Good, good stuff.

Two questions spring to mind:

1. Will masteries be subject to respecs? (Related question, if characters can have multiple builds can are masteries specific to each build?)
2. Do the ally / team bonuses also help the character or are those strictly bonuses strictly for other PCs?

Darth Fez wrote:

Good, good stuff.
Two questions spring to mind:
1. Will masteries be subject to respecs? (Related question, if characters can have multiple builds can are masteries specific to each build?)
2. Do the ally / team bonuses also help the character or are those strictly bonuses strictly for other PCs?

1: yes/yes
2: no. (hence why the yes on #1)

Also, I'm digging this. One more element to harness and build your character upon.

Outstanding! This is the kind of update that makes me very happy, yet entirely impatient for CoT's release.

Also enjoying seeing the beginnings of a path to recreate my favourite stalker -- while completely appreciating your more multifaceted approach to making enemies unsuspecting. I'm gonna have so many alts in this game...

Doctor Tyche wrote:

Darth Fez wrote:
2. Do the ally / team bonuses also help the character or are those strictly bonuses strictly for other PCs?

2: no. (hence why the yes on #1)

I assume this is why a couple of the Guardian Masteries specifically say "you and your team" to indicate these are an exception?

Cinnder wrote:

Outstanding! This is the kind of update that makes me very happy, yet entirely impatient for CoT's release.
Also enjoying seeing the beginnings of a path to recreate my favourite stalker -- while completely appreciating your more multifaceted approach to making enemies unsuspecting. I'm gonna have so many alts in this game...
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:
2. Do the ally / team bonuses also help the character or are those strictly bonuses strictly for other PCs?

2: no. (hence why the yes on #1)
I assume this is why a couple of the Guardian Masteries specifically say "you and your team" to indicate these are an exception?

Correct. We crunched the numbers hard before that decision.

Nice update! Although I had to consult the [url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/updated-classification-and-specification-chart]cheat table[/url] to translate into my dialect. Got to learn those new terms...

I very much like the direction the team is taking on powers (on everything, really). While not freeform, there's going to be a lot of power customization available.

Hmm.. having them swap with build is intriguing.. Wildstar is doing this as well and I don't think I agree with it.. It seems to somehow cheapen character decisions for me. Regardless.. I really like what you're showing here. I know Kontrol will look forward to using one of the commander masteries.

Terrific info! Excited!

I like this.

From the use of the Classifications, I take it that these Masteries are independent of Specification, so that when Goldenrod respecs from Sentinel to Vindicator, she'll have the same choices available.

Customisation ++++++++
Ohhhh I can feel my min/max gene fluctuating already.
Options and options and more options and THATS what I loved about CoH.
None of this 'My Tank is the same as Your Tank and at end game we all have the same gear so even look the same' BS.

Do I want more Aggro, -res on hits, more Survivability, ....?
!!CHOICES!!

This is some good info. Man - character creation juices flowing already! Can't wait for the game (or even the next update)!

notears wrote:

Will we have masteries that are like the striker and sniper masteries only with AoE powers instead of single target? How about an inspiration type mastery for the ranger and a mastery for the enforcer that debuffs my target rather buff myself?

Striker will work for both area effect and single target ranged attacks, snipes utilizing the furthest range will provide the most benefit. All of the Enforcer Masteries are about making the Enforcer better at their role, or assisting their team by performing their role well.

Ok so here is what I'm thinking so far: (a) you guys put a lot of thought and effort into this. (b) you know what you are doing and are looking for feedback and (c) well done and thank you. Can't wait!

Wrong thread for this request, but here's a quick answer: what we know to date is that we will (eventually) be able to change our specification (secondary power set) but not our classification (primary power set).

Doctor Tyche wrote:

Foradain wrote:
I like this.
From the use of the Classifications, I take it that these Masteries are independent of Specification, so that when Goldenrod respecs from Sentinel to Vindicator, she'll have the same choices available.

Precisely the idea. Small shifts, differing approaches, dynamic customization.

YUSSS......... ((rainbowvomitmeme))

I'm losing the ability to wait patiently for release or at minimum a tabletop ruleset to start playing around with specs and ideas! so awesome nice work!

Aye, what Lothic said.

To add onto to Lothic's comments, which I agree with, I think that even for the non-badge hunter the "complete and total" respec being discussed seems like giving away the store, to me. For instance, let's assume the game will give people some set number of character slots, with the monthly subscribers either getting more or getting store credit every month that they could use to buy more, should they choose to do so. A person doesn't need so many character slots if they can just respec their tanker into a blaster any time they want. It could be argued that people will only truly NEED one character slot in that case, which causes people not to buy additional slots. And there you are, trying to sell something to people but giving them no real compelling reason to want to buy it.

