some fiery effects added to the animations, but that's another layer to the complexity.
Back to Shot Guns and Rifles. Let's say hypothetically for whatever reason, rifles were limited to fast sets and shot guns to slow ranged sets. Both skins might appear in a standard speed set (one that has a fair mix of faster and slower animations). Really though this is more dependant upon the theme of the set and what visually works with the theme. Hence no fire in super strength.
It is probably safer to say, get used to divorcing what a set does from how it looks. Take the Iron Man / War Machine pix from above and the idea of a rocket hits a target from range and explodes. Great idea for saying "this is always a rocket". When really it can also be a grenade, a plant that shoots a bean pod that explodes, or a [url=https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eRtT0hR_MpY]psychically projected attack that explodes[/url].
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I got that a few posts ago. I'm not arguing appearances; I'm wondering about effects and mechanics. Is there a ranged damage power set that "mode-switches" between its various powers, like one would switch weapons in an FPS? Such a "switching action" would be a disadvantage (animation time penalty), but could be made up for with slightly increased rate of fire or slightly reduced endurance cost (or CoT equivalent).
If such a thing exists, it's obvious that a multiple-gun visual implementation would be possible, and it would be a good solution to the OP's (and my) question.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
So you're basically saying: there is no spoon? Okay, cool. I also realize from reading certain other posts here that it's been said in answer to a lot of queries, so sorry for making you say it again.
My request just now becomes: please give us a good list of realistic as well as imagined gun-models to use as animation skins for ranged powers, ie assault rifles, battle rifles, carbines, bullpup rifles, sniper rifles, shotgun, autoshotguns, you name it, etc.
I would wonder how many players will use the completely open sandbox approach you're aiming for to its full potential and how many would rather save time and effort by just using a template and changing the colours a bit, maybe?
This question, also. I'd assume it would be the main charactertistic of a hybrid melee-ranged powerset if you gave the power skins weapons, but would it be viable for ANY powerset? Would this also ultimately enable the idea i asked about once (warning, wall of text: http://cityoftitans.com/forum/weaponized-objects-power) where you could skin any power as wielding a normally harmless inanimate object but with weird lethal effect and maybe attachment, which would give you a powerset of gimmick weapons as per Captain Boomerang, Penguin umbrellas, Casey Jones, etc?
"TRUST ME."
If there is a separation of appearance and effect the door is wide open to interpretation. You could have one set throwing Boomerangs and the same set shooting a pistol or a rifle or an umbrella gun. If we had a shoulder bag of objects each object could be singled out for use with a different power, power 1 uses a baseball bat, power 2 a hockey stick.
Now to the previous quote about mode switching. If there were a power set with mode switching and you wanted to use a different animation based on the mode, its enirely possible. However the animation changing itself does't necessitate a change in power aspects. The switching action in this case doesn't foce the player to choose a new amomation and of one was possible it can be set up in a way that new or current animations are both equally impacted when the mode is changed.
The mode change itself would be part of the power designer system we have which takes every thing a power does to determine output and provide parity of effects based on mechanics used.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Interesting. Very, very interesting.
The more I learn about "aesthetic decoupling" the more I like it.
This is going to be very difficult for those staunch conformists who believe B must always follow A, but for those of us who ask, "Why can't K follow A, or even W?", this is going to be a godsend.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My author page at Amazon: https://amzn.to/2MPvkRX
My novelty shirts: https://amzn.to/31Sld32
Not [i]him[/i] again. But I agree with your assessment, it'll make for potentially very interesting effects.
One other thing I've got to ask, bearing all this mind: will there be HAND-PUPPETS available as a pet?
"TRUST ME."
Mastermind Powerset is not due to be completed in time for game launch.
Besides, who would want to have Doctor Tyche as a pet?
/em ducks and runs
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
@Redlynne
Oh no you didn't! Mmmhmmmmm!
/headwobble /handsnap /pursedlips
Looking forward to an animation with summoning people dressed in black with white gloves and pained faces. Making large amounts of them and putting a sign up saying "Caution!! Mime Field"
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
Oh my goodness, could we really be speaking of boomerangs as possible weapons, is it my birthday?!?
Also I think the whole use any item for any same class power is a fantastic idea. It's a lot more work on the animation side but that kind of freedom in customization would be magical!
I would really look forward to creating a sniper for pulling baddies =3
The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One
Avatar by lilshironeko
Boomerang/Boomerang/Boomerang Powersets? I'm sold. Now, where have I seen this idea before ...?
[url=http://riseoftheguardians.wikia.com/wiki/E._Aster_Bunnymund][img]http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/riseoftheguardians/images/9/9d/Bunnymund.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121124233440[/img][/url]
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Love it @Redlynne! More boomerangs the better! :D
The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One
Avatar by lilshironeko
Boomerangs that explode on impact for BOOM!!erangs.
I want a Frisby animation set for Tron.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
Boom'Ear'Rang.
Too much? :{
Yes, but still funny! xD
And a tron frisbee would be an interesting weapon
The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One
Avatar by lilshironeko
Frisbee Armor/Frisbee Assault/ULTIMATE FRISBEE
Yeah ... NOW we're talkin'!
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Frisbee Armor, what exactly would that look like?
lol
The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One
Avatar by lilshironeko
This is scary!
Paladin keeps throwing stars in the pockets of his jacket.
Hurts like heck when he falls
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Frisbee. Far out.