In CoX there were Inspirations, some of which were pretty good, like the one that gave you +1 effective level, etc. These could be bought and sold on the market. Also, there were craft-able temp powers, like the PPD hardsuit.
Then there were also things you could get that didn't require crafting, like the jellomen and the warburg nukes, and the veteran reward powers (Sands of Mu etc).
As a way of sinking IGC out of the economy, which I is I think a thing the economy needs, I think you could force all such "limited number of uses" temp powers to be things that must get crafted, where the crafting process requires a significant amount of IGC to do. So instead of just going to Bloody Bay and getting 5 more jellomen, you do that but have to craft the shivan thingy for a considerable amount of IGC.
I don't want the game to be ALL about the single-use temp powers and jellomen etc, but where they exist, they ought to cost you some IGC to make and then not last forever or be inexhaustable.
Most importantly, it would be good if the game has things in it that provide some temporary benefit, but which cause IGC to be destroyed permanently.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
huh.... I actually like your idea for once..... weird....
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
[CENTER][URL=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/24.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
I don't remember any inspirations that gave a +1 level or a craftable temp power of hardsuit (though I do remember a Halloween costume that was the hardsuit)....did these come late in the game...like the last couple months?
Temp powers as IGC sinks is not a new idea.... CoH had some if you recall...as well as many other crafting/market related sinks. The biggest problem with this ...for me anyway...is that the temp powers are not that attractive usually...the bat and sledge just did not interest me....and the vet attack powers were quickly replaced by ones I could influence with enhancements. They would have to be exceptionally good for me to break character concept/design and find a continued use for them. Things like the Shivans or nukes were powerful because theoretically you had to encounter human opponents to aquire them and acted as a lure to draw people into PvP. It is unlikely that a craftable temp power will have that level off effect as it can be easily exploited.
I do like the idea of using crafting as a sink but I think...personally...it would be better to go with cosmetic or non-combat pets/temp powers you can craft as the sink.
I say things like 'for me anyway' and 'personally' because I have no evidence one way or the other...its just a casual personal observation.
I wouldn't rule out earning a temp power as a reward (and I mean temp as in limited use) from a particular story, or for use in a particular story without requiring crafting. Things like nukes or shivan pets which were desirable because of their potential output were, in that game, considered ok due to the "risk" of pvp to obtain them. We won't be forcing that specific scenario on anyone and it could have potential negative impact if such types of overly useful temp powers were obtained from story content. Though to be honest it is a bit premature to state that as a definitive.
Ideally, most temp'powers in the game would come from crafting, including temp,powers that can be socketed with Aguments and / or Refinements from Augments to really improve their usefulness. If their done well. Temp powers can also offer a selection of customization either at the crafting stage or from a pop menu when equipping for use. The temp may have a default appearance, but also,offer aesthetic decoupling so the player can use the temp to fit the theme or concept of their character.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
As an avid crafter, one of the biggest issues with the craft-able temp powers in CoH was that the inf cost of crafting them was too high for what they could do. The best example was the jet pack. The crafting cost was the same as buying one from the jet-pack dealer, plus you were spending salvage. I understand cash sinks are needed in the game, but if the effect is not worth it, no one will spend it.
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
I love the idea of a slottable temp power that can be customized aesthetically. I would like to know how it would work in regards to what happens to the augments and refinements when it runs out.....and if you can extend its use before it runs out (ensuring it does not happen in the midst of a fight). Also, if you do extend it or if you do let it run out then recraft it...does that mean you go through the process of redesigning it aesthetically?
I'm honestly not quite sure about a PPD Hardsuit "temp power" either (beyond the Halloween one) but the [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ultimate#Level_Shifting_Inspiration]Ultimate Inspirations[/url] were added to game roughly 12-18 months before the end of CoH. I think they came in the same time the "Super" level 4 inspirations were added. They were thrown in (as the story goes) to help people with some of the hardest Incarnate trials at the time.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
As the years drag on post-apocalypse, my memory just get's fuzzier, but here's the [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Temporary_Power:_Backup_Radio#PPD_Reinforcement]paragonwiki[/url] link to the item I was referring to. The temp power was called "Backup Radio" and if you were a hero it summoned a pet called "PPD Reinforcement" which was basically a cop in a Hardsuit as a Pet. But I sepecifically remember crafting the Backup Radio from a salvage and recipes in like 2011-2012.
As for the powers themselves, the gun and the baseball bat were basically terrible and as such not worth paying to craft. The jellomen on the other hand were a good item to have for doing Stateman TFs and some other stuff, and as such would probably have sunk some IGC in their day. In CoX it would have been a drop in the bucket anyway, but I think in a game with a more reasonable economy, having to pay hansomely for such items, if they're so good that they can get you a win an a STF when you otherwise might lose it, would be good thing. Same for the Warburg Nukes.
