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Let's Argue: Redside

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notears
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Let's Argue: Redside

For the villain side of things

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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Greyhawk
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I really enjoyed the Rogue

I really enjoyed the Rogue Isles.

Best of all: Masterminds

I didn't mind sharing Brutes and Dominators with the heroside, but Masterminds and Stalkers?????????????

Never should have had to give those up.

I opposed consolidating the auction house until after the fact. It turned out the advocates of consolidation had the right of it.

My favorite Rogue Island was Nerva Archipelago. I went back to it time and time again. Primeva, Agincourt, and so on, it was definitely the most diverse zone.

I have felt the Rogue Isles was organized far better than Paragon City. Too much effort in the design of Paragon City went into Hazard Zones right between two zones a player had to travel between over and over again. Most annoying. The Rogue Isles was one smooth transition from island to island until you maxed out of everything and were only left with PvP as an endgame. That annoyed me to no end. The introduction of Ouroboros, The Midnighter Club, and Cimerora allowed me to bring out Dusty Enalios and put her back into action. It was wonderful!

I really miss my Beast Mastery/Natural Affinity Mastermind. She was still in her low 30s when the servers shut down for the last time. That combination was shaping up to be the most entertaining game character archetype ever created.

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Batman and Nightwing are

Batman and Nightwing are total stalkers, why wouldn't heroes have a Stalker AT?

One might even beable to argue Spider-Man had stalker tendencies, though, one could say scrapper with stealth maybe?

That of course is all going with the idea, that stalker's hide ability wasn't really invisiblity in the since of an invisibility (invisible man) power.

notears
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Alright so, when writing for

Alright so, when writing for villains, I think the things that are at stake in those stories should be more political nature. Sort of like a mobster movie but with supervillains like how Gotham does it. The heroes story's have problems like "Can I solve this mystery in time" or "I have to stop this guy or the city is doomed!!" the villains stories have problems more like "So... can I trust this guy with my zombie army?" or "I want that death laser... but... how do I get it?" A typical redside story should have black mail and backstabbing all through out it, not knowing who you should trust, and eventually through sheer brute force or through cunning carving out your own little niche in the underworld.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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Huckleberry
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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

Alright so, when writing for villains, I think the things that are at stake in those stories should be more political nature. Sort of like a mobster movie but with supervillains like how Gotham does it. The heroes story's have problems like "Can I solve this mystery in time" or "I have to stop this guy or the city is doomed!!" the villains stories have problems more like "So... can I trust this guy with my zombie army?" or "I want that death laser... but... how do I get it?" A typical redside story should have black mail and backstabbing all through out it, not knowing who you should trust, and eventually through sheer brute force or through cunning carving out your own little niche in the underworld.

So true.

Also, villains always have the initiative. Heroes are always reacting to what the villains are trying to do.

[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.

Radiac
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I think the mixing of

I think the mixing of different alignments in the game overall makes content, events, missions, etc harder to write. I'm not a dev, but I gotta believe that if you can assume everyone is a hero, you can crank out content faster. Making everthing, or a lot of it, stuff where you get to choose what you want to do at the end, or in the middle, makes things harder. Then on top of that, making outdoor areas that are not free for all open world PvP all the time, but still have different alignments in them is harder too.

For example, GW2 is a game where all the players are on the same side (because they won't let you play as a dragon...). So the outdoor areas all have lots of cooperative events that fire off all the time and people can just do them or join others, with no formal team formation, just groups of people doing stuff, together, for a brief moment. In a game where some are heroes and some not, I find it harder to write that sort of stuff. Why are we both trying to defeat the giant monster? And you you're a villain, why am I not fighting you?

Edit: I almost never played redside on CoX. I was just never that into it.

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notears
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Well a lot of people played

Well a lot of people played redside, me included, and if you have missions like yellowside when going rogue came out it wouldn't really be all that hard to write. Plus, this expansion of the TIP system they want to use will really fill it out. They don't have to make completely and utterly customizable... heck new villains when their introduced tend to be working under other villains, or have to work as a mercenary. We can just give people a choice of how they want to do it. Do they want to work as an enforcer for [insert villain faction here] or do they want to work as a mercenary and get introduced to an information broker type contact that calls you up and goes "hey I have a job for you".

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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Radiac
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Maybe, but one thing I'd like

Maybe, but one thing I'd like to see this game add in that CoX never really had is events spawning in outdoor areas a lot. Not just the big, splashy alien invasions and zombie apokalypses, but like smaller stuff that happens like once every hour, or two, etc. GW2 is built on that stuff, and people populate the outdoor areas for that reason. It would be nice to see some of that in CoT.

That said, GW2 doesn't really have indoor missions.

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notears
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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Maybe, but one thing I'd like to see this game add in that CoX never really had is events spawning in outdoor areas a lot. Not just the big, splashy alien invasions and zombie apokalypses, but like smaller stuff that happens like once every hour, or two, etc. GW2 is built on that stuff, and people populate the outdoor areas for that reason. It would be nice to see some of that in CoT.
That said, GW2 doesn't really have indoor missions.

