Elder Scrolls Online broke with one of the major conventions of UI design in MMORPGs. They got rid of the mini-map.
City of Heroes had a mini-map.
World of Warcraft has a mini-map, which it uses to mark Resource Nodes (among other things).
Tabula Rasa had a mini-map.
Star Trek Online has a mini-map.
TERA has a mini-map (although it's more of a map transparency you can put somewhere on your screen).
Suffice it to say, a lot of games offer the functionality of a mini-map.
But Elder Scrolls Online doesn't. Why?
My understanding of the issue is that the developers of ESO made the conscious and deliberate decision to eliminate the mini-map so as to orient the game towards immersion in the environment. As a result, many of the features usually associated with use of a mini-map (such as the location of resource nodes for harvesting) got shuffled into other parts of the UI ... usually for the better. This meant that instead of "flying the gauges" to locate resources in the environment, instead you had UI help (animated glowing smoke) for finding things once you got within a certain distance of them so as to make things more obvious. This did some rather remarkable things when it came to resource gathering, such that without these "helper" skills to locate hidden features, a number of resources became very hard to find. They were still THERE, of course, but without the assist to find them they often just blended into the terrain and environment and became difficult to find unless you "drove over them" (and sometimes even that wasn't enough for you to notice stuff).
Let me tell you, it was absolutely mind boggling to actually put all of the Keen Eye skills onto my characters in ESO and discover just HOW MUCH STUFF I'd been missing and overlooking, simply because I didn't know it was even there! Of course, as my familiarization and understanding and knowledge of what things looked like (and where they could be found) improved, I got a lot better at spotting stuff hidden in the terrain clutter, but the Keen Eye system was incredibly elegant in addition to being a really excellent design choice for "forcibly" immersing the Player into playing the game.
It was only after playing ESO for a while that I came to realize just how much of a CRUTCH the mini-map was and started appreciating what a bold decision it was for ESO to just eliminate the "cheating God's Eye View" of the game that the mini-map offered. Among other things, the mini-map usually lets you see around corners, know when something is sneaking up on you from behind, and a whole host of other things that the Player really ought to be paying attention to by looking around IN THE GAME rather than letting the mini-map "cheat" and tell you all of that information for free.
Don't get me wrong, ESO still has a Map for zones ... but you have to "open" the Map, and when you do, it covers your screen, so while you're looking at the map, you're not paying attention to your surroundings (not always a wise choice). The actual full screen Map will show you things like Team members, so that you can navigate to get together and find each other, but it's a stylized 2D drawing intended as an aid and a memory mnemonic, rather than as a detailed analysis and holographic reproduction. Needless to say in some 3D environments, this can get rather confusing (and indeed, that's sometimes the whole POINT!), thereby enabling "Lieutenant with a Map" syndrome to happen with Players who really just aren't paying attention.
All of which makes me think ... maybe it would be a good idea if City of Titans ALSO simply does away with the mini-map. After seeing how ESO handled their removal of the mini-map, I'm thinking that doing the same in City of Titans would be a net plus, rather than a net negative.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
As with practically everything else I'd hope any kind of mini-map in CoT is an optional feature that can be turned on or off as desired.
Turns out I've been using an add-on to have a mini-map while I play ESO, but surprisingly I don't use it to have the full "cheating God's Eye View" you describe. I mostly just use it to give me a vague idea of where near-by geographical features are in relation to where I am so I keep myself walking in the right directions. I don't use it to show me where any resources are or as an "enemy radar" to show me when critters are sneaking up on me or the like. To be perfectly honest my mini-map in ESO is so relatively generic and "featureless" that I could probably get away with not using it at all but I justify it as a means to not have to filp back-n-forth to the full-page map every 20-30 seconds as I'm moving long distances across the map (like in Cyrodiil). Far from being a "crutch" there are probably times where I don't technically even look at it for minutes at a time. That seems to be a reasonable compromise for me.