My only complaint is the freedom to change masteries and specifications freely with respecs. I'm feeling like it's kinda ruining the alt-ism that a lot of people loved about CoX. I wish to keep specifications off of the respec options. A hero can't just simply change how their powers work.

AlienMafia wrote:

My only complaint is the freedom to change masteries and specifications freely with respecs. I'm feeling like it's kinda ruining the alt-ism that a lot of people loved about CoX. I wish to keep specifications off of the respec options. A hero can't just simply change how their powers work.

So, when the Vindicator comes out, I'd have to delete and remake Goldenrod? I'd really rather not have to do that, but if Specification-level respecs aren't allowed, my only other choice would be to not start her until then. However long that winds up being.

Foradain wrote:

AlienMafia wrote:
My only complaint is the freedom to change masteries and specifications freely with respecs. I'm feeling like it's kinda ruining the alt-ism that a lot of people loved about CoX. I wish to keep specifications off of the respec options. A hero can't just simply change how their powers work.

So, when the Vindicator comes out, I'd have to delete and remake Goldenrod? I'd really rather not have to do that, but if Specification-level respecs aren't allowed, my only other choice would be to not start her until then. However long that winds up being.

Just think of cox terms and when new powerset came out. It's the very reason why, guessing, the majority of the population on CoX had a lot of toons. Alt-ism. I have concept that might not work because of lack of a certain set/costume or what not then i'll have to wait too but allowing people to switch freely, to me, is killing off one of the main reason people stuck with the game for so long.

Diablo 2 had multiple ways to build a character and you had to make multiple characters per class in order to play all playstyles of that class. Paladin had 4-5 different styles and no 2 of them could be built with 1 character. Diablo 3 came out and all you ever needed was one character of each class. This has destroyed the longevity of the game. 5 classes 5 character, level it, gear it, badge collect on 1 of them and now your done. 1 year tops for fast farmers/a lot of playing. 1 year!

CoX was 8 years and people still played it to the end. I believe it's mostly because of the multitude of options to build characters without easy respec to something else. How many people had 5 or more of any 1 archetype? A LOT. Respecs with too much freedom is bad imo.

Darth Fez wrote:

... we will (eventually) be able to change our specification (secondary power set) but not our classification (primary power set).

Ummm... That sounds a bit similar to real life medical fields: http://www.careerexplorer.net/medical-health-care

But I dont want to be a RN. :( Well, not unless I get to use a bone-saw like in SpidarMan 2. :D
Ohh, wait. That didnt end too well for them. NM. :P

Radiac wrote:

To add onto to Lothic's comments, which I agree with, I think that even for the non-badge hunter the "complete and total" respec being discussed seems like giving away the store, to me. For instance, let's assume the game will give people some set number of character slots, with the monthly subscribers either getting more or getting store credit every month that they could use to buy more, should they choose to do so. A person doesn't need so many character slots if they can just respec their tanker into a blaster any time they want. It could be argued that people will only truly NEED one character slot in that case, which causes people not to buy additional slots. And there you are, trying to sell something to people but giving them no real compelling reason to want to buy it.

I agree completely.
I think it's worth noting that the type of 100% respecing they had in SWG was at a time when you only had one toon per server... two if you unlocked a Jedi by hologrinding which was done by respecing and mastering each and every class in the game.
CO also allows 100% respecing and also freeform power builds. I found it really discouraged alting having so much freedom of choice. I could make any toon concept play the way I am most comfortable by picking the same types of abilities from different sets.
The relatively rigid rules in CoX made you alter your play style if you wanted to try something radically different which, for me, made a lot of the content more replayable.

Darth Fez wrote:

... it appears that masteries are more focused toward classifications than specifications.

ok. ;)

Corlagon wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Thallo wrote:
Please make it so you can go all the way down to 0 in a "super respec" type of thing and allow you to switch from tank to scrapper but keep everything else about your character. Like on star wars galaxies originally you could start off going for one-handed get to master fencer then switch to TKA master or master doctor or master bounty hunter or master riflemen. But all the time it was still the same name and badges on the character but each time you lost all your xp and had to "re level up". It would be cool if they could take a hint from the SWG system. What weapon/role you play you get that type of xp and level that class.

