Perhaps this wasn't the best place to put this topic, perhaps it can be moved to the proper place by a mod later.
So, I'd like to discuss some things that people have been talking about for city of titans and also reflect on some things that made cox unappealing for some people and how those things can be fixed with COT.
First thing I'd like to address, if the game should use real time combat, or use the same exact system as COX.
Personally, I think COT should have real time combat, for a number of different reasons, and I'll suggest ways to make it good because I know having combat like that can make an mmo feel too much like a beat em up. When games were being developed during COH's start, mmo's were not capable of having real time physics, it just wasn't practical at the time, too laggy, people dreamed of having real time combat but made due with what they had, even with Aion they had a psuedo dodge system where moving gave you evasion buff. Now, even with sub standard gaming pc's, it's very easy to have real time combat and more and more games are innovating on this potential. Instead of thinking of it as a, oh who ever holds block more wins, just think of the potential it could have and how to make it fair. Make it to where if you want to block, perhaps you could have a stamina bar, OR have to have a power or equipment to block and optimizing blocking would take away from other options since you used your resources for building your hero on blocking so well. Same with dodge, lets say by default, you can only dodge so much before you stamina runs out, or w/e works best. BUT, if you, lets say make a speedster, or an acrobatics hero, they can get abilities that let them dodge more, or teleport behind a target, or just moving fast enough to avoid a projectile, or an explosion, makes having dodge or speed actually feel good, to me it felt boring having travel powers that meant little to nothing in combat. You could also have counters to these defenses, block breaks, more aoe attacks to hit those nimble pests, holds and stuns, make the floor slippery, etc etc.
Lets say though, you don't want to worry about blocking or dodging, FINE. Make your hero tanky, heck you could even purposely get in the path of ranged attacks to protect your team mates knowing you will be fine, it could even open possibilities for playing support in new ways! A shield blaster type cane make energy walls that can block a big fire ball about to hit you and your allies, or fend off a massive amount of attacks with a protective dome for a few seconds, so instead of healing, you stop damage from happening as much in the first place with well placed shields, sounds pretty fun if you ask me. Just think of all the possibilities.
I had a hard time getting my friends into COH, they loved making a character, but their biggest complaints always revolved around finding enhancements and badges being your only motivation for doing hard missions boring to them, not being able to find unique gear, all the missions felt too similar to them, they didn't like not having an auto attack. These were the most common complaints from my friends that I just couldn't to give the game a chance outside of using my account for a few hours. It was a real shame. I have to admit, cox was a bit repetitive, and I admit it would have been cool being able to find more swag outside of just enhancements. Basically, in an mmo you have to give people things to shoot for too that they can show off, especially on their character. I know it sounds kind of petty, but we all get like that sometimes and it makes the player feel more accomplished. We could talk about what those things could potentially be here.
So keeping these things in mind, how could COT improve on these things that most people who didn't give coh a chance, and innovate on rewarding the player and keeping them engaged and wanting more, and keeping the game fresh and fun, yet in spirit of the old game.
I'm discussing this with my friends about why they just couldn't sink their teeth into coh, one so far is saying that he felt that DCUO was more rewarding, he liked having costume options but also liked being able to earn more to add to your collection, so your end game look was not only unique but also felt like an accomplishment, a character evolution if you will. He also felt, sort of like I mentioned earlier, that the game lacked content in terms of things to do in general, which the devs did try to do with the arena system and pvp and other things, but for some reason those things fell out of popularity fast, why do you all think that is? He also wants more freedom with customizing powers in both DCUO and COX, for example, if you want fire in DCUO, you have to be a tank.... Cox was a bit guilty of this limiting grief too, although to a lesser extent. Like for example, the roles ice fan fit into and how your character uses it, why does ice always have to be a power, per say? Why can't we choose to use science for our ice like captain cold or mr freeze? Or be a mage that exclusively uses ice magic? It can always have the familiar stuff to it, like slowing and holding people, but applied in different ways, like an ice melee dps with decent crowd control with his ice powers.
What made CoX fall short of WoW:
1) They didn't have the Blizzard money machine behind their development and launch.
2) They had an advertising budget smaller than a bigot's brain.
3) The Developers (and their corporate masters) made some bad decisions, refused to own up and chased off a bunch of players.
Whenever I see CoX compared to WoW I cringe. It's like comparing apples to Chevys. The two are only related by the fact that they're both MMOs. The similarity ends there.
Blizzard has made more money than God off of WoW which enables them to continue to pump out content.
WoW is built around raids and the end-game where CoX was all about the journey to get to 50.
WoW is so limited in choices as to choke the average CoX player and I'm just talking about the CC...not to mention the game.
CoX did what it did. WoW does what it does. The two are distinctly different.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
City of Heroes/Villains had a few big issues for me, the first being that a level 1 character and a level 20 character did not look any different. A lot of players want to get some swag and show it off, especially in an MMO that needs large time investments to make progress in. Secondly, I found combat very sluggish, every attack had a long animation for it, and your character would just sit there not doing anything waiting for cooldowns. Adding even an auto attack (for piddly damage even) would make combat at least FEEL a lot faster.
I think DCUO had it right with the rewards, you'd get costume pieces that would be saved to your character, allowing you to change the way you looked on the fly. Add that to enhancements and you have a very solid reward system right there. As for combat, I loved that each weapon and fighting style was completely different. Dual Pistols were good for generating combo points and energy, staff was good for tanking, etc.
While I am giving DCUO a lot of praise, it still didn't have it quite right in the super hero genre. A large amount of content was lacking (you never had enough quests in the same city to level) and only a few cities to go to at that. The power sets forced you to fill a roll, and even though a lot of characters looked completely unique, they all had the same powers and animations for them.
The one thing I want to see in City of Titans, is a way to customize your powers. If you want to be a blaster who throws fireballs, go for it. If you want to make a fire tank and keep yourself lit up like the human torch, I want to see a way to do that as well. If the dev team can come up with a way to expand powers to allow them to be used in a multitude of builds I would definately buy this game day one of release.
You do understand that Blizzard wasn't as huge as it was when WoW started, right? It's not going to be good by default just because you throw money at it, I know players that have played it since the beginning, and still play it. I was never a big WoW fan either, but I'd have to be blind to not see they did a lot of things right with their game.
I compare the games because they came out roughly around the same time, the reason? Well they both were showing their age, WoW especially is showing its age, YET it still trucks on fairly strong to this day, hell freakin', EQ is still trucking, explain that? Please, explain that to me....
Clearly COX was missing some things it needed to be more successful, instead of just rolling your eyes, look at the causality, if you don't want to use WoW as a reference, in spite of it being so outdated, then fine w/e, I made lots of other points. Don't just dismiss my entire thread because you hate WoW, that's just silly.
In my opinion, only two things:
1) Unique starting levels based on race -- would have loved to have had something similar for origins.
2) Weather.
For me, WoW was inferior to CoX in every other area. And that's not emotional WoW-hating hyperbole; I just do not enjoy playing that sort of MMO.
While I respect the opinions of those who want a different type of combat, I dearly hope CoT does not change combat significantly from that of CoX. The combat system in CoX was at the top of my list of reasons why I played it for 7 years and would still be playing today if I could.
Also, allow me to voice a dissenting opinion on unique gear. Lack of such was a selling point of CoX for me.
I loved CoX because it was [I]different[/I] from the myriad other MMOs out there. The only time I was disappointed in CoX was when they started adding elements to make it more like other MMOs. Devs, please keep CoT unique as CoX was instead of jumping on the boring MMO bandwagon. If people want these other features, there are already games out there that can satisfy those desires. I'm supporting CoT because I hope it will be [I]different[/I].
As for other games of the same age still trucking -- I believe that was a failure in NCSoft's judgment, not any flaw in the game itself. If NCSoft hadn't decided to kill it, it would still be going also.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Well the problem with wanting the game to be the same as the old, is that is a good reason to insure it will die. Its time to innovate and change it up. City of Heroes had a nice niche market for a time, but its time to appeal to a broader audience.
Okay so you want COT to be better by being different by not innovating on what it's trying to capture the old spirit of in the slightest? I'm not saying at all COT should be like every other game out right now, I'm saying it should capitalize on all the new possibilities. It's time to innovate and broaden the audience. Keep what was great about coh, but add to it, evolve it. If you keep it exactly the same, it WILL in fact, die. It has once already.
I don't necessarily hate WoW. But if had ever wanted to play it I would have, instead of playing CoH. Judging which game is better based on how "successful" they were is clearly a matter of opinion.
Obviously there's no denying that WoW in its lifetime has made many more millions of dollars than CoH could have ever dreamt of. But just like some people like Classical music and other people like Country there's no real way (or point) trying to make one of these games more like the other just to be more "successful" whatever that means to you.
I agree CoT has the chance to assess the things CoH did right or wrong and perhaps incorporate things that worked well in other MMOs. But I see absolutely no reason why CoT should become a literal WoW clone just so it can "make a bunch of money". There are plenty of movies out there which made hundreds of millions but are truly god-awful from a critical point of view. WoW already exists for people who wants to play that kind of game - for what its worth I hope CoT stays much more like CoH regardless if that limits its financial viability or not.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Why? If CoT manages to last for 8.5 years like CoH did then I be perfectly satisfied with that. *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Sure CoT can "innovate" as needed. But I reject out of hand the idea that it needs to be a WoW clone or it's instantly doomed to failure. CoH manage to "hang on" for 8.5 years without being a WoW clone - clearly CoT does not need to be 100% identical to WoW either.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
True, but maybe looking at WoW, picking up on features from it that were *not* in CoX, and then mixing the two together does not make you a clone either.
If that is the case, then Tabula Rasa was a clone of Planetside and Tribes....
Hell, if the MWM developers decided to implement active dodging and telegraphing of big attacks (ie so you can *see* where the attack will land) I wouldn't go calling it a Wildstar/Guild Wars 2/Final Fantasy 14 clone.
Course, we could always say that the CoX developers "stole" the idea of IO set bonuses from WoW ;)
(they didn't... I have no idea where it first crept up).
*edit* WoW in and of itself is not all that original either... they have taken features from other games, adapted them to their own needs and then polished them up.
Part of the reason for use of Tab Targeting a decade ago was the simple fact that High Speed Internet and broadband connections were not commonplace. A substantial part of the home internet connections were still in the 56k dialup modem era (I know, I was one of them). Network latency over dialup was just too high to manage any kind of real time combat system effectively.
Although the problem is "less" today than it was then, the trouble of laggy network connections to servers is still present, and is a substantial part of the reason why people say they don't want a "twitchy" gameplay interface akin to the Active Combat System of a game like TERA, which can be very UNforgiving for long distance connections between client and server (think south pacific places like Australia and New Zealand or even our friends in Europe and Asia).
This is why I have always very much liked the "hybrid" system that Tabula Rasa used, which was "twitchy" in terms of Target Acquisition in that you needed to put the Target Reticle in the center of your screen on your target in order to hit them with your weapon (so third person shooter-ish) ... but once a Target had your Reticle on it you could hit TAB in order to Target Lock onto it and then wouldn't need to keep it inside the Reticle any more in order to attack and hit that Target. It meant that there was a level of skill and engagement on the part of the Player in order to acquire a Target (ie. no keybind for TargetEnemyNear) that was "twitchy" but once you did that you could Tab Lock onto your Target and "relax" and attack it WITHOUT needing "twitchy" levels of camera control and accuracy in order to continuously engage your Target. So you kind of got the best of both world, in that respect. You got engaging gameplay where your skill in coordinating movement and camera control "mattered" in terms of selecting your Target(s), but then you could Tab Lock onto them and continue prosecuting your attacks just the same as if you'd Tab Targeted them in a game like City of Heroes (provided the Target stayed in front of you on your screen somewhere).