If a temp power can be enhanced, what happens to the Augments etc after the you exhaust your uses of the power or it power runs out of time or whatever? I would assume that the Augment is destroyed too at that point, and that's how I would want it to work.
I would also like to be very clear that I would prefer the actual Jet Pack costume piece be a costume piece in the avatar builder and the temp power just be something like "Temp Fly" with the option to justify the flying however you want, wings, jet pack, antigravity belt, magic carpet, cloak of levitation, whatever Superman does, etc. I hated that for like 7 years of CoX you couldn't just take Fly from the pool and get a jet pack costume piece for it liek you coudl with wings and rocket boots. The jet packs in that game were all strictly temp powers for far too long.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Too soon to tell how things will pan out. Obviously there will be some form of management involved. Even if there is a way to extend a temp, it would incur a cost and possibly require the use of a craft table or some other activity and not on the fly which means it could still run out during a fight. Crafted temp powers are meant to be temporary so they will have some form of limited usage.
There are advantages and drawbacks to recharging temps. Recharging is good in a way that a player can keep the temp longer. It acts as a sink in cost upkeep. And it allows a player to hold onto say a rare temp power.
The not so good part is that the upkeep cost would eventually not be worth it on more common temps. It would end up less costly over time to just craft another and keep it in reserve for one one runs out. Then there is the economic factor in the market. If people can keep a temp,power by recharging it, the item may be less likely to be sold on the market unless the player already has it. Over time the items can end up viewed as "junk" because everyone can keep a temp and recharge it from time to time when it is convenient.
Having temp powers that truly expire can be useful in that they provide opportunities for a player to make decisions on when is a good time to use a temp power (particularly when they are more rare). Of course any temp power that expires and carries a socket would consume the Augment. Which is a other useful sink in that to craft the temp and obtain the augment / refinement and socket it again can incur additional costs. Especially if we go down the path of allowing temps to have enough sockets to place set Aguments within them.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Oh it was an incarnate thing.....that's why I don't remember it....I pretty much ignored the incarnate stuff at issue 19...it just wasn't fun to me...long boring fights with stupid restrictions the end result being having to do it a bunch more times just so you can do the next one when it was released. Trial Farming was all incarnate stuff was to me.
Obviously its temporary...I meant if it has 10 uses originally can I extend that to 20 or 200 or if its time based can I extend the limit to where I make it permanent if I so desire. The point I was getting at is if the power is given all the options to fit thematically with a character you create to the point it becomes part of that character there should be a way to actually do so either by continued extensions or by eventual permanency.
It really does depend....at least to me...if ..as I said...it becomes a part of my characters design then I would be willing to sink time and effort into keeping it...but I fear I might be in the minority on that.
Ok, you are losing me here....if re-crafting the temp extends it why does it have to extend it less than the original crafting amount? If you get 10 uses and recraft it...would that not make it 20 uses....or do you picture a recrafting costing more than the original crafting? Would need this explained more from a conceptual point (fully understanding that its not set in stone and whatnot).
Obviously there is some factor of the market and crafting system I am not seeing as this could be fixed by allowing the same temp powers to add to one another ....10 uses plus 10 uses = 20 uses. That way it does not matter who crafted the temp or where you got it...they add to one another making.
Some temp powers could easily be made to expire easier....there is a big difference between a lazer club temp power and a disposable healing station...one could easily be multiuse and extendable while the other could be a single use and not extendable. Best of both worlds.
Without some means to extend the life of a temp power I would hate the idea of an augment or refinement being consumed upon its expiration. That's too much item decay for me and as a result I doubt I would use it. I'm not saying don't put it in...I'm saying I wouldn't use it if it was.
The way I pictured it from your original description was a way to further customize your character through the use of extendable temp powers that could easily replace a low to mid level power you did not want in your power sets.... what it seems like now is a temp power that requires slotting to be useful, expires quickly and costs way more than just crafting by consuming augments and refinements. In that state it just does not interest me.
Yeah I can actually sympathize with your thoughts about the Incarnate trials if all you wanted to do was farm them. Doing them over and over again just for the sake of doing them would have been boring.
But as it turns out I was a pretty hardcore badge collector in CoH. By the end I had two different characters who each had literally almost every badge (1490+) in the game. Some of the hardest ones to get were the [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hero_Achievement_Badges#Task_Force_Badges]trial badges[/url] from several of the Incarnate trials (particually from the [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Keyes_Island_Reactor_Trial]Antimatter trial[/url]). It often took dozens of attempts to finally get them.