The idea of being able to do a "full" super-respec to change a character's total class/archetype always seemed a bit weird/overpowered to me. Let's say a given game has something like "Damage Healed" badges and "Damage Taken" badges. Now obviously if you play a "healer" class character it'd probably be pretty easy to earn the heal badges. Likewise if you play a "tank" type character it'd probably be pretty easy to earn the Damage Taken badges. What would prevent someone from just respecing through all the classes to easily rack up all the badges that are easiest to get for each class? That's almost exploiting the game as far as I'm concerned.
I actually like the idea of it being relatively hard for a Tank to get heal badges or a squishy healer to get the damage taken badges. It shows the player actually had to go "above-and-beyond" the normal gameplay in order to get those atypical badges.

Such stuff discourages me from Badging altogether.

So having to work hard to get hard badges "discourages" you from badging? That's your problem, not mine.

Or perhaps you were coming at this situation from the more valid concern that a potential new alt might not be able to get a specific anniversary or other "one-time" badge that your original alt got perhaps? All CoT would have to do to solve that problem would be to make all such badges be "account-wide" from Day One. This was something I mentioned dozens of times back on the old CoH forums but of course since CoH wasn't smart enough to organize its badges like that from the beginning it was sort of a lost cause there. CoT has the potential to learn from past mistakes and avoid this issue completely.

Corlagon wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Besides it just doesn't make logical roleplay sense for Bubba the Fighter with 2000 badges to be able to suddenly turn around and become Bubba the Magic User with those same 2000 badges.

Why wouldn't it make sense for a character to get powers more than once? A Natural could get captured by a mad scientist and be given actual superpowers. A character using special equipment could lose it and decide to continue with something else. A character could get killed and return as an undead.
I already subjected one of my characters to such a reincarnation in COH. Getting all missions again was not exactly atmospheric.

There's a big difference between a generic fictional character being completely "rebooted" into an entirely different form and having a MMO game character being able to be switched to any class at any time with relatively little penalty. You don't have to worry about little things like overall game balance when you're just making up a random story.

I might actually be willing to accept your "it's part of my character concept to change myself from one class to another" concept if perhaps the game limited these so-called super-respecs to only once per character. This would allow for your examples to be viable from a roleplay point of view while at the same time preventing this feature from becoming some kind of exploit a player could pull off every 5 minutes.

Corlagon wrote:

Lothic wrote:
What would be the point of alting if your "one" character could become any class they wanted?

The ability to return to a previous character without having to start over at level 1.

I'm going to assume when you said "start over at level 1" you meant without having to think of a new character name or re-earn badges. As described the super-respec would in fact require the character to be reset to level 1.

As someone who had fun earning 1390+ badges on TWO different characters in CoH I'm uniquely qualified to tell you that a game should NEVER make it easy to recycle badge achievement. If you want to "re-roll" and still have all the badges you used to have you should have to go out and re-earn them just like I did.

A "character" in a game like CoT is not just a avatar-shaped box where you keep all the achievements you earned as a player. A character in a game like CoT is a fictional individual who is defined by being a Blaster, Controller, etc. who has earned their OWN badges based on what they've done as a Blaster, Controller, etc. I'm sorry but once again the idea of having a virtual-blob that can be any class you want it to be at anytime is a fundamentally anti-RPG idea no matter how many other MMOs out there allow for it.

This discussion is academically moot anyway if what Darth Fez said about CoT not allowing for primary powerset respecs is true. I as said it'll be a better compromise solution to the one where any character could be morphed into absolutely anything at anytime.

dawnofcrow wrote:

Gangrel wrote:
Its worth noting that in Final Fantasy 14, a character can learn ALL the classes and crafting professions if they so desire.
However, they are only allowed so many "off class" abilities in their build, and some classes have different gear requirements, which can also take time to acquire over time as well.

I agree completely Gangrel

It's also worth noting that what "classes" represent in a game like Final Fantasy 14 is likely fairly different than what they are going to represent in a game like CoT.

Put in basic terms how many times in comic books do you see a single character embody ALL the aspects of being a Blaster, Controller, Mastermind, Tank, Scrapper, Stalker, Defender and so on? It strictly doesn't make sense in the venue of a superhero game like CoT to allow for a single character to become a master of all aspects of the game's character development.

With that in mind it takes very little effort to realize why being able to effectively be a "master of all classes via super-respec" doesn't make a lot of sense for CoT either. *shrugs*

Most games find it necessary to put crowd control and debuff abilities on cooldowns. If this is also the case in City of Titans then I think it makes alot of sense to offer Controllers the ability to lessen the cooldowns between casts as a mastery.