The system even worked well for the one "melee" class in Tabula Rasa ... the Spy ... which was what I played. It was a very intuitive system, once you got used to it. The only downside was that since you were constantly using your mouse for camera control, you had to use a toggle key to bring up a mouse cursor on the screen (similar to how TERA runs its gameplay interface today), which would disable camera movement so as to give you cursor control instead.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
The OP talked about 'real time combat' as if it were a Thing. Something that we'd all recognize as critical. Unfortunately, I have no idea what 'real time combat' is supposed to mean.
Going by the Words, I'm not even sure it's Possible. Between server-loading and the way many ISPs throttle streaming content, like games, real-time synchronization is improbable at best.
So, I'm curious. What does this 'real time combat' mean? How would my experience be different from CoH? How was combat in CoH not 'real time'?
I'm not even going to touch the question of WoW.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I don't think the intent from anyone is to make it a "WoW Clone". Having played a good variety of MMOs going all the way back to the day of BBS text adventures (Legend of the Red Dragon. Anyone? Anyone?!), I can say that you can take bits and pieces and incorporate them without being a clone.
For example. WoW's XML based GUI. You could create your own GUI, adding elements and re-arranging them via XML script. That was FRICKIN' awesome. It allowed you to customize (or copy someone else's) how your HUD looked without being restricted by what the devs put in the options menu. I am all for that. Adding it doesn't make it a WoW clone, just adds a cool feature that you can use.
CoX's end-game was (for me) really about trying to get the uber-enhancements. The only problem was, nobody could really tell you had them other than "Damn, that attack just did HOW much damage?!". If CoT is looking to have something similar, then I think it would be nice to have enhancements cause an actual variation to your powers. Attack bonuses actually make that cone attack's effects larger, stuff like that.
CoX did have some of the "getting new equipment" thing going for it, but only in the way of Capes and Auras. There were some additional costumes you could get via events on the way up as well. But all in all, each costume you had was up to your imagination, and personally I feel that about fits things right.
Just my $0.02 :)
You mean to tell me that CoH didn't have Ice powers in the Tank AT sets, or the Blaster AT sets, or the Defender AT sets, or the Scrapper AT sets, or the Controller AT sets? (that goes for the villain ATs as well)
From what I understand, which I might have misread or misunderstood, CoT will have different emanation points available for powers. So, you have a character that shoots ice, fire, or sparkly fairy dust out of their chest, if you so desire.
I understand that most MMOs work under the paradigm that "when you get more powerful you're supposed to LOOK more powerful" with new gear or power effects. That's all well and good. But the thing that makes superhero MMOs a bit different is that the player should really have COMPLETE control over how their characters look whether they're level 1 or level 1,000. When was the last time you saw Superman sport better "gear" when he gained a level?
If you want to introduce the idea that your powers can look "bigger/better" as you get more powerful I see nothing wrong with that. But those changes should be handled as OPTIONAL unlocks, not as something that's automatically forced on people. You may want to strut around looking like a god at max level but maybe I don't want my look to change at all regardless of what level I am.
This is a case in point where you can't always automatically apply features from "fantasy-based" MMOs directly to superhero MMOs just because those features were "successful" there. Apples and Oranges, people.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Definitely can agree to that; really when you think about it gaining new powers was the "check out my new gear" of CoX.
I always felt that enhancements should add some additional kind of effect (they do affect your powers, after all), but again that's just my preference.
In the end for me, CoX was way better than WoW. WoW (and most other Fantasy MMOs) were always just about grinding, and most missions were extremely repetitive. To this day the only MMO I ever feel like going back to is City of Heroes. None of the others - be it WoW, Aion, Terra, FFXI, and so on - have that pull on me.
Okay, first of all, you guys are assuming a lot of things I never said. I never said, hey, lets make a wow clone. I never suggested that at all. I like coh waaaaaaaaaaaay better than wow, I never even said I thought wow was good on a personal level. Where are you people getting "Lets make a wow clone." From what I'm saying? I'm using wow as a point of reference on more of a grand scheme of things sort of level since it came out around the same time as city of heros and had to face the same challenges when presenting itself to its audience.
Why was wow able to satisfy its audience better than city of heroes was able to? To the point where NCsoft felt it was no longer worth running any more? Does that make sense?
Again, I AM NOT saying COT should be a WOW clone, okay? The idea of that is retarded and completely off base, get that idea out of your head, it's not even remotely close to what I was getting at and only ONE of the things I talked about, just one. >_>
As for people wanting the game to be exactly like coh, with no innovation and no attempt to actually appeal to a broader audience, you never argued how that's good for the game as a whole, so far you proven you don't give a crap about the game actually succeeding, you just want coh back. How about you just either A: Look for some one who's already running a cox pirated server to relive it like it was or B: find a way to do it yourself, you can live in the exact replica of the past with absolutely nothing new and no reason to try to actually survive in todays market, while the rest of us venture forth into the future while carrying and evolving things that made the old game great.
I'm just gonna take a moment to remind you all as I drive my points on home, I am not, NOT saying COT should be a wow clone. This is for you skimmers who don't actually read, hey. BUZZ WORD, NOT LIKE WOW< NOT WOW CLONE BUZZ WORD< HEY EASY TO SKIM READ. Moving on to those who pay attention.
I regards to Redlynne, guild wars 2 seems to use a similar system to what you describe, in fact I see many people praise tabula rassa (even though that game from technical standpoints was an enormous failure) yet a lot of people reject guild wars 2 so much, why? :\ I think you could have tab targeting and still have actual physics and the ability to avoid things coming at you with real time combat. I've never seen connectivity as an issue for most, planet side 2 is a prime example, it's time to upgrade your rig and join the present, no offense. If you live some where like Spain where their internet nationally is just terrible, then sorry? But yeah, kind of a narrow problem at this rate. I play planet side 2 at full graphics with a moderately priced pc with reasonable internet, nowhere near top of the line, with zero frame rate issues while flying a mosquito. Most hard core pc builders would shrug and laugh at my 560gtx card with 16GB of RAM. Hell even 16GM of RAM is kind of overkill for most games.
Have you been living under a rock fireheart? It's called first person shooters, games that use actual collision detection and physics to determine a successful hit or not. Lots of mmo's use it now. Guild wars 2, DC universe online, Tera, and now the elder scrolls online even use it. Yes, it IS a thing, I call it real time combat because old mmo's like COX didn't use real time combat, it's why a ranged attack would follow you around no matter where you went or how you moved, because it already calculated if it hit based on your defense (which in coh was the stat for dodging, so it was all luck based). In other words, luck based on stats vs skill and timing. It's not something I made up, it's become the industry standard.
Thanks for your input Geekswordsman, you seem to actually get the points I was trying to make, and that it had nothing to do with making a WoW clone.
To Twisted Toon: okay maybe ice wasn't a great example, and to be honest, DCUO was more restrictive in this regard, but some themes did feel a bit pigeon holed, which you have to restrict some things, in certain logical ways, I understand, but I was going more off of what people who didn't give the game a chance complained about and made them ultimately decide COX wasn't for them. I had to play COX alone for the most part, my friends just couldn't get into it. We have to consider their opinions, the broader audience, if you will. If more people get on board, it can only mean more success for the game, and more things we can see happen for the game and it lasting a long time. I'm not saying we should only pander to them, I'm just saying the game even felt me a bit wanting in some areas, lets address those things.
Lothic, you're making me face palm man. Tell me, if it's apples and oranges, then why not have apples and oranges? Is having oranges in there really lessening your experience of enjoying an apple? hm? It's just having more options, you don't HAVE to acquire that orange, but why deny it entirely from those that want it? I know it may seem silly to you, but to the other side of the spectrum, you sound silly, why not unite more flags of gaming here, make the game more widely appealing and grow from that?
A lot of you are missing the points I'm trying to make. I seem to forget that city of heroes also attracted a lot of people who aren't really gamers, no offense, you're comic fans that got into a game, inspired by comics, I forgot that many people I grouped with, I spent hours just trying to teach them how to move their character and use the user interface, which to me just came natural since I'm used to it. Many people didn't even know about the chat window, they only looked for the talk bubbles above heads, because they're used to reading a comic book. So of course when I try to talk about how the game is developed, a lot of you are gonna think I'm talking nonsense. It also makes sense why you want city of titans to basically be a clone with nothing new, you don't want to move away from your comfort zone, and hate certain buzz words, like Wow. XD Doesn't matter the context apparently, using wow as a point of reference for the pure reason of, this game is showing it's age just like coh did, I can use that as an example. BIG MISTAKE, holy crap... x.x
Except that in WoW that just meant everyone wound up wearing shoulder pauldrons the size of their torso on each shoulder ...
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
That's just the art style, besides, COX had lots of overly big shoulder options too. But I mean there's nothing wrong with putting things in the game to earn and shoot for, doesn't always have to be gear, could be one option though, DCUO does it and it worked quite great for that. Coh did it too technically, with earning extra powers, some temp, some you could keep, badges, etc etc. Some people just like seeing it on their character. So when people see them, they will know they did ______ task force. Make it to where you can change the color template and texture to go with your set theme you made.
You say that, but 8.5 years wasn't enough to keep people satisfied. Look at all that NCSoft hate that happened because people weren't okay with 8.5 years. :p
While I do think it ended to early, I did at least realize it wouldn't last forever. :/ I did however think we'd see much less activity from the devs and players before that day came.
As to the OP, WoW had name recognition, not only the Blizzard name, but the Warcraft game. People who never played a MMO or even heard of an MMO, got into WoW based on the idea of "Warcraft".
Now I won't mind it if CoT did do the DCUO route when it comes to outfits, but at the same time, if they do that, they better give a lot more than DCUO did to start. Seriously, DCUO is just lacking in outfits, which is only made worse in the lack of body types.
In all fairness, it's time to set cards on the table. You referenced WoW while saying that CoT shouldn't be a WoW clone. Fair enough.
So, in your opinion, what about WoW was so cool you think CoT should at least look at it and maybe try to incorporate it? Maybe if we're all on the same page we can be understood a little better.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
City of heroes had a great selling point, be your dream super hero character and fight villainy with thousands of other players and your friends. Yes I understand blizzard had it's war craft name, but if they made a shit game and all the bad decisions, then I doubt they would have lasted long. Look at what activision is doing with it now, so many people hate the decisions they've been making, they're losing long time fans of the game, most people I know that have recently left, left because of what activision has been doing.
There are TONS of people who have never played games before in their life, get into COH because they love comic books.
I wont lie though, DCUO needs more costume options to build on how they do things to make it better, can't argue with that, still a great idea though.
The point is, YEAH, blizzard had a great IP to work off of, but they made it a great IP in the first place, Activision is running the IP into the ground, FAST.
That's the thing, I never played WoW long, so that's a very good question, look at what is happening to WoW since Acitivision fired most of the original devs, a lot of people I know that have played it since the beginning left, because they hate what activision is doing to it.
I really wish I knew what that golden, secret ingredient was that worked so well, and is now presently gone, now that the game is being ran by different people.
I honestly don't get it, there's got to be something to it, what did the original devs do for wow that made it so appealing to WoW heads?
(sorry for double post)
Having played WoW for 2 years (between Issues 6 and 9) quite happily, I'd have to say that one of the really MAJOR differences between WoW and City of Heroes was ... the sheer lack of Zoning. You didn't run 2 minutes in one direction and hit a wall or a zone loading screen. You could enter buildings and you would [i]actually enter the building[/i] without being hit by a zone loading screen. You could fly across entire continents(!) without ever once hitting a zone loading screen. The world was VAST and [b]contiguous[/b], and you got around inside the zones by actually MOVING THROUGH THEM rather than just hitting a "teleport point" like a Tram Station or a Ferry (although there are ships that "ferry" Players between the continents). This had the effect of making you, as a Player, very conscious of how large the *scope* was of the world, because you measured distances not so much in Zone Changes but rather in Travel Time spent in minutes. Of course, this was before they decided to put a Flight Point every 300 steps, but that's a "mistake" they made following the Return of Deathwing.