For what it's worth I wouldn't mind if CoT had a built-in mini-map that was very "minimal" like the way I use it in ESO.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
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CoH had a minimap, yeah, but it was hidden in a tab on the nav bar and not a permanent part of the UI. I can see the pros and cons of having/not having a permanent one, but personally, in COH, I rarely used the map - or at least I did not have it open constantly. Typically, the only time I would use it is when I really needed it - like I forgot where a certain contact/vendor is, or if I get lost in a mission map - but most of the time I had the map tab closed.
So, I guess my position is it would be handy to have a map of some kind available for use, but I don't think it's necessary to have it as a permanent part of the UI like it is in CO/STO/NWO. Even if it's just a CoH-like tab on a compass and nav bar (with the ability to enlarge it to see more detail).
Yup. We plan on the cityof way of making it optional, and we have...other plans for how to use the mini-map as well so...kind of necessary for the functions we want to use it for.
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- Combat Mechanic -
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How much stuff will CoT even have that would be hidden like the resources you're talking about in ESO? I can't imagine a superhero game where I have go foraging for gold, gems, berries, etc, so what would we be using that minimap as a crutch for? The Exploration badges? If those work like CoX, I would hope they don't show up on the minimap at all anyway. People in CoX had to use GPS commands in the chat line to find stuff, that made it a skill game to some extent.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I could see making some of the better minimap functions work as superpowers though. I wouldn;t expect the default minimap to have live badguy locations on it, or glowwies, but I could see a power that reveals that stuff somehow. Also, I could see making the indoor maps of different buildings a thing you have to unlock somehow.
So like, for general missions in warehouses and offices, you have to unlock those maps by doing enough favors for the city planning board or the architecture firms that they let you have the map prints of the buildings. then for more secretive stuff like the inside of the Crey lab you get nothing, or maybe something if you;'re a villain who has done some work to get in good with Crey, etc.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
optional, nice. I am also intrigued on how you plan to use it in other ways.
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I use the minimap a lot. It's very helpful in some missions
of course the usefulness of any map depends on the amount of detain it shows
a lot of maps in DDO are useless because they show overlapping levels all together in the same colors so you can't tell if something is close to you above you or below you. I hate that.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I actually run a mod in ESO so I can have a mini map. I have no sense of direction so a minimap or GPS is essential for me... :)
We all have it in us to be a hero to someone,
Super powers are optional.....
Part of the Phoenix Rising Initiative.....
Proud to be a hero. Prouder still to be a member of [url=http://www.watchfire-online.info]Watchfire[/url]
Curious. When I was playing ESO (for 6 months) I just familiarized myself with the terrain, and if I got lost (happened more than once) I'd just refer to the Map as many times as it took to get to where I needed to go. Oddly enough, this helped me keep my "head IN the game" if that makes any sense. I started remembering the land as being 3D instead of 2D like it appeared on the maps.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
That's nice for you Red.
We're all proud of you for being able to get along without the map.
But I need it.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Actually, in point of fact, I got along WITH the MAP but without the mini-map. I just had to adapt my thinking, memory and awareness of my surroundings in the game. It wasn't "hard" it was just ... different. And I realized from that experience just how much of a crutch a mini-map really was.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Red we both know I was talking about the damn minimap.
It's what the thread is about
it doesn't help anyone for you to deliberately misinterpret what people say
communication requires a little effort on both ends
And no matter how much you toot your own horn about how well you can get around without it,
the fact remains that real human beings still need it.
get over yourself
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Red we both know I was talking about the damn minimap.
It's what the thread is about
it doesn't help anyone for you to deliberately misinterpret what people say
communication requires a little effort on both ends
And no matter how much you toot your own horn about how well you can get around without it,
the fact remains that real human beings still need it.
get over yourself
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I have two opinions about this post.
1. I agree that I personally would like to have a minimap available.
2. How the point was made was rude.
I reserve the right to have an opinion. You reserve the right to not agree.