That being said we don't know what the other character attributes are. If there's a secondary system in which players can reduce cooldown time then perhaps a mastery is not the best place to encourage Commanders to use them.

Also.. extremely intrigued as to what "Supremecy" entails.. sounds like the GO TO mastery for the commanders teaming with other commanders (alot like what Champions Online's dreaded "telepathy pass" was going to do before its #EpicFail.. and that would just make me SO happy if Titans got it right where Cryptic got it so wrong. I was so personally invested in getting that right and it was truly the bat that broke the camels toe)

summer-heat wrote:

My interpretation of Supremacy was to be akin to domination.

It served as the inspiration in designing the Mastery.

Corlagon wrote:

To clear up some apparent misunderstandings …
Lothic wrote:
As someone who had fun earning 1390+ badges on TWO different characters in CoH I'm uniquely qualified to tell you that a game should NEVER make it easy to recycle badge achievement. If you want to "re-roll" and still have all the badges you used to have you should have to go out and re-earn them just like I did.

It's not primarily about the Badges, it's about the general feeling that I'm still playing the same fictional character.
Lothic wrote:
I'm sorry but once again the idea of having a virtual-blob that can be any class you want it to be at anytime is a fundamentally anti-RPG idea no matter how many other MMOs out there allow for it.

As the proposal calls for the character to lose all their experience, it would only be "at any time" if people could quickly power-level back to their previous level.
Lothic wrote:
This discussion is academically moot anyway if what Darth Fez said about CoT not allowing for primary powerset respecs is true.

Reincarnations had already been proposed back at the Titan Network forum; most people (including staff members) liked the idea IIRC.

We have not discussed a full character respec or reincarnation in a long time. It could be revisited, but in general the direction of reconstructing your character has gone no where near "change everything".

Personally, I think they shouldn't even let you respec out of your secondary powerset (or specification, if that means the same thing) in the regular basic respec, but then have a cash shop item that allows this for the infrequent times when you decide you hate your toon after getting it to a high level or whatever. I would think people with subs can just use accumulated credit for it. This way the subscribers have the freedom to do it every so often when they feel they really made big mistake, and the non-sub people have a very good reason to either buy a "better respec" for money, start paying a sub, delete the toon and make a new one, or just try to live with the lousy secondary set they picked.

That's how I'd handle it.

HellsBouncer wrote:

Thoroughly in keeping with the original game's star draw: the ability to customize a character. Masteries look like a great tool for fine-tuning a concept even more.

Good point. To me this is the very sort of thing I pictured as being "in the spirit" of CoX; it improves upon the old without fundamentally changing the nature of the game. Well done, MWM!

Not dumb at all -- excellent questions you want to be sure the devs take into account during development rather than afterwards.

Doctor Tyche wrote:

Darth Fez wrote:
Cross-posting this here from here, since it makes more sense in this thread even if the topic came up in the other.
DaBeetus wrote:
Will Predation still provide a benefit to AoE attacks or is it more about how long you go without switching targets?

To refine this question, I would eventually like to know if cone or arc attacks count towards Predation bonuses and how quickly does the bonus decay (e.g. if I change targets to another enemy and then switch back, briefly target another player, or work an AoE attack into my rotation). Also, will Predation and similar masteries work through a 'target of target' or 'assist target' system (always assuming these will be available)?
Presumably Predation applies to only one enemy at a time, so that it will not be possible to quickly switch between two targets and build up Predation on both.
In particular, I want this information to be available in-game 'cause, damn it, I'm dumb enough to have these kinds of questions!

TBD, we're still balancing things on that front.

I can provide some info on the intent of Predation. Does the term scrapper-lock ring a bell? Well, that was part of the inspiration for this Mastery, your character is so tuned into their particular target of choice they become better at fighting them. The bonuses are intended to build the longer you are engaged in active combat with your selected target. Note the engaged part, this isn't just when you are attacking your selected target, but when it is attacking you as well. Predation should work with target-through mechanics, just don't get annoyed when your team mate keeps switching targets on you, and since the target may not be directly engaged with you, bonuses may not climb as quickly..

This part, switching targets; its intended to wipe bonuses. Area effect (radial / cone) should still provide bonuses so long as they affect your selected target. Decay rate for when you disengage combat with your selected target, but its still selected is something we have to work out. And of course, all of this is subject to change.

Quote barf:

Doctor Tyche wrote:

Darth Fez wrote:
Good, good stuff.
Two questions spring to mind:
1. Will masteries be subject to respecs? (Related question, if characters can have multiple builds can are masteries specific to each build?)
2. Do the ally / team bonuses also help the character or are those strictly bonuses strictly for other PCs?