Another really major point for WoW was that the environments were decidedly NON-rectilinear. Heck, even the buildings seemed to often be averse to the notion of 90 degree angles, which often made constructions look like they were made by hand, rather than by machine tools (ie. "modern" construction methods). Zone regions, even if they were basically square, had a more organic feel to them in that they weren't PERFECTLY square. City of Heroes loses completely on this point when you think of the street layouts of Paragon City where the only corners ever allowed were all 90 degree turns, no matter how stupid or strange that would be. Personally, I always wondered what Baumton would have looked like before it became Boomtown, and always figured that the street layout for the place must have been the most useless M.C. Escher-esque SimCity Mayor On Acid design ever formulated.
It's been mentioned in other posts, but I'll bring it up here again, is that WoW had a color palette that was inviting to look at ... especially in the starter areas. Thinking back on it now, I realize that this basic color palette is one of the reasons why when I played Tabula Rasa, I thought that adventuring around on Foreas (a pretty green planet with trees and grass and so on) was actually pretty nice. Then I got to Arieki ... the OTHER planet ... and was confronted by dark, gritty yuck on a planet with active volcanism going on almost everywhere. I hadn't even been on Arieki for more than 30 minutes before I decided that the Bane [b]could have[/b] Arieki and that the AFS really ought to just pull back and consolidate on Foreas so as to win the war on Foreas. Playing on Arieki was [i]dreary to look at[/i] because it was a Grim Dark™ setting, whereas Foreas had been a Bright And Colorful setting. Don't get me wrong, some of the work done in the later zones on Arieki was incredibly epic and stunning ... but it was also a place that I really didn't want to have to fight over because it was mainly just rocks and mud (and rivers of lava!). So this is an example of where a single game (Tabula Rasa) had two different art styles (Bright Colorful and Grim Dark) for two different planets, and those art styles REALLY had a subconscious psychological effect on me as far as the environmentals go (now that I look back in retrospect).
It was literally going from [url=http://static.gamespot.com/uploads/scale_super/gamespot/images/2007/240/reviews/819698-516716_20070829_002.jpg]THIS[/url]:
[img]http://static.gamespot.com/uploads/scale_super/gamespot/images/2007/240/reviews/819698-516716_20070829_002.jpg[/img]
... to [url=http://static.gamespot.com/uploads/scale_super/gamespot/images/2007/221/reviews/814695-516716_20070810_001.jpg]THIS[/url]
[img]http://static.gamespot.com/uploads/scale_super/gamespot/images/2007/221/reviews/814695-516716_20070810_001.jpg[/img]
Guess which planet I'd rather fight for (and fight on!).
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Just for the record, I don't want CoT to be exactly like CoX. I love the innovations regarding alignment and mission clues discussed in the KS updates. I just don't want them to make any changes to the core of combat, because it was one of the things I liked best about CoX and -- regardless of all the other gingerbread -- it's the one thing you spend the most time doing when playing the game.
I don't believe the way it was designed was wholly down to technological limitations. I liked it because it was fun and could be casual. I would play FPSes for the adrenaline rush and then come to CoX to relax. (Not that there weren't adrenaline rushes in CoX battles sometimes!) For me, CoX-style combat was the single most important mechanic that made CoX fun, so I am hoping CoT will be very similar.
Important point: just because something is newer does not make it better. It *might* be, but it's equally possible that the tried and true method is superior. I want CoX-style combat because I like it better than combat in any other MMO. Anyone who would like a different style is of course entitled to state that preference and the reasons why. Simply stating that something is older is insufficient reason for change.
Second point: not every business has the goal of gaining a global market share. Every country I have ever visited has a McDonald's. Their food is ok, but for me it doesn't hold a torch to the meal I had a couple months ago in a small 8-table restaurant on the Isle of Skye. I don't know what MWM's goals are, but I can say for my own pleasure I'd rather have a small sustainable game that feels like CoX than a global juggernaut that feels more like WoW. (Not accusing anyone of asking for a clone, btw.) Trying to make CoT appeal to everyone seems to me to risk making it like all the other MMOs out there that I don't want to play.
Finally, let's try to avoid dragging the debate down with "why don't you leave"-type arguments. An easy counter to "if you want CoX combat why don't you just go play CoX on a pirate server?" is "if you want action combat why don't you play one of the many other MMOs out there?" I don't believe comments like that shed much light on the discussion.
Spurn all ye kindle.
OK, Redlynne, good point about lack of zones. I didn't really mind that in CoX, but I have to admit that's a WoW characteristic I wouldn't mind seeing in CoT -- and one they seem to be planning.
Also fair point re: too much 90 degrees. Would you agree they did better with city design when it came to Praetoria?
Spurn all ye kindle.
Two Words..
Glove hands.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
SO MUCH BETTER with Praetoria it wasn't even funny.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Please, please, PLEASE god. NO REAL TIME COMBAT. Tab to target is still the way to go. There's a reason I don't play MMOs right now. If I wanted to play real time combat or have to aim to hit my target I WOULD PLAY A FPS.
Also if I may, my .02 on why WoW was and still is popular.
1. As already mentioned, not only The enormous world with no loading zones but the individual towns were actually fun to hang around in and fun to explore.
2. This is actually the number 1 reason I played WoW since launch and still go back now and then. What I like to call "the side shows." If I didn't want to grind or wait the 2 hours for a raid team, there was a crap ton of fun things I could do to just waste time. I can't tell you how many hours I spent just fishing, getting my char drunk, mining / herbal-lizing or, and the best one, searching for the epic pets.
Wanna know what WoW does? It makes me want to waste time in its world.
Every game out that has the carrot on the stick. That level 50 that drives people and creates the legendary 72 straight hour game marathons. But what happens when u reach that 50? You get bored, regardless of end game content. The GREAT games. The games that become the pixelized crack are the ones that make me want to log in and do nothing.
That was WoW and that was COH. Man I loved wasting time in the D. And know what I did in the D? Yep, absolutely nothing!! But I couldn't wait to do it, all over again the next day!!
You knew him as Christian Shepherd.
Yeah but don't you think using a system that was designed around the technological limitations of the time nearly a decade ago a bit counter productive and a tragic waste of potential? That style of game play has seen it's time and most people are tired of it, why make a new game only to have nothing but the same old? Besides it's not like I was suggesting to do away with that game play, you could make your character in a way where they can just take stuff in the face and not bother moving, why does your preference have to dictate the entirety of how everyone should play the game and build their characters?
Besides, if the game only appeals to a very small audience, how do you expect it to last very long? I know it's being made by fans, for fans, but why stay stuck in the past and make no attempt at evolving the actual game play? You're not making a solid argument at all, you're ONLY reasoning for wanting it the same is just that, it's how YOU want it, you were okay with it being the same, is that really your only argument on that matter? Screw success, screw appealing to other players? Screw trying to attract new players? I think your line of logic seems a bit stubborn and self centered. To be quite frank.
Also, if my arguments have yet to be countered so easily by you, you never debunked what I said, you only stated that, you want it such and such a way, you never said, why it's better to not evolve, why innovating with modern technology would make the game like every other by default? Why can't the game utilize modern horizons with technology without being unique? Is being the only developer that doesn't get with the times really the way you want to be a "unique" game? Also, I listed quite a few ways you could play the old way in my first post, while having new ways to use real time physics (like with taking hits for people or using actual shields (not buffs) to block ranged attacks and such. But you ignored them completely and stated, nope old is better, because I like it that way, there for I'm correct and you're not because my preference>sound reasoning. So there.
I mean, really? Come on now. You wanna prove my ideas and reasoning are so easily debunked, then give me something besides where your old fashioned preferences are. I'll say it again, if you want it to be so much like classic Cox, then play on a pirated player ran server if you can find one.
As to Redlynne, thanks for you input, I can see where you're coming from there, now being able to just explore the vast city with your travel power without having to always stop at trains or zone doors would be really cool. They could have done a better job adding a sense of awe to the city too. Don't get me wrong, I loved the city, I loved hanging out with people at the starter zones, not many games gave me much reason to come back to the humble place I started again and again to socialize. But some areas did kinda feel a bit too barren, I like step into a new area and just take a moment just to absorb what I'm looking at and go, wow... :U
Guild wars 2 uses tab targeting and real time combat, and the combat works just fine and is a load of fun. You're being closed minded, my friend.
You guys are so stuck in the past, why is a combat system that's a decade old the way to go? We've been there, we've done that, it's had it's go, we have better technology now, we can do so much more, so much better, and you can still have harmony between the game styles, again, guild wars 2 is a perfect example of that.
I'd say fantasy also tends to attract a wider audience, but who knows, recent superhero blockbuster films, a new superhero mmo, maaaaaybe...with enough advertising. I would hope CoT gets some free advertising with it being created through volunteers.
Rather good point, and word of mouth does help, but I wouldn't want this game to suffer the same fate as blood line champions because of total lack of advertisement.
Also, perhaps making the game available on steam would help too, not exclusively on steam since some people don't like steam, but could help a lot.
To FalconStriker: I acknowledge the points you are making and understand that there is certainly an appeal to looking at what others have done quite successfully in order to possibly make our game successful, but please try to listen as well. I am not trying to offend you, but I'm noticing you are almost going on the offensive. Using phrases like "you are stuck in the past," "you are not real gamers," and "your old preferences" you seem to just be attacking people who disagree with you. Again, sorry, that is just what I feel like I'm seeing. People are a little bit nostalgic of the past, as they grew to love the game and created a real community with it.
As for my other thoughts while reading these posts: regarding the "more powerful look" as you level up, I can only say a few things to that. First, CoX was never about "showing off," it was about loving your character and as mentioned before, allowing full costume access from level one. While I acknowledge the point that we should not limit others from playing their way as well, I have to add that this system which restricted players from "showing off all their best gear" made (in my opinion) a real difference in terms of community building. It specifically did NOT attract people with the mentality that they had to prove how much better they were than others. And even if that is not the intention for someone who is proud of their accomplishments, it does sort of give off that image to new players or those you haven't met before - it seems like people want to be better than you and they want for you to know it. CoX was, and I hope CoT will be, a cooperative game that was about how you could work with other players, not prove you were better than them - at least on my server.
On that note, its also true that many of the CoX fans began as comic book fans, and it drew in older age groups than your typical WoW player. I also found this to be appealing. Its not so much that I did not like WoW, in fact I like it and played it for a while, but with CoX, you just got a different gaming experience. In WoW, I could not help but notice people getting upset easily if you did not know your part in a dungeon, and there were people eager to prove dominance over others - mind you I played exclusively on PvE servers and I still felt some pressures. Again, I'm not saying this is all bad, I guess CoX was just a refreshing change of pace. It feels good that the default mode for teaming was "if we fail, we can always try again" and if you asked for help, people were happy to take the time to give it to you.
And certainly there were PvP zones for people who were into that kind of thing, just as there are many places safe from PvP in WoW, but the difference comes down to attitude. Maybe they weren't typical gamers, but that was even more appealing. Being a gamer myself since the age of 4, I found myself in a totally new environment in which my highly experienced kind was in the minority, at least for a while. But I found myself adapting to THEIR rules, these new standards for interaction in a game in which you can often count on other heroes to truly be mentors to you and to be understanding with your failures.
So when it comes to "expanding the audience" I understand that there is some merit to that, but I would just like to qualify that, that if we try to expand the audience, make sure people are clear that this is not a place for people to try to prove their manliness through the internet or to bully people into doing things their way. It should be a place of refuge for people who avoid conflict (other than with AIs) and want to play a game in which they have nothing to prove.