Yeah, and GW2 isn't really a good thing to base a superhero game off of either. GW2 is like an eastern stylized take on a European fantasy, and while I do get that this isn't going to be exactly like CoX, basing a lot of stuff off of a mmo that has a completely different genre altogether? Not that good of an idea.. I mean we could use some stuff here and there sure but a redside is a very important part of being a CoX inspired game, it's important for that feeling. So if we're going to take so much from GW2 that half the game that's being made is getting cut? That is way too far...

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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Nyxz
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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Maybe, but one thing I'd like to see this game add in that CoX never really had is events spawning in outdoor areas a lot. Not just the big, splashy alien invasions and zombie apokalypses, but like smaller stuff that happens like once every hour, or two, etc. GW2 is built on that stuff, and people populate the outdoor areas for that reason. It would be nice to see some of that in CoT.
That said, GW2 doesn't really have indoor missions.

Makes me think of Scrapyarder on Sharkshead. He was my all-time favorite GM. Him and his army of little scrapyarders was a joy to fight. Hope we have similar opportunities in CoT.

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I never really got into

I never really got into redside, cause the general atmosphere was too much of a downer to me. (Pre-Going Rogue I moved to RWZ as soon as I hit 35 and never looked back, afterwards I just moved to or rolled up on Gold/Blue instead.)

That said I did like the general use of zones. Better organized (except Grandville, ugh I hated that place), each with a distinctive feel, no barren empty zones (Boomtown, pre-revamp Faultline and Dark Astoria, etc).

The main thing I truly didn't like about it was that your character was only ever really a cog in the Arachnos machine. If I'm going to play a villain, I don't want to be beholden to some NPC faction. I want to be my own man.

notears
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OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:

I never really got into redside, cause the general atmosphere was too much of a downer to me. (Pre-Going Rogue I moved to RWZ as soon as I hit 35 and never looked back, afterwards I just moved to or rolled up on Gold/Blue instead.)
That said I did like the general use of zones. Better organized (except Grandville, ugh I hated that place), each with a distinctive feel, no barren empty zones (Boomtown, pre-revamp Faultline and Dark Astoria, etc).
The main thing I truly didn't like about it was that your character was only ever really a cog in the Arachnos machine. If I'm going to play a villain, I don't want to be beholden to some NPC faction. I want to be my own man.

Yeah that was a big problem with the story in CoX in general. On either side you where never really a hero or a villain, you where something that was a rank higher than sidekick, or henchman, but nothing more. Yeah you where considered powerful at times, but you never felt like the main character of your own story, just the side character in an NPC's story. Heck even when you got to the more epic levels, all you could really hope for is being a 3rd hand for one of the big 4... not even a second hand for them because they already had their own lieutenants, and well? Arachnos was a very political unstable villain organization and it was rife with stories about supervillain politics!! Heck they could have even gone as far as saying that to get your epic power pool, you had to replace your "mentor" rather than do a quest for them and you could've done this cool mission where you screw over a lieutenant of arachnos and then lead his faction!!!

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Why are we both trying to defeat the giant monster? And you you're a villain, why am I not fighting you?

Well excuse me, I live here too. And I for one like to live in an actual city instead of a Kaiju's All-you-can-eat. Besides, you want to fight me... now? While Barney's ugly brother is stomping all over the place?
Allrighty Captain Overconfidence, let's see what you gOH MY GOD, it's about to eat a bus full of children!!1
*blasts the distracted hero right into the monster's path*
OK everyone, it's eating now... NUKE IT!

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_HUdf89hI8]Send out your signal, call in your hero
I kidnapped his lady, now his power's are zero.
[/url]

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Nos482 wrote:
Nos482 wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Why are we both trying to defeat the giant monster? And you you're a villain, why am I not fighting you?

Well excuse me, I live here too. And I for one like to live in an actual city instead of a Kaiju's All-you-can-eat. Besides, you want to fight me... now? While Barney's ugly brother is stomping all over the place?
Allrighty Captain Overconfidence, let's see what you gOH MY GOD, it's about to eat a bus full of children!!1
*blasts the distracted hero right into the monster's path*
OK everyone, it's eating now... NUKE IT!

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Radiac
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So the solution is that there

So the solution is that there will only be outdoor cooperative events when they're the kind of huge existential threat that everyone can get behind defeating? No smaller, "robot runs amok in a busy traffic intersection", no "quell the gang rumble", no "convoy the armored car from here to there"? I would have liked some of that, is all. You don't have to make it the whole game, like GW2, but SOME would have been good. I think.

I suppose if the CoX model is the one we're starting from, the only outdoor events would be the huge kind. *sigh*

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

So the solution is that there will only be outdoor cooperative events when they're the kind of huge existential threat that everyone can get behind defeating? No smaller, "robot runs amok in a busy traffic intersection", no "quell the gang rumble", no "convoy the armored car from here to there"? I would have liked some of that, is all. You don't have to make it the whole game, like GW2, but SOME would have been good. I think.
I suppose if the CoX model is the one we're starting from, the only outdoor events would be the huge kind. *sigh*

I think you're forgetting the three alignment axis system again. If a hero wants to do something villainous, he can. And if a villain wants to do something heroic, she can. Cooperate or not, that will be your choice.