1: yes/yes
2: no. (hence why the yes on #1)

Corlagon wrote:

To clear up some apparent misunderstandings …

Your continued support of this "super-respec" idea shows that the "misunderstandings" continue on your part.

Corlagon wrote:

Lothic wrote:
As someone who had fun earning 1390+ badges on TWO different characters in CoH I'm uniquely qualified to tell you that a game should NEVER make it easy to recycle badge achievement. If you want to "re-roll" and still have all the badges you used to have you should have to go out and re-earn them just like I did.

It's not primarily about the Badges, it's about the general feeling that I'm still playing the same fictional character.

When you're talking about wanting to be able to respec essentially "everything" that makes a character what he/she is from a game class point of view it's very hard to believe that you're actually maintaining any kind of "general feeling" that you're playing the same character. If I were to start out with a level 50 scrapper and turn him into a level 1 tank after finishing one of these so-called super-respecs I wouldn't go so far as to "pretend" or rationalize to myself that I've still got the same character I started with. It'd be like turning Batman into Superman and trying to claim that the "new" Batman is still the same character.

A recycled character name with a bunch of badges which, I might add, probably wouldn't technically be possible on any normal level 1 character to begin with is frankly not enough to make me think the level 50 scrapper in my example is the SAME "character" as the newly respec'd tank.

Corlagon wrote:

Lothic wrote:
I'm sorry but once again the idea of having a virtual-blob that can be any class you want it to be at anytime is a fundamentally anti-RPG idea no matter how many other MMOs out there allow for it.

As the proposal calls for the character to lose all their experience, it would only be "at any time" if people could quickly power-level back to their previous level.

It was common knowledge that characters in CoH could be power leveled from 1 to 50 in a matter of 24-48 hours. I'm not necessarily saying that was a bad/evil thing - just making the point that without proper restraint a player could effectively have a given level 50 character super-respec'd into a completely different kind of level 50 character every several days. That'd simply be a stupid thing for most any game to allow for.

Corlagon wrote:

Lothic wrote:
This discussion is academically moot anyway if what Darth Fez said about CoT not allowing for primary powerset respecs is true.

Reincarnations had already been proposed back at the Titan Network forum; most people (including staff members) liked the idea IIRC.

As Tannim222 and others have responded I'll respectfully "agree to disagree" with your assertion that "most" people actually like this idea.

Titan wrote:

Great stuff, thank you!
Quote:
Protector: Your team strengthens your resolve.

May I ask for some details on what resolve is? Is it resistance to crowd control effects?

Some things need to be kept behind the curtain for a little while longer. We can't give it all away now. I will say that has nothing to do with resistances or crowd control effects.

Is there a certain level at which these masteries become an option or are they available to you from the get-go?

ElevenShots wrote:

Is there a certain level at which these masteries become an option or are they available to you from the get-go?

I'm guessing that at the start you can choose One Mastery... and in just a few levels.. 10 or so... after you pick a few Attack powers, you can decide what you need to supplement your build to perform much better... and thats when you can best decide which supporting 2nd Mastery would do that for you. :)

I really like this.

The plan is to only pick one Spec per build.

I really enjoy the example about Stealth and surprise attacks. The ability to gain critical damage from dropping on them, or striking while someone else has their attention is great. If your character teleports, a teleporting strike should be mixed in their combo.
For instance, the third hit would consist of your character disappearing to reappear behind the opponent and land a crushing blow.

I have to say, I absolutely love surprise strike, it's a sneak attack but it's more than that, it's no longer just a one shot deal, it allows realistic versatility in combat. Now what I would like to see is the ability to modify the part about other's targets in the command tree. Because I might want to solo run some stuff without a team. The problem with buff effects is that it rarely helps the person that does the buff, because the bonus is spread out more. However, it doesn't have to be that way. I played a DR bard for a good long time, and I saw some interesting improvements to the class which you may want to implement into the command mastery. Bards in the last year I played had a 3 way toggle, they could buff everyone with their magical song, and it would be powerful but spread out, or they could choose to buff only themselves and it would be more concentrated, or they could spread it to just people in their group/party and it would be slightly less concentrated. The way I see it, add some versatality to helpful buffs similiar perhaps by saying self only, group only, and archetype only, the reverse could of course be done with offensive buffs. All others only, all others excluding group only, all others excluding archetype only.

This sort of toggle would allow for massive raids in a major city event without excluding mass buffers from participating ^^, and it would allow for archetype vs. archetype arena fights.

Is there any word on Operator Masteries...?