If I've offended anyone here, I'm sorry, that was not my intent. I hope I've said a few things that resonate with those who loved CoX, and I welcome anyone to challenge anything I've said. (But as you may gather from my post, I don't like confrontation or competition, just working together to reach our common goals.)
I own several hammers. Know why the basic design of the hammer hasn't changed in decades? It works. Not all of us run to the new sexy thing just because it's the new sexy thing. Some of us do things the way we do them because we LIKE doing them that way. Personally, I have bad hands and my last try at a twitch game ended badly. I don't care how cool it looks or how new it is...if it doesn't work for me then it doesn't work for me. CoT has been touted for months as the spiritual successor to CoH. CoH never used twitch systems. The players didn't want twitch systems. Please stop trying to sell us on twitch systems.
I have no problem looking at new ideas. However what you're suggesting would change a core mechanic of the game we're trying to emulate. No thank you.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
You implied in the Title and elsewhere, that WoW was a better game and that CoT should be more like WoW.
There you go again.
City of Heroes [u]was[/u] better able to satisfy its audience than WoW was, or they would have quit CoH to go play WoW.
I really don't see what you mean by 'innovation'. You have yet to make a suggestion here, about a concrete 'innovation' that CoT could make over CoH.
And maybe I'll even agree with you - I don't want to play some other crappy game, I want to play City of Heroes, and I really don't care what some nebulous, undefined 'broader audience' wants. You're forgetting that CoH was [u]successful[/u] before it was closed.
Okay, if you like that stuff, go play it and leave my game alone.
No, I haven't been living under a rock, I've been playing a game that I like, called City of Heroes. I don't play FPS. I play MMOs. When I tried FPS, I didn't like it and chose to play City of Heroes, instead. Now that I'm free to Not play CoH, I still don't play FPS, I play other MMOs. Several other MMOs, none of which are like FPSs.
Now you're spewing venom and telling everyone who responds negatively to your attack-language, that they're obviously stupid, because only a stupid person would like City of Heroes more than... whatever it is that you're talking about.
And you have YET to make a coherent suggestion for a system that would improve the City.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I played CoH from when I started in the first winter event, where I thought the thing everyone did was stand around and take on giant snowmen until it's closing and I'd love for it to feel like TERA in terms of twitch combat. :p
So, I'd say your comment that players didn't want twitch combat is a bit off.
As to what is a spiritual successor, still a matter of opinion. To me, COT being a spiritual successor means superhero mmo done right. This means updated game. Something I even said on the CoH forums, that CoH needed certain updates, that sadly they couldn't seem to do. :(
City of Heroes is dead. City of Titans isn't City of Heroes. You say repeatedly it's CoH you want to play, but you're not getting CoH, you're getting CoT.
Now, on what would improve upon CoH, was always up for debate even when CoH wasn't dead. What would improve the City? Some say twitch would!
I do think choices of many animations to the same attack is one that can be agreed upon by everyone. While I agree on this, I hope it's done right. Remember what they had to do in CoH for multiple animations? Make them all the same length, because the shortest animation was always considered the best for DPS.
Well, I would love to see it setup were it's less a worry on what is the shortest animation, and people are just choosing the attacks they generally think looks the best or fits their character the best concept wise, and the devs not having to fit all animations into the same length of time.
I do like CO, and kinda like DCUO's combat... But I prefer CoH still.
It just looked awesome, nailing 10 guys crowding in around you, smashing them down. It was cool
I do admit, CoH was a bit repetitive... But so is CO (Go and these guys, these guys and bring me this) DCUO (Beat up these guys, break these things and then do this), WoW (Kill these things, collect 20 things off of them and return to me) and most every other MMO out there. What matters is how enjoyable it is while your doing it, and the company you keep.
As for why WoW works? Well, they had three games (Plus Expansions) out for them when WoW came out, they had an expansive world to explore, deep lore, but I think it just had that 'it' factor. You know, one of those things where it might not be that good, or it is good but not great, or whatever? WoW has it.
To be fair though, CoH had an expansive world to explore (Zoned, but that's how it was), deep lore (Very deep) and had it's own wow factor. Maybe not enough to make it as big of a hit as it deserved to be, but enough of one that it lasted for most of a decade and could have gone on had the plug not been pulled.
Seriously, why pull the plug on that game? Made no damn sense.
While on forums you might hear otherwise with comments such as "It's look is to cartoony. Oh and my friends think that too!" I'd say for most people, the aesthetics of WoW are quite pleasing to a majority of people.
Not just the colors, but the look of the characters. While I didn't care for the look of all the races in WoW (gaaah humans just looked terrible imo), I loved both elf races and the undead!
My only problem with WoW was as soon as I got the look I wanted to keep, I couldn't keep it. YAY! Worked my butt off for this awesome looking sword and armor! Oh, look, new and better gear is out, it looks terrible, and I can't keep the look I want and worked for.
Which, I'm told, is not the case now, but that happened so much later, it was to late to get back into WoW. :p
Quite right, in that instance I was using 'City' to refer to both of the cities. It was also directed, like that whole post, at FalconStriker. He has yet to propose a positive suggestion.
Alright, would accept the suggestion that a significant portion of CoH players enjoyed the game because it was not 'twitch to win'? That some were Able to enjoy the game because there was no requirement to aim-to-hit or block-to-defend? That the minimum requirements of being able to move your character and fire off powers in a coherent fashion made it possible for people of all ages and a many abilities to enjoy the game together?
I don't think we're trying to imply that 'all' CoH players want that, but it might be enough to make a community.
Many evangelists for twitch-systems are saying, "Look at all of the wonderful games that are using twitch-systems now!" They get upset when I reply, "Great, why don't you go and play that, instead of trying to re-make one of the few games that _I_ enjoy into a game like that." Because, we might note, I am Not playing those other games... so there might be a reason for that.
I have had people say, "Oh, well all you need to enjoy that new game is a new computer with all of the latest upgrades!" They call me names when I suggest that I can't afford to spend money on that. They say I'm not a 'real gamer'. *sigh*
People talk about how great some other game's PvP system is...
Yeah, let's stop.
Here's the thing, though. The MWM Devs are talking about an improved successor to City of Heroes. They say they can get us a better engine. They say they plan to make zone transitions more seamless and use phasing and other techniques to allow us to enjoy more content with less lag. They are proposing a system of archetypes and powers that will be much more flexible than City of Heroes was. We should be getting better character models and a costume creator that's based on the old game, only offering More.
Every single one of those things is an Improvement. It's something that we had before, only better. They're all things that I wish City of Heroes could have had. And they're things that I Want to play with.
Not one of those things suggests changing the underlying mechanics of the game.
If you, or anyone, have a suggestion for how some part of the game can be similar to how it was, but with some improvement/update/additional feature, please, write a post describing your idea. I'd really like to read that and consider how I might enjoy it.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Okay, rough idea of what I'd do...
A point system. Gain a level, gain so many points. Spend them on powers/stats.
Make it a combo of twitch/tab targeting.
Smashing Damage would be one of the most resisted types of damage as it often is in superhero comics.
Smashing melee attacks would be tab targeting as long as at least 50% of the damage was Smashing (maybe less).
Everyone would have a defense set. They can spend points to make it how they want within the framework of that defense set. They'd all resist Smashing damage pretty decently.
Only defense sets that are agile in concept would get true RNG style defense. This isn't to say the others couldn't pick up RNG defense. All sets could, but the Super Reflexes types would not only have twitch dodging to all attacks, Super Reflexes would have additional RNG Defense to AOE attacks.
So that INV or REGEN type could build RNG Defense to ST attacks...they get caught in an AOE they're hit. Super Reflexes would get a chance to evade it.
Points in the defense could be spent to build up other aspects of defense to get the layered effect/concept. SR could put points for regeneration, additional resists. Of course that SR won't like resist as much as that INV, but it allows for many concepts. In the same vain, INV/Regen/Fire Armor wouldn't get as high levels of defense as that SR user.
ST range attacks would be able to purchase lock on advantages. It'd eat into the damage, but the attack just became tab/target, and thusly relies on the targets RNG Defenses. AOE range wouldn't get this option for lock on, but then they need to move out of the way fast enough unless they're SR types (when I say SR types by the way, I also thought something akin to shrink being a defense set framework possibility).
No ACC would be needed, as lock on is only blocked by defenses, the rest you move out of the way.
Non smashing melee attacks (swords/fire swords/what have you) wouldn't have lock on type of abilities. Notice how they're often dodged in comics, because, well, non blunt force trauma hurts/maims more! But they'd have the advantage of having a non-highly popular resisted damage type (which went to smashing). Unsure of lock on advantage for these.
I'd keep the attack powers/defense clickies like CoH. Click and power recharges. People can put points into getting powers to recharge faster.
Basically, you'd still want to build for optimal ST attack chain, and those AOEs recharging faster.
Pick Range or Melee power Tier 1...select damage type and style of the animation. All Tier 1 Range attacks (for example here) would do the same damage, let's say 100-500 points of damage. With the way the defense sets are setup, it wouldn't be a matter of which attack is best, it'd be a matter of how resistant to your damage type is your target?
Both the ST Firearm (lethal) and ST Fireball (fire) tier 1 attacks will do the same damage, but some of those enemies will shrug off fire damage but fall before the lethal damage.
The lock on advantage for ranged attacks would seem like a good idea to many, but it's also giving up higher damage/reward for a more assured (though not 100%, remember, people can build for RNG Defense) chance of the attack landing, and if the target isn't built with much defense (if any) in mind, this could be quite the advantage.
That's all just a rough idea of what I would do that would combine both and of course numbers would have to be worked out.
It would maybe require a little thought in how to build your character, but that's what respecs/retcons are for, not to mention guides!
I'd also likely give all melee attacks a tiny cone, so it's not like it's this tiny straight line type of deal. Lunge attacks to move in close would be an option as well.
To thormaeb: First of all, calling the bully card, is such a cop out response, you never debunked anything I said, again you went to, this is my preference, there for, everyone should just accept it, this is how the game should be. All I asked for is, prove my points wrong, prove why you're right outside of, well it worked 10 years ago, so it must work now because I want it like that.
You're just being blatantly stubborn and purposely avoiding any and all points I make and not regard how I've addressed your arguments on the subject. It's like talking to a wall with you. If you make your opinion public, it's going to be subject to debate, you can't just call the bully card in lue actually forming a proper response to a thought out argument.
Stop wasting my time if you're just going to call bully and give the same answer and blatantly avoid how your argument is being challenged and answering in your own way that's not even relevant to anything thrown at you.
If you can't do that, then I'll just attest that the only thing you care about is having a COH clone and no real innovation, and that you're against change and progress. Prove me wrong.
Moving on to Comicsluvr: Decades? Try thousands of years bro. It's one of the oldest tools in history, it's just been refined for modern day. Which is what I'm trying to push for COT, to not use a 2000 year old hammer. You have to keep in mind, if they can't sell the game to a broader audience, the game will suffer the same fate as coh, but much much faster. What do you think people will want to buy more, a 2000 year old out of date hammer? Or a hammer that's made better with a modern design? Pretty sure people are going to want to buy the hammer that's with the times. It just seems like a massive waste of potential to not try to utilize todays game mechanics and tools. Oh and lets look at the foundation of your argument. You like the old way because you got frustrated with newer games, so everyone should just be happy with what you would rather just have. You know, you could always just relive the game on a pirated server, for free, where it's not inhibiting progress, everyone smiles.
oh, it's Fireheart again, here, lets beat that dead horse some more then, let me get, my modern hammer. *snicker*
Okay look, I already admitted, I shouldn't have used wow, it's a buzz word no one likes, but I already said 100 times, I NEVER SAID WOW WAS BETTER. Got that? Holy crap man, let it go, I said dozens of times I didn't even play wow that much.