[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.

notears
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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

So the solution is that there will only be outdoor cooperative events when they're the kind of huge existential threat that everyone can get behind defeating? No smaller, "robot runs amok in a busy traffic intersection", no "quell the gang rumble", no "convoy the armored car from here to there"? I would have liked some of that, is all. You don't have to make it the whole game, like GW2, but SOME would have been good. I think.
I suppose if the CoX model is the one we're starting from, the only outdoor events would be the huge kind. *sigh*

Well I don't really see why we can't have smaller events like that, I think it would be fun.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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Nos482
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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

So the solution is that there will only be outdoor cooperative events when they're the kind of huge existential threat that everyone can get behind defeating?

Why?

Quote:

No smaller, "robot runs amok in a busy traffic intersection", no "quell the gang rumble", no "convoy the armored car from here to there"? I would have liked some of that, is all.

"Dibs!", "Hey look, the heroes are busy... let's rob a bank."(Not everything needs to be for everyone), "An armored car you say? Protected by heroes? Nah, there's no chance it's transporting something valuable... (or) Skullcharred is paying big money to make sure the cops don't seize his latest Chaser delivery."

Huckleberry wrote:

I think you're forgetting the three alignment axis system again. If a hero wants to do something villainous, he can. And if a villain wants to do something heroic, she can. Cooperate or not, that will be your choice.

Also this.

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_HUdf89hI8]Send out your signal, call in your hero
I kidnapped his lady, now his power's are zero.
[/url]

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I would very much like to see

I would very much like to see these smaller events pop up a lot, not to the extent of GW2, but you know... something to do on the way to a mission. Maybe meet a few people, make a couple friends. Also maybe we can get them merged with the old havoc missions? Start some trouble and see how big the fire gets while other people take advantage of the frenzy to get their own missions done.

Rile up a gang war as step one of your bank robbery or something. That'd be pretty sweet.

You hear the dead, their bones shake and rattle for you to join them. So you will.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

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For delivery!
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I LOVED redside! The zone

I LOVED redside! The zone design had the benefit of hindsight and it was normally easy to get to a mission.

Scrapyarders could be liberally doused with Seeds of Confusion and Carrion Creepers until the zone frame rates took a massive hit. Good times!

Always felt that the Halloween event missed the chance to have Jack and Eochai fighting on the sides of the Golden Giza.

Also another reason a villain might want to join an impromptu Kaiju-cleanse would be networking. How else do you meet these folks and actually SEE what they can do? Relying on bar stool bragging is a shortcut to big trouble after all.

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I wonder... could we end up

I wonder... could we end up joining or become affiliated with certain NPC factions? Back in CoH I always tried to score as many brownie points with the spiders as possible. But I could never actually become affiliated with them... Just some merc. I mean, being a merc is a great way for a villain to get cash but... there's just something about the story of getting that assumedly one-off job that might lead to an actual work relationship with that guy, being employed so often that he eventually decides to offer you a truly steady job as a member of his gang, mob, or world-conquering bunch of arachnophiles.

Heck, I even did pretty much every "I might be able to get some brownie points with the spiders" Havoc missions. Just, some sort of Faction Relationship tracker would be nice if we cannot become truly affiliated or recruited.

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Deathrattle wrote:
Deathrattle wrote:

I wonder... could we end up joining or become affiliated with certain NPC factions? Back in CoH I always tried to score as many brownie points with the spiders as possible. But I could never actually become affiliated with them... Just some merc. I mean, being a merc is a great way for a villain to get cash but... there's just something about the story of getting that assumedly one-off job that might lead to an actual work relationship with that guy, being employed so often that he eventually decides to offer you a truly steady job as a member of his gang, mob, or world-conquering bunch of arachnophiles.
Heck, I even did pretty much every "I might be able to get some brownie points with the spiders" Havoc missions. Just, some sort of Faction Relationship tracker would be nice if we cannot become truly affiliated or recruited.

From what I have heard faction rep will have "tiers" to it with increasing access to that factions vendors and perks, which includes their faction specific costume items and such. Not sure if there is a point were the game makes you fell more like an employee rather than a merc/contractor but there seems to be opportunity to at least fully RP it.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I think the mixing of different alignments in the game overall makes content, events, missions, etc harder to write. I'm not a dev, but I gotta believe that if you can assume everyone is a hero, you can crank out content faster. Making everthing, or a lot of it, stuff where you get to choose what you want to do at the end, or in the middle, makes things harder.

Actually, how easy or hard it is to crank out content really depends on the writer in question.

We have some people that are great for heroic stuff, but just can't get the knack of writing for villains, or they're stuff just isn't as fun. Other people are great for villain content, and are simply okay at hero content. A couple people are great for both sides.

Some people are great at the super simple stuff, while others are great at the über complex stuff.

We have writers of all the described types, but we could always use a few more...

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