I don't think we need worry about that. Per another post, once he heard that a Dev could not give a definitive Yes or No on nun-chucks, he decided he was no longer interested in waiting around to see if the Devs would eventually implement them.
-Wolf sends
the optional minimap (as mentioned by Tannim) is a good thing as there are folks out there that can become disorientated easily, especially when placed in an artificial environment, such as an MMO. given this, everyone should be happy. if you want to use it you can...if you don't want it, you can turn it off. seems like a win-win to me.
at this point, I am more interested in the "other uses" Tannim mentioned.
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
Also the CoH map allowed you to see the different 'areas' of that zone in terms of bad guy difficulty. Obviously if CoT wont have that then this is irrelevant.
The next bit is based on some assumptions so take it with a grain of salt.
UI "Augments"
Basically you can find Augments that can be slotted into the UI to enhance certain features.
Examples include:
- show enemies on mini-map [1-3] = this shows enemies within X meters based on the rating of the Aug
- show resources on mini-map [1-3] = this shows resources within X meters based on the rating of the Aug
- Target Tracking. You flag a target and if it runs/flys/jumps/tunnels/etc away. A trail displays for X secs and Y length based on the rating of the Aug
etc
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
Today we have access to what amounts to a minimap through our smartphones and tablets. It would be extremely odd not to have access to such a thing in the game. I'll assume that there will be a key bind to show or hide the minimap, so it's all good.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
I too am in favour of the optional minimap mentioned by Tannim, as the UI navigation function of City of Heroes was remarkably easy to get used to. After a while of playing the game, each area would be a familiar sight, as if the City was more or less another home for me.
Other than potential waypoints for folks like a vendor, stuff that is meant to be found, there wasn't a good deal of things that the mini map would spoil. Since navigating to missions was done with the Nav Bar and a marker on your screen, you didn't have a birds eye view of what was on hand, and since some missions were started on elevated locations, it wouldn't be immediately helpful either.
As Radiac mentioned, there isn't really much to be done in regards to resource gathering in Superhero games. Champions had it, which was actually kind of bizarre. It was required for a mechanic of the game, of course, but I never thought of it as suitable to the theme. Who'd leave such a powerful, arcane or technological wonder on the street like that, and what compels you to think "Hm... I could make something out of this..."?
What I would like, however, is potential for heroes and villains to effectively bug the city. Maybe as a side mission or a reward for exploration, your character can effectively set up cameras and microphones in certain spots. What could this grant the player?
- updated map functionality, revealing things previously unseen
- command functions to tell the player the population count of a specific map area
- alerts to map based events like giant monsters earlier than standard event notifications, if there are any
- ability to search for leads or points of interest and gain missions
It might not be entirely feasible, but a part of me always felt that Surveillance and other techniques employed by more paranoid/intrusive/obsessive characters like Batman were missed out on, and exploring the map to set up a system like this might provide some players with more incentive to take in their surroundings.
I do a DnD Podcast, which can be listened to here.
Additionally, I write up my sessions of a Teen Heroes game here.
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You'd be [i]amazed[/i] by what incompetent NPCs can accomplish ...
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Well, true, the inventory skills of MAGI were always lacklustre, but I still found it weird that, say, the Eye of Agamoto was left in the middle of the road, and nary a civilian or roving villain picked it up until you came along. It was like a moment of genre savviness that you would stand there and wonder if the NPC population of the city were aware of all the dangerous nonsense the occurred around them on a regular basis.
"Gee, I wish I was like you. I wish I had powers to fight crime!"
"Uh, Jimmy, was it? You passed, like, three munitions dumps and a set of power armour to come over here and tell me that. Seriously, it is [i]in your grasp[/i] as we speak."
"If only..."
I do a DnD Podcast, which can be listened to here.
Additionally, I write up my sessions of a Teen Heroes game here.
It's because NPCs don't have minimaps, of course!
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Lol. That must be it!
Spurn all ye kindle.
To be fair, in CO you can't pick it up (or even see it on your mini-map) unless you have the skill. ^_^
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
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