Coh was showing it's age, so is WoW, that's the ONLY comparison, the only one. I never said cot should be wow. The proof is in the pudding though, WoW kept players loyal and attracted them more, COH, obviously DIDN'T, the only thing I'm interested in there is, where did COH go so wrong? Because lets face it, coh was a down hill slope of players leaving long before it went free to play, while WoW was going full steam ahead with massive expansions. I personally still liked COH better, but things we addressed above that went wrong, things like so many load times, lack of content, color pallette, being able to do things besides core game play, WOW players seem to think it did that better than cox.
I brought it up as more of a, hey, lets learn from city of heroes mistakes. Yet you people are badgering me for it just because I used WoW as a point of reference. Get over it already please, it's getting old.
It's pretty hard for people like you to think I'm coherent when you seem abundantly incapable of reading properly. I never said other games were better than coh. It was one of my all time favorite games, you're assuming a lot about me and accusing me of random nonsense man. You act like I'm just here to sabotage the game. You're completely ridiculous man. Yeah I'm getting edgy with some of you, but that's because you guys don't know how to form a proper argument. You have to address the key points of a persons argument, then give them the whys and the hows you don't agree with them. So far, you have failed to do that, you just cling to your preference argument. It's your preference, it's your game. Talk about a selfish mindset man. It's not all about you, you have to think long term what's good for the game and try to keep an open mind about how to innovate it, not blindly and stubbornly claim ANY ONE who suggests new ideas that they are just pumping "venom" into the possible structure of the game and that when they don't agree with you and actually look at your argument critically, that makes them a "bully".
Like I said before, your opinions are subject to debate, if you can't handle that and debate properly and all you have to say is, stop being a bully, you should just accept what I say as truth with me bothering to try to prove it through sound reasoning and logic and move on. Then you should really reconsider where you spout your stubborn, closed minded opinions.
I've challenged all of you to tell me why I'm wrong outside of, well we don't like change. Step up to the plate and prove me wrong, I'm waiting, provide me with a good argument, why is what I say "venom"? Why is change so bad? hm? That's all I'm asking of you guys, not one of you has even tried to do that. Tell me why my suggestions are not positive, you want to call me out for labeling, well here's another, if you call my ideas venomous and not positive without explaining why, that sir, makes you a massive hypocrite. Good sir, I do believe I have hiked your undies skyward with gusto.
To Brand X: Good point, I think that's part of what made WoW successful to, the animations were straight to the point and combat felt smooth. That was another complaint a lot of people I saw who tried coh and turned their nose to it, I hadn't thought of that before. That's a crucial thing to consider.
That's okay, I wasn't talking to you anyway.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Uh, you quoted me several times, so if this is your attempt at a joke, I'm afraid I must have missed the punch line.
I have to say, the idea of different animations for each attack is a great idea, but like Brand X said is that the faster the animation the more it was used for Dps, my idea is that as you increase your stats in things such as speed, agility, accuracy, strength and the like you start to unlock different animations, say if your a tank/berserk character, your character would possibly have high strength and defence/health, and low speed and agility. As you increase the stats in strength and defence you gain slow strong style fighting animations, if your a martial artist and rely on fast accurate attacks you would have a faster and precise animation to reflect how you develop your character.
Well, you were ignoring/dismissing me when I was talking to you.
Then I was talking to BrandX, so I wasn't talking to you. I'm sorry, you've just become irrelevant to me, since you can't be bothered to discuss the issue with me.
Be Well!
Fireheart
[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jMMIAo-8j8E/UXbGOd900MI/AAAAAAAAMvE/M90NQWWXSwo/s1600/hypocrites+everywhere.jpg[/img]
Master of Magic, Master of Orion, and Star Control are all very old (and outdated)games and still very popular. To us old-timers, anyway.
We seem to have a very different view on the term, popular.
Besides, those games, are old, you can buy them on GOG and play them to your hearts content. Same with coh, if not now, then soon I'm sure some one will eventually make a pirated server. You can even play ever quest the way it was in 1999, it's called project 1999, I played on it for awhile myself, I'm love nostalgia. Heck I was all over baldurs gate 1 and 2 releasing on steam with all the community mods, I play both with my brothers.
But there are tons of old games you can play and enjoy, I don't even see a problem with carrying over classic stuff, but why shun new ideas because of nostalgia? I don't get you people.... If you crave un altered classic experiences, there's nothing stopping you from going back to that, you don't need a new game to pretend your playing something old, just play old games for a more authentic experience.
._.
Tell me, why do you people think new is bad by default? Tell me why you're all so afraid of a game evolving on the spirit of the old? That's how everything new is made, it improves on the old and tries new things.
I never even said, hey, screw every single thing about the old system, I even suggested a hybrid system and ways for people to tailor their experience. But nope, no compromise, no reasonable counter argument, just the same stubborn and closed minded view point.
I must say, I'm severely disappointed so far in this community.... What a freakin' let down.
I'm okay with people disagreeing with me, but tell me why I'm wrong, I really don't care what your preferences are in regards to how it relates to my argument, because they don't, not even a little.
That is probably because for the young'uns they have instead tried Sins of a Solar Empire (which is more real time than the older games).
I never tried that game, any good?
Falcon here is my 2 cents by all means they are my personal opinions they don't have anything to do with majority.
Your so called advanced techonological features you counted in your inital post were exact reasons why I was not playing WoW or any other game but was sticking with CoH besides of community. You may think a twitching system works best becuase of technology but it is even more of an unfair system to players.
First it is a system that rewards constant reflexive actions in an extended time I by all means want to enjoy my game not stress out becuase my reflexes wer slower than others. Secondly it is only parctical if you have a really good connection and you are close to server. You may not aware but some of us are playing from europe and asia which probably will never have a server 'close' enough for us to handle the twitch system 8mind you good connection also costs more than an amr and leg in here)
Secondly you keep saying why not evolve. just becuase something new and shiny doesn't mean it is good or ideal. You are talking about giving everyone what they want yet all things you suggested are only rewarding for a handful of guys (ie ones with better reflexes, ones that has more time ot play around etc)
One of selling points of CoH for me that it didn't had stupid gears that changes my stats and how my character look and I didn't need to spend days or weeks to get them this was almost same for everyone I met in CoH and was talking leaisurely while doing one of incarnate trials or end game TF's or was just starting with new characters and doing hollows mission arcs. we never needed to stressfully rush to anything either we could take our time to type a few jokes in group chat while in the middle of combat and could also laugh off when a team wipe happen.
Again these are my personal opinions and what I saw when playing and loved about CoH. I don't say CoT should be a carbon copy of CoH but what made CoH comunnity great for me is their flexibility and not stressed attiude unlike in games like WoW if you put these kind of mechanics in game people will start to stress out and lose thier flexibility sooner or later and that is what being a WoW clone for me and how SWG became a WoW clone after NGE.
You know, for someone who doesn't want the community to get upset over your dismissal of a system lots of people loved, you sure seem touchy when your ideas aren't loved.
And lots of people loved COH. The thing you might be missing is that it was one of the most successful, popular MMOs its day. Take away WOW, and COH is a big hit and a major MMO. Nobody has managed to capture whatever magic led to WOW's market dominance; you're essentially asking a team of volunteers to attempt something giant companies around the world have been working at feverishly for a decade. No one else -- not even Blizzard -- has replicated that success. WOW could simply be a fluke.
On the subject of "real time combat," the biggest issue for a superhero game is that the player at the keyboard isn't super-powered. Even if I can dodge well enough to be a Super Reflexes Scrapper, maybe my beloved Aunt May can't. But the game has to let her play one if she wants. Superheroes are defined mechanically by their powers, not by connection speed or keyboard acrobatics.
Captain of Phoenix Rising
"Moving on to Comicsluvr: Decades? Try thousands of years bro. It's one of the oldest tools in history, it's just been refined for modern day. Which is what I'm trying to push for COT, to not use a 2000 year old hammer. You have to keep in mind, if they can't sell the game to a broader audience, the game will suffer the same fate as coh, but much much faster. What do you think people will want to buy more, a 2000 year old out of date hammer? Or a hammer that's made better with a modern design? Pretty sure people are going to want to buy the hammer that's with the times. It just seems like a massive waste of potential to not try to utilize todays game mechanics and tools. Oh and lets look at the foundation of your argument. You like the old way because you got frustrated with newer games, so everyone should just be happy with what you would rather just have. You know, you could always just relive the game on a pirated server, for free, where it's not inhibiting progress, everyone smiles."
Sorry, I was referring to the modern claw hammer (which I use) invented in the early 1800s, not the sledge (which I seldom do) invented by Romans. Point to you there.
I'm going to post a poll today: Twitch mechanics or not. You're assuming that players will want them because many modern games have them and many of those games are popular. If they were so popular, why wasn't there a hue and cry for them in the original CoX?
My argument is not that everyone should be happy with what they have because I want it that way. My argument is that they wanted it that way in the first place. You're speaking for a player base that doesn't even exist outside these forums. Now, if I post a poll and the overwhelming majority goes one way or the other, can we agree on THAT at least? If we get 50 replies and 30 or more lean one way can we concede that it's representative of our future player base and move on?
Oh, one other thing: You've been telling a lot of people that they should just go and play CoX on some pirated server someplace. Um...if it were possible to do so don't you think we would? On the other hand, I haven't seen ANYONE telling you to go back and play your twitch games. If you have a point to make, make it and let it stand on its own merits. There's no point in being mean except to be mean.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
It wasn't asked for because it was one of the things already known not to be possible and if I'm not mistaken (could be) there wasn't even another mmo around that had twitch combat until after CoH announced it's closure. Even if there was, before the announcement, that was likely 7 years into the games lifespan.
As for the combat being fair, I'd call it fair, it'd be one person's reflexes versus another person's reflexes, what's not fair about that? o.O That said, maybe you should go play TERA and see it really doesn't need that much in the way of reflexes. It's F2P now, so it's not like it would cost you anything.
As for CoT, whatever it does do, will likely alienate someone who isn't just looking for a superhero mmo that they consider better than the two current options.
I played TERA after it got to F2P and I can safely say that targetting is one of things I hate and not bothering with that game more than a couple of weeks time and it was only forcing myself to be fair to game but overall just targetting is enough for me to stay away from that game.
Seeing as how the enemies really weren't that difficult to keep target on, outside of some leaping enemies who'd leap right past you (wasn't bad when at range, could be a little grrrring when melee), I'm taking this to be from a PvP PoV?
Please try to understand, I was not calling you a bully and I was not being stubborn. Actually, I have only made one post before this one, so saying you have been "arguing with a brick wall"... well perhaps you have because you have said nothing to me and I have said nothing to you prior to the post you were referring to.
However, I was not calling you a bully, I was saying that I've had some experiences with internet bullies in the past, and the CoX environment was different in that they were few and far between and were actively discouraged. I was saying that our environment should not encourage bullies and an "I'm better than you" mentality.
And yes, I was stating my preferences, being a timid player I enjoy a low-stress environment. I don't think that making it a high-stress environment will improve the game, it will only chase away other timid players who play the game to relax rather than get all tensed up after a long day.
I guess the point here is that I was not really trying to argue you points, I was trying to bring a new perspective, from the players whose voices get silenced in games in which the default mentality is to call people names if they don't do what you want them to do. If I remember right, these forums are a place to voice our opinions, and my opinion is that people should not be bullied. (again, not referring to you). If I have said something wrong with this one simple statement, and you disagree with me, its time for YOU to prove ME wrong. All I have is my opinion, so if you DO want people to be bullied on the internet, lets hear your logical arguments in favor. If you do not have a problem with this statement, then it should not really be a problem for you that I've said it. I simply wanted to voice my opinion, and hopefully speak up for some of the other quiet, passive players who not only don't usually voice their opinions when someone could attack them for it, but who also may just prefer to ignore forums like these in general. However, I believe this is a key element of the game and changing it to attract a new audience may chase away the old audience.
If you don't believe me, ask an old-style D&D fan what happened with 4.0 and why many of them have since switched to pathfinder. People don't mind change, but a total paradigm shift changes the target audience and you might as well not try to claim it is intended to be for the same people or use a similar name.
SHORT VERSION: I was not calling falcon a bully, I simply believe CoX did a good job of limiting features that attract bullies, thus creating a supportive environment for players who just want to relax. As always, this is not meant to offend anyone and I'm sorry if my simple statements have crossed any lines.
Well I am just going to come out and say I did play City of Heroes/Villains for a time, but ended up quitting it to play WoW. Here is why:
1. The controls, they were perfect, barring lag, every push of a button felt instant and with a quick reaction time, you could do some amazing things in pvp or pve. I found the controls very sluggish in city of heroes.
2. Gear and progression: I felt like I obtained more in WoW then I did in City of Heroes, more to show off, more progression with my character, and my character felt more powerful with levels and talents. I didn't want to give it up.
3. Graphics. No I don't mean I quit due to any graphics being "better" or "worse", but WoW's art style and color scheme for the game just popped. It was vibrant with a lot of character. No offense, but a massive city scape gets old after a while, as is going indoors to do missions and seeing the same sewers or hallways.
What I would like CoT to possibly incorporate is a nice vibrant COMICBOOK-esque color scheme. Bright and vibrant without any roots in reality. A way to customize powers as you level to make YOUR powers into special snowflake powers, making them somewhat unique to your character. Lastly, I want tight controls with a faster combat. I want non-stop action in my combat, not waiting for cooldowns and energy all the time, its just not....heroic.
Edit - Finally got caught up with the thread. Honestly I see a lot of good discussion going on and I think this is a very relevant and healthy thread. I know I wasn't a huge fan of City of Heroes/Villains, so here is a counter question: what aspects of City of Heroes would you like to see return? I did enjoy playing a dominator, and I wouldn't mind seeing some of the cool "limit break" options for the villains/heroes make a return. Also, I did enjoy some of the toggled buffs/debuffs (always enjoy good buffs) which would simply slowly consume your energy. Lastly, as has been said earlier, the character creation was top-notch for its time.
One of the aspects of Paragon City that could have been done better, and clearly WAS done better after Praetoria, was to get away from the "communist grey concrete socialist dystopia" look that a lot of buildings had in City of Heroes from launch. You saw it in Praetoria most clearly, but also in the Atlas Park revamp with the new buildings and skyscrapers that weren't all a uniform concrete grey but included sandstone, steel and glass to a much greater extent than previously. Most of Paragon City was, let's be honest, pretty dreary to look at a lot of the time, although for some locations that was entirely appropriate (Kings' Row, The Hollows, Faultline, Boomtown, The Sewers, etc.). Praetoria with its white and gold color scheme, [b]CLEAN STREETS[/b](!!!) and varied color palette was a joy to behold by comparison, and felt like living in a utopia after all the grey concrete of Paragon City (emphasized even more by the existence of the War Walls).
Wow was also very good about being subtle with its atmospheric tints and shadings. A lot of the time it was almost too small to notice that when moving from one area into another the lighting and tinting of the very air itself should shift ever so slightly, creating different moods as you traveled from place to place. WoW also ran on a 24 hour day and night cycle that made the differences between day and night irrelevant (ie. you didn't have mobs that only spawned during the day or night, unlike City of Heroes). Later on they added weather to WoW so as to make it drizzle, rain (heavily in tropical zones), snow, sandstorm and so on. Made the world a whole lot more immersive an experience to play, even when the weather had absolutely no effect other than graphics.
And as has been mentioned already ... there was just always something to *DO* in WoW. You could work on your skills, rather than just gaining levels, you could Fish, you could Gather, you could work on your Reputation with a wide range of Factions. There was always something to do that could engage your interest, even if you were just waiting around. I picked up the habit of always pulling out my fishing rod and Fishing while waiting for boats to arrive at the docks, and continuing to Fish while waiting for the boats to set sail again after they'd arrived. It gave me something to do while waiting so that my time wasn't being completely wasted so that I remained engaged and playing the game. That was something that WoW did very successfully, in that there were plenty of activities to engage in other that just doing Quests or killing for XP and farming Loot or whatever. WoW always had stuff to do ... even before the introduction of the Daily Quests.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I'm definitely in agreement with Redlynne. Praetoria's look was awesome, and felt more like a thriving city where things happened.
Don't get me wrong - *parts* of a city can be that (to quote above) "communist grey concrete socialist dystopia" look - afterall, a city doesn't grow overnight by just one architect. A block here and there would have been built by an architect, who at the time used that style, but as time went on blocks would be torn down, buildings would be rebuilt, and so on. It's a lot for designers to think about and put into each "zone", but it's what really adds immersion and potential backstory. Think GhostBusters with spook central.
And again with the other things to do. I found that in CoX, my options for what to do came down to only a few:
1) Hunt for enhancements/Level
2) Work on my Super Base.
3) Costume Contests.
Don't get me wrong, I had tons of fun on the game. And let's be honest - fishing, harvesting wood, and other fantasy mmo "tertiary" activities don't exactly fit in a super hero MMO. So what kind of additional skills could a superhero game have that would give players something additional to work on? Any thoughts?
Taking a "blue sky" approach to the question, and disregarding questions like "do you know how much it would cost to do that??" ... let's think about some "modern day" counterpart activities to doing things like Fishing and Gathering (herbs, leather, ore, etc.) which could be incorporated into a cityscape.
First thing that comes to mind is ... Photography. Not just in terms of screenshots, but in terms of the profession of Photography. Getting shots of panoramic vistas, inspiring sights, the seedy underbelly of the city, the bright lights, the moving shadows ... on and on and on ... could potentially be done as sort of a counterpart to ... Fishing. The spots where you can get good shots could be "marked" kind of like how in WoW you can tell where there are schools of fish waiting to be caught using a fishing pole (and only visible to people with the Photography skill).
Another modern activity that could be done in a cityscape is ... Reporting. Here, instead of just snapping pictures, you're instead talking to Civilians to get their stories. Imagine if there was a system in place in City of Heroes were some characters were "reporters" (think Miners or Herbalists in WoW terms) who would go out and interact with the "man on the street" to get information, rather than opening up a newspaper or pulling out a police scanner. Could even be something as simple as talking to X number of Civilians whose names begin with the letter {fill in the blank} on the streets. Or go to Y location and answer the phone that's ringing there to get a tip off. Reporters would be given tips and clues that could then lead to information that feeds into making a discovery that culminates in a Mission.
Another modern activity could be ... Neighborhood Watch. This would be a kind of "patrol the area" sort of thing where you get to knock over the local undesirables (whether they be thugs or cops) to learn the scuttlebutt going around on the streets. Again, this sort of thing could lead to clues that add up to Missions. Think of this as being the modern day equivalent to Skinning and Leatherworking if it makes you feel better. ^_~
And not to put too fine a point on it, but there's no reason why these sorts of tasks would have to be undertaken as a part of a Hero ID. They could be done under a Secret ID just as well, allowing your hero to travel incognito through different parts of the city (where your Reputation may precede you!).
Gadgeteer/Engineer/Mad Engineer
Computer Hacker/Computer Cracker
Scientist/Mad Scientist
Business Executive/Executive Secretary
Taxi Driver(!)/Chauffeur
Psychic/Street Performer
Security Officer/[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWCq9KiY9Yo]Safecracker[/url]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjXVhA86Vr4]Speech Therapist[/url]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHDawxWU2rY]Shoe Salesman[/url]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp_uaVW2se8]Community College Student[/url]
(okay, so some of those suggestions are jokes ... but not all of them ...)
Things that would seem to be "less than heroic" on their face could potentially be used as springboards for all kinds of content, some of which results in Missions, some of which offers other rewards (cash and prizes?). Some types of Missions would require use of your Secret ID ... others might require use of your Hero ID. Some might be Instanced while others might involve chasing around town. As you advance your skill levels in these capacities, the opportunities and rewards that they provide become richer and more complex. The basic idea though is that no one person can "be everything" and so you need to "pick your Day Job Profession" with that in mind.
At its core, the idea is to give your character something to do besides get into fights all the time ... even if what you're doing is something that enables you to get into fights (ie. Missions).
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I didn't mind the zone changes, so much. Certainly wasn't a deal-breaker when soloing, but a bit annoying when teaming. I remember good-natured teasing of "slow-loaders". That said, I would expect that mechanic to be unnecessary, and shocked to see it arbitrarily imposed in CoT.
I must say, one of my most awestruck moments in MMO's, (and truthfully I've only dabbled in a few besides CoH,) was soaring over Gotham City in DCUO. The atmospheric quality was perfect. Seeing the smoke and tracer fire of distant battles with Brainiac...just fantastic.
WoW didn't impress me as much. There didn't seem to be the level of detail and variety in the landscape. ::shrug:: Maybe that's changed with more recent updates.
I did like in CoH how the different zones had different flavors, and I hope that will be maintained somehow with a more seamless world. Redlynne cites WoW's subtle chnages from zone to zone. Something like that would be terrific.
Absolutely give me more things to do between the big instanced missions and task forces. But I hope they are not as boring and repetitious as "Skill leveling." Like "fishing". Good heavens, I find fishing boring IRL! why would I want to sit at my computer and simulate it?! Something like WoW's "Daily Quests" might be welcome. (probably suggested elsewhere, but this thread kind of induces rambling (: ) Heck, I think it would be marvelous to get badges or rep for getting cats out of trees or helping little old ladies across the street. :)
I cannot say much for WoW(most people playing WoW I met were closed minded enough or spent all there time looking at it that I couldn't stand em), but I can say the few things that CO did right compared to CoX.
CO's controls were a little more fluid, allowing for more "run and gun" in it's gameplay, with some powers, a number still rooted you or slowed you, which was annoying. But beyond that, I felt CO's "freedom" was an illusion at the same time, due to many characters ending up playing the same with just different graphics due to a sore lack of second effects or anything such as buffs/debuffs/good crowd control in it.
I think being able to move and do things is a smart thing in games to include, including rpgs. I think in the year 2013 every game should be this way. CO also supports melee play far better, with "lunge" powers allowing the player to instantly close a gap, though I think the fact they could "cripple challenge"(remove block and was a permanable effect) and travel-canceling being mixed into snares/roots meant the lunges were to much of a swiss-army-knife crowd control made exclusively for pvp made them to good(especially cripple challenge making blocking 100% useless).
I realized something today(5/8/2014) that many MMORPG players, are not like us who enjoyed CoX. They enjoy repetitiveness and predictability, rather then unpredictability. We on the other hand enjoy unpredictability and variety.
It would seem that they tried to "Please all of the people, All of the time." But i guess doing so made it so they Sold It off also. :/
I could go along with most of this. There has been talk about trying to do a newspaper the newsies can be waving around. Characters can stop by and maybe pick up missions. How about the best pic of the day gets added to the newspaper? Reporting (asking questions) can be the same way. How about just crafting stuff? If you craft in your lab, in your secret ID it counts towards some reward. Exploration can be part of this too. If, for instance, you're the first person on the scene at some riot or random Mayhem mission, you get credit towards some 'first on the scene' badge or reward. How about if you're an Engineer you help repair buildings damaged by the recent Event or battle?
Lots of stuff to think about here.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
And the thing is that some of these can contribute towards crafting/gathering as well...
Because Fallen Enchantress: Legendary Heroes is nothing like MoM. Although, it was created to be a more up-to-date replacement for MoM. Because X-Com: Enemy Unknown plays nothing like X-Com: UFO Defense. The only similarity between the X-Coms are the names and types of the aliens. the story is totally different, the game-play is totally different. But, hey. The graphics are awesome with the new one. Most people still prefer to play the old one though.
Newer is not always better.
For CoT, I prefer the game-play to be very similar to CoH's. Simple and casual-player friendly. Things like not having war walls for easier zoning, is a "new" change that I can get behind. Changing the fundamental way the game functioned, not so much.
Newer is not always better. But you always learn more from it.
There are many new things that players would love incorporated in City of Titans.
I would argue that Everquest Next is a spiritual successor to Everquest.. but MANY of the game's mechanics, graphics, and other core systems are changing.. and for the better. I only say this so that people do not expect to walk into City of Titans and play City of Heroes/Villains. This prospect should excite you much more than it disappoints you.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
So, I guess this game is pretty much going to be city of heroes, but with better graphics, and any and all new features and game play styles will be SHUNNED by the community.
Why even bother with unreal 3 engine?
You're gonna take a game that failed, and give it a fresh coat of paint, and that's what you all want and any one that suggests otherwise is going to get ganged up on and told their wrong, not why they're wrong, just they can't be right unless they on that same page.
I've lost all faith in this game and the community.
In my opinion, the only thing that made WoW the 900lb gorilla in the MMO environment was good timing and the fact that it's fantasy-based. Things that made CoH better than WoW, for me:
1. CoH was a superhero game based in the modern day world, or something like it. WoW is fantasy. Apples to oranges right there.
2. CoH had costume configurability out the wazoo.
3. CoH had almost no noob hate from the veterans, and practically no trolling. In a way, CoH was like having a Mac instead of a PC, because nobody bothers to write viruses, trojans, malware etc for Mac. WoW was the PC that absorbed all of that negative crap so we in CoH didn't have to deal with it so much. Thanks WoW!
4. CoH had a true 3-D immersive environment from day 1. You got to FLY. Actually FLY. Not just hover a few pixels over the ground on a goofy flying animal, actually FLY.
5. CoH had sidekick/exemplaring.
6. CoH had a constant influx of new costume pieces to choose from. I bet if they had let the community at-large submit stuff like this, they could have saved themselves time by buying it from those people instead of developing it themselves. Not sure what the legal ramifications of that would be tho. That said people used to have whole websites devoted to skinning different frames in Freedom Force, which was pretty fun.
7. CoH had a constant influx of new powersets to play with, and not just different looking, different mechanics too.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Well a good way to balance faster animations would be with a damage penalty, you want that instant speed fireball? It's going to end up costing you in damage (or a longer cooldown). There are a ton of minor things to tweak with changes, any concerns I feel could easily be tweaked by adding penalties or bonuses to certain things.
As for having a real job that gives you money/missions/bonuses for your secret identity: I love it! Very immersive, fits the theme, and it would be pretty sweet. To go one step further, how about a base of operations? Not all heroes are superman or batman with big impressive fortresses or batcaves. What about heroes like spider-man who just chills in an apartment (Or lives with relatives)? That could be another option that would be pretty sweet. Player made and controlled housing. It's been a blast since Ultima Online and used in other games (with usually positive results). Could be pretty nifty to try out.
Lastly, one other thing i just thought of: If we have access to making a supervillain in this game, there is always one issue I have always had: villains never "win". Maybe in PVP servers we could have parts of the city that could be fought over to control between villains and heroes. Those who control these points could get access to special vendors or missions. Personally, I love some open world PVP, and spontaneous super battles about the city would be pretty sweet.
People are also forgetting that while COX wasn't a WoW clone there was a lot of stuff as far as innovation that wasn't up to that time in many if any MMOs. CoT probably shouldn't be a clone of anything but an evolution. WoW was an evolution of games that came before it and at first it was small as was blizzard. It became a giant later (COX was already out and had a few months head start).
Sure CoT could merely aim for bottom bare minimum, "it got made" wit ha few players running around and barely making enough to scrape by and keep the lights on. Many game makers do that and most of them are very forgettable and or didn't last 8+ years. Many didn't make it past 2. COX didn't aim to be be at the bottom. DID they get wide success, no, but they aimed for greatness and even wit hthe small population, it was still a great game although being in corporate control it bit them in the end.
Newer isn't always better but progress isn't bad either. Remember, even COX didn't exactly have a growing population. In fact from the start and it's peak in 05 it been slipping. At one point there was nearly 200,000 players, but even after free to play there was even less than 100,000. And tha tis usuing technology that was around in 2001-2004 time period. This is almost 10 years later. MMO market and features have changed within those ten years. Some of the stuff tha tCOX introduced are now standard fare in many MMOs that have came after that time period. And many games fail because they make the mistake of building a game that is already aged and old by the time it come out because they don't change anything. Corporate companies have excuse. The corporate people that made the decision were too conservative and want to stick to what they know. Indie, they have the freedom but most don't use it. They have the freedom to build any game use any innovation, change stuff but many try to act corporate but don't have the tool to beat corporate at their own game because people look at it like this sometimes "Here is a indie game with maybe 25000 folk and here is a game corporate offering about the same game with 1 million people. Both are teamed based." Many will go to the most populated game because the greater chance of teaming to get through the content in the age old "must team in MMO" thing.
CoT can be successor in spirit just as the new Phantom is spiritual successor of the past phantoms dating all the way back to the 30s. There are similarities but over all, there are also lot of changes that set it apart from the old. That is where lot of indie game makers fail to realize. They have the power to change but they skirt back to the old and offer nothing new. beyond the same old "we are not corporate backed." Which is fine and dandy but lot of people lok for a little more than warm and fuzzy and look more for an actual new game which seems that the indie game makers are content on letting the corporate as sluggish as they are, to offer new features first and play vulture with the old stuff when corporate moves on. Indie game makers are their own down fall. Time to break those chains. Remember COX there were new stuff. Now to be true successor, bring some new stuff to the table. Being merely a clone of COX is not successor. That is simply merely a clone of COX, an old game dating back to 2004. Make City of Titans game mean something in it's own right while being a successor. Yes, both can be obtained contrary to popular corporate belief that man inde game makers also believe while in a futile manner trying to prove they are different from corporate when in reality they are no different because they don't bring anything new to the game any more than corporate and always playing catch up and making clones.
I like and dislike the idea of having what im wearing (gear/enh/boosts/etc) displayed on my character.
From a visual standpoint it can be a good thing if you want it.
"Ohh look that guy has a full set of Armageddon slotted".
However with the number of Boosts we will have this makes it silly if we have a visual for all Boosts slotted.
There has been discussion about having 'Global Slots' that unlock as your character levels up. We could have it that these limited GS can display the Boost they are slotted with.
Example (all ideas here are conjecture and to be used for example purposes only):
At level 30 I will have 3 Global Slots (GS).
I decide to Slot 1x Acc, 1x Def and 1x End.
My Character now has a visual effect for all 3 GS applied to my character (and can be changed in the Costume Creator with a range of options).
Also assuming we use Boost Sets, Unique Boosts or other Specials that can be slotted they would have their own Unique look (maybe with 'origin' themes so my Robot doesnt get a floating book of spells).
Any visual represnetation based on the type of 'used equipment' should always have the option of turning off.
I decide on a Run Speed GS Boost and it looks like a pair of Santa Elf slippers and i HATE the look. DONT MAKE me display them and ruin my costume.
Also dont forget that most games that use wearable gear also have extremely limited character designs. WoW I can chose my hair colour/style, skin colour, racial features, eyes, etc. But I cant select what costume I wear at day 1 that makes me look Super.
Look at a level 1 WoW character. How are they visually different to the NPC's around them? They are not.
Now in CoT if I want to make a non-descript character that looks like Joe Nobody then I can. My choice.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
You obviously didn't play CoH enough. Energy problems, nonstop attacking, that's what I built every character to do. It's no different than other MMOs, you build to become better. In CoH, I did just that, never worried about energy and never sat around waiting for an attack to recharge.
Was this how it was in the beginning? No, not really. But in the end, with IOs, yes it was. No need for Brawl or Origin Attack (removed from tray) just non-stop attacking!
I almost always play melee and I play with highest possible mouse speed for personal preferences. Most of the time I don't even bother with keyboard and just use things with my mouse from on screen icons. Targetting with cursor type of play prevents me to do this and it gets hectic if I accidenlty hit my hand no somehwere and my character starts spinning around. I can manage control in FPS games good enough but I am not playing MMO's to get same feeling from an FPS game.
@Falcon: Did you even checked kickstarter page? Or try to see what devs are doing with game? It is hardly CoH with better graphics like you pointed out there are many news things dev team wants to try on and implement into game just becuase your two or three suggestions get mostly negative feedback (and there were people who were trying to find a middle road like redlyn who suggested a hybrid format) don't go out and assume everything was being shunned away. You were taking an agressive front since the beginning and it is not a constructive way to make other side listen to you.
To be fair I DID say I didn't like it as much as WoW at the time. I played it for about a month, had a radiation corruptor up to level 13-15ish around there. I just didn't like how clunky the combat felt compared to WoW's. In WoW I would run around on my lowbie warlock and dot up 3-4 things while lobbing shadowbolts at stragglers. I'd do this without being rooted into the ground for animations (the dots were instant cast!), only time I'd have to stop moving was for channeling shadowbolts. It was fast and it felt tight and crisp.
Honestly, if the controls felt better I would have probably dumped WoW for CoV, but playing the class I wanted to play, it was dull. A lot of the time I'd just get whacked by enemies while i waited for my 1 of 3 nukes to come off cd.
As for me not getting geared out with enhancements and whatnot: I got the game because a friend told me it'd be good. I gave it a shot, made a few guys, played the one I liked most, and promptly dropped the game. It didn't give me any satisfaction, and I just missed the feeling that my character's legs weren't glued to the ground when my paladin swung his sword. A lot of people from other MMOs like to dump on WoW, but I can honestly say, for me, the BIG reason why I played that game over a multitude of other MMOs (and I have played about 70% of all mmos that get released) is that the controls are tight, combat is fast and feels very satisfying.
I've been wanting to play a good comic book mmo for a long time and each one that comes out just misses the mark for me. (DCUO had the fast combat and pvp i love, but lacked in content and char creation).
yeah WoW do have some fluid nice control feel.
COX at the time I started only played COX, WoW, StarCraft, and a tad of Everquest. Then later went and played other games, and yeah COX felt slow, too much recharge stuff too much waiting around for things to recharge and the rooting. As I played more games, the slower the combat in COX felt. It had it's ups and downs, and I'm no twitch game expert.
I did wish the combat pace was a bit faster paced and more involved but I figure it wasa limitation of 2004 and pre technology. Now after playing many games, I can see it can be sped up a bit or refined to be more fluid. The combat system is one of the things despite all the faults, keeps me playing CO. No annoying RNG, no whiffing, no waiting for long time for powers to recharge, ya get in there and fight. COX after that felt like I was playing slot machines in slow motion. "Oh another miss, well might as well go smoke while my powers re..., oh wait I'm held, well might as well go bathroom break and check some emails while I'm at it." Come back "hey I'm free. Oh darn aother miss." repeat process.
I've read this whole thread. And while I understand everyone's position, I'll toss in my 2 cents.
My wife is disabled with a closed head injury. The both of us played CoH shortly after it came out and were very active in our SG. The both of us have so many great memories of the game and we still laugh to this day. Upon hearing about CoT we were both very excited. Some other members of our old SG called us up and putting together the old SG is already in motion. After CoH went down we tried "newer" games. With her disability she cannot play them....too twitchy. The pace of CoH was perfect for her.
I'm not sitting here and saying CoT should be what my wife can play and forget the rest of ya. I'm just sayin what she CAN play. We both are looking forward to CoT and what it will bring. If they choose the "twitch" route, so be it. Then we will not play.
I just HOPE we can, that is all.
For what it's worth I'm open to some innovation when it comes to CoT. Almost by default a game developed in the 2013-15 timeframe is going to have graphical improvements over a game developed in the 2002-04 timeframe. But by the same token if CoT doesn't remain at least nominally similar to CoH then what's the point? If CoT evolves too far past CoH then it might as well be marketed as a 100% brand new game. So much for a "spiritual successor" at that point.
Yes we can have fun talking about incorporating the successful bits and pieces of different games and try to mash them all together into some kind of Frankenstein-ed MMO. But the more you deviate from the foundation of the game that on its own lasted 8.5 years the more chance you end up with a completely "unknown quantity" that could easy fail six months after launch because it tried to expand out in too many new directions at once.
So no I don't just want a "fresh coat of paint" on a 10+ year old game. But I also firmly believe that every "suggestion" that's been offered here and in similar threads needs to be thoroughly investigated and vetted before it's blindly thrown into the developmental mix of CoT just because it worked in game X, Y or Z. Success in other games is no guarantee that all these elements would work well together in CoT.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Well I can see how ya feel like that. Just about take the major things that have been suggested have been shot down. Combat, shot down in favor of keeping it the same. Enhancement slotting, instanced mission setup, different suggestions, shot down in favor of keeping it same.
market, shot down in favor of keeping the same by lot of the community.
pvp, shot down in favor in keeping the same. Which then is understandable to ask, then what changes will be made besides a fresh coat of paint in the way of innate graphics and a few tweaks to the power sets? Will there be any significant changes that probably wouldn't have happened if COX was alive with new engine or coding?
there is a difference, maybe a thin line though between successor and imitation.
This. CoT is not intended to be a clone of CoH, but it will have to feel a lot like CoH (especially in combat, imo) if the classic "reasonable observer" is going to consider it a spiritual successor to CoH.
It is not at all surprising that there is no one game that everyone loves more than any other. Different strokes for different folks... the strokes for CoT are expected to feel good to the folks who actually liked CoH. That may mean that they won't feel good to folks who didn't like CoH. If so, that isn;t the end of the world... that's why we have so many different types of games out there.
Global: @Second Chances
SG: Fusion Force
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"
CoH didn't fail...it's plug was pulled just as it was battling back from a long illness cause by mismanagement and bad decisions.
Did you ever play CoH?
Did you read any of the 50+ updates from the Kickstarter? The Dev's plans for CoT?
You claim that what we want is an old car with new paint. What we really want is a CLASSIC car with a new motor, cruise control and power windows.
Through it all it sounds like you're trying to sell us a street racer. Yes, it's fast. Yes, it's sexy...but it's not what we WANT.
If you can't agree with that, with the idea that we all got together to bring back an improved version of what we had as opposed to a whole new thing, then we'll have to agree to disagree and move on.
The door is over there ----------->
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Well now, there are part of the community that do yearn for something new in the spirit of COX of various degrees and some that simply want the exact same game as COX.
The door should not be shown to anyone either way. They are community members. Not all the community thinks one way, CoT should be exactly like COX or any other way.
Which I thought was kind of the point of this forum and even having discussion because if everything is set that it will be like COX in every way, then there really was no point in even opening discussion about the game as then the game and how it will be is already set. Like COX.
Being shunned, that last line is one that gives the feeling that those that do make suggestions about changes, ARE being shunned. Yeah, you are not the only one to say that "Don't like it, then leave" type stuff. But really it really do give the impression that suggestions to change is not wanted and if any one suggest any thing to change, whould leave even though majority of them are actually part of the community and some longer than people saying "There's the door".
And yes, some actual COX community members don't want the same old with fresh new paint belive it or not. And in the beginning CoT was advertised on the COHtian forum as being the one that is going to be newer and less like COX compared to H&V which was stated to be designed as supposedly the one that stay within COX as close as possible without gaining a lawsuit. So after stating that, whe it was called Project phoenix, it is only natural for people to expect some changes and suggest changes without being told 'There is the door" everytime they suggest something different.
They are part of the community like anyone else, even if they have different want as the want or what "we" want is not the same through out the entire community contrary to popular belief and commonly stated. "I like it this way, we are here to do it this way. Don't likeit ,there's the door." That gives truth to the statement when people feel shunned because in a way, telling people to leave when they suggest new things, as it was advertise that Project phoenix was going to do in the beginning, then it's blatant shunning and seem to be merely a way to drive people off so those that do want it to be exactly the same can control be listened too as THE community while the rest are again kicked to the curb except this time it's not by NCSOFT but by people who don't want to hear new suggestions or suggestions they don't like.
Now a couple of dev/CoT worker labeled people stated they are keeping in mind "ALL" members of the community. Will they live up those words? Hopefully, but thus far, the community it self is not and seem quick to tell people "Don't like what I like then leave." I always thought in general though, the point was to bring the community back together not create more division of "Like what I like or leave the game." in fact, if they were part of the community then they have every right to stay and make suggestions just as much as those that want things to stay the same because they are too whether people like it or not, are part of the COX community of which this game is supposedly being made for. Or is it being made for only a slect section fo the community? If so, I think it's about time to stoop wasting people time and say so, so that people that have new suggestions don't even bother and those that want stuff to stay the same wont be bothered by that part of the community. But seeing this forum and titles and they saying even on kickstarter the yare open to suggestions, that gives the impression that new suggestions are actually welcomed and if anyone should leave should be people that are quick to tell others there is the door. Since they know where the door is, why don't they follow their own advise from time to time and leave like they want others to leave?
We all are the cox community and yeah we may not see eye to eye all the time, and may be more of a super manson style dysfunctional group, we still must stick together over all and not keep keep trying t to kick out members over petty stuff. We are already small as is. And already have a giant battle to face, lets not internally make it even harder than it need to be. some say it's the friendliest community. So is Truth and Consequences, NM but not many people are rushing to move out there. This is a chance to make it mean something. Make it mean something of use. Instead of self destructing over differing views because one person want change, and one don't and since the person want a little change, they should leave mindset. Or does it mean that the community cannot function without the NCSOFT overlords without every other suggestion with someone telling someone else to leave or there is the door because they suggest something that haven't been suggested by the popular folk or the inanate popular view or feature that wasn't in COX. NCSOFT are probably laughing their heads off. "Look at them, they will self destruct in a few years because people keep telling others that don't agree with them to leave." remember, what made the community great? Even the people that want something new, want it the same, like the market don't like the market, pvper pveers, farmers, non farmers, teamers solo ALL was a part of that with no one part more important or being the majority of what made it a great community. That is what a spiritual successor is about. Mechanics different or same or doing things different is not measure of successor. Its; the feel. COX clone itself would not be a spiritual successor if the community gets so toxic where even different point of view are not welcomed and not considered part of the COX community. It would be COX yes in game play, but not COX in spirit at all if it gets to this portion of the community will be listened to and are welcomed and everyone that don't like what they like can kick rocks. Which is exactly, kick rocks if you don't agree with me, is being said when one is told to leave or there is the door when they suggest something different. Thus, yes, fulfilling the view of being shunned for suggesting something different. And many community members that are not here, number one reason nI came across is because they see no reason to be here if any suggestion they will make is going to be shunned because certain popular folk have a different view.
One thing to keep in mind though, remember a private server will be up soon probably around the time CoT is near or at completion. So why would someone play a simple imitation with everything like COX, instead of playing the actual thing again for those that want COX as is. And then those that want something different may play for a bit a year or so before those other 8.5 years of playing the game catches up and feel like they been playing for 9 ye-10 years the same game and eventually go look for new fun. Not good for longevity. There will have to be something that sets CoT apart beyond simple polish and mirrors while keeping in the spiritual successor.
Spiritual successor doesn't mean it all have to be the same or small changes that only a certain group think they should be the same or threshold of some and everyone else should leave out the door. Imagine if COX haven't changed a single bit from day one? How many would have stayed 8+ years? Suppose COX instead of going where not many games went before with the gear not tied to image, and less grind and more instance mission, and instead went with what was popular and gear tied to appearance and stuff how many would have stayed 8+ years. Part of COX spirit was doing things differently instead of only what was strictly popular and how other games did it simply because that is how other games did it. Part of COX spirit is bringing something new to the table. Evolution, the expansions, 23 or so of them bringing something different. Villains to the mixed, then the alignments in between. That was hardly done ever before and even to this day probably cant be found in many other games. Like a son and father. The son is spiritual successor of the father but the son still have his own mind, different way of speaking, different way of viewing the world, and still can stick to some traditions. The world in the son's time is different from when it was in the father's time. Same with the MMO world. It's not 2004 anymore.
Including the person you are replying to, it seems, so I hope you are not intending to imply he is some representative of people who just want "the same old with fresh new paint".
I agree that people shouldn't be shown the door, though. The tone of FalconStriker's replies has gotten kind of antagonizing, but that doesn't mean folks need to respond in kind.
Global: @Second Chances
SG: Fusion Force
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"
The single greatest thing in CoX for me was the intricacy of interaction between buffs/debuffs/CCs/Defense/etc. You could create heroes that could do things I've never seen in any other MMO.
That said, damage is one area that I could see room for improvement moving forward into CoT. Blasters and the like could simulate a twitch like game simply by killing everything in sight in just a few moves. They did it in PvE and PvP alike. It was the single biggest issue I had with playing PvP (until they fixed it and then most everyone else didn't approve).
Speaking of twitch mechanics, one of the things that I thought was nice was that with combat designed as it was, it allowed for players with disabilities to play the game. I know that's not what everyone thinks about, but I knew of one who played with one arm.
I've read through most of these posts and frankly it seems like most of the opinions in here have already been hashed out by the devs.
I do think Redlyne had some good thoughts on combat with the hybrid twitch method. I do wonder how it would affect things like herding. It was always a staple of CoX to be able to herd much larger numbers into "kill zones" and was one of the key features that made that game feel superheroic.
Also, my vote for most interesting visual in a MMO goes to Gotham skyline in DCUO as well. I personally like to see a bit more grit than can be afforded with color schemes like WoW.
And would someone please send me the link to the CoX pirate server? I'm jonesin real bad. :)
In all seriousness FalconStriker, I'd like to make a suggestion:
Although I may or may not agree with all of your suggestions in the original post, you have brought up some good ideas and this is a discussion I believe is worth actually having.
Just as we are suggesting for the game, I will suggest here for the forum. Let's see what went wrong and try again with an improved strategy.
I think this discussion could go better if you took all of your initial suggestions and reposted them in a fresh forum. If people have reacted rather loudly to the use of the term "like WoW," in this new forum, try to get the point you are making without using the words that shall not be spoken. If people don't seem to be understanding the point you are making, try rephrasing it.
I mean this advice to be purely constructive of course, I am not trying to criticize anyone in any way. I just believe this is a good topic of discussion, and certain misunderstandings between people here have left a bitter taste in everyone's mouths. I don't necessarily think its anyone's fault, just that people seem to be on a different page sometimes and nobody likes to feel criticized or that their opinion is not being heard or understood, or worse, silenced.
Again, I only bring it up because this topic is valuable and I believe if we could just look at it fresh and rationally without emotionally-charged words, the community could benefit from this discussion. Certainly don't have to take my advice here, I just would like to see how this topic of discussion could go differently when everyone is on the same page :-)
Oh. The correct answer to the hammer questions is "give me the 2000 yr old one, pls". It's an antique and worth a lot more than the latest hammer at Ace hardware. :)
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