The irony of going after these badges was that I effectively managed to "farm" those trials and get plenty of resources to obtain the Incarnate powers all without actually focusing on just grinding the trials. By paying attention to getting the badges (which was fun and challenging to me) I also basically by accident managed to do all the "boring farming" without actually being bored by it.
Just saying there are ways to approach "boring" aspects of a game by focusing on other concurrent goals.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I think the disconnect stemmed from the difference between (re)crafting and "extending" where I interpreted extending as a form of upkeep like many other games do. Which over time, since this is different in that the power is temporary in nature, having upkeep is different than recrafting the temp power to extend its use.
If the temp power has to be recrafted, the only thing that changes here is whether or not there is any aesthetic customization involved, and if there is, whether the player has to choose their customization again. There is a lot open to interpration here. Temp powers, *if* they had any aesthetic customization may have a limited set of choices, or be very open to interpreation depending on the theme of the temp power. This can be a simple matter of UI, where if the player previously crafted a temp power and gave it a customization for their particular character, the information is stored and the player can select the pre-set customization upon recrafting. It should resolve both the issue of players losing too much time in having to recustomize a temp power and avoids forcing any form of customization on the temp in case the player is crafting it for sale.
I would say that even if temp powers are useful, commons would not be made in a way as to replace powers from primary or secondary power sets. That would be poor design as the game would over time become more gear dependant on temp power usage over actual power choices. We won't go down that rabbits hole. Of course more rare temps may be particularly useful, but would have greater limitations imposed, such as higher costs in crafting due to requring sockets to get really useful or just having higher crafting costs and limited usuage assocated with the temp.
I think it would be a mistake as to interpret temp powers becoming permanent or a part of the character's functional build. They should be treated as temporary, with either regular usage (commons), semi-regular usage (uncommon), and tactical usage (best for particular situations, rare). The point being even if a temp has sockets or not, the usage of "stronger" temps would be limited because they are not meant to replace regular power usage. Socketed temps may be useful, but become more useful when socketed out. The entire point is that they become very good powers of their own right but have a much higher upkeep; obtaining the crafting minutia to recraft, the cost of crafting, and the cost of socketing. This offsets the concept of "go the place where it is really risky (read pvp zone) to get really useful temp power and also creates a heavy sink for the economy.
Any permanent power granted through game play, crafted or not, would most likely be the result of completing a particular story, or combination of earning particular badges and what not, as to provide a difficulty in obtaining, and have other limiters for usage (like long cool down timers and such).
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Well...in essence I am describing an upkeep system....its just a very simple one.
I would just think that a simple additive nature to temp powers would work best in this regard.... first aquisition and you choose the aesthetic (whatever you choose to offer) any further acquisition can be added to that aesthetic temp power...if you want to change the aesthetic of the temp you follow the same procedures as any other power you want to change. One other thing to consider is the crafting system can include an aesthetic component ....meaning you need to not just craft the temp power but also the aesthetic component. This to me is a better way to provide a sink than deletion of slotted augments/refinements.
It would be more difficult to control I agree but its not a foregone conclusion. In CoH we had a great many attacks or limited use items that were permanent .. sand of mu, team teleport ect. If these temp powers were ones that were on par with the ones they are to replace (most likely the lower level powers) or were of limited use/ long timers you could offer a power which gives players more variety in choice.
Let me explain.... A character with Rad Blast may want to replace one of the two starter powers with an ice blast that is identical in every way except instead of the -def it offers a slow aspect.
This may be too far towards the much more difficult to balance free power selection than you want to go...but if you limit the temp powers able to be extended to effective permanency to ones that are considered low level powers or powers that have limited/situational use it won't make them required. It would not go too far towards gear dependence IMO. The addition of these powers to a characters build would not be upward growth but sideways growth.
That's fair enough....but in that case I doubt they would act as the IGC sink others are thinking it to be. They would not for me...at the very least.
As I said, that's fair enough....but a temp power that requires too much effort to have available when you want it then it becomes something that you work around.
As I said temp powers should not be designed to replace primary powers. I doubt with how the power system is designed it would be possible in the first place. Another thing to consider: if a player wants to change the effect of their powers or add to it, it is something that may be possible by so keting a Power Set augment or a proc effect socketed directly into the power itself.
Highly useful powers which can be game changers for character capability (see warbug nukes and shivan pets) should be difficult to obtain and since the difficulty isn't necessarily tied to the risk of something like constant defeat in pvp, it is more of a pve risk and reliant on chance or matter time time (to get the drop or earn the fee to purchase from the market). Since there needs to be more at stake for something like this the risk here is associated with cost. By fiving these types of temps their own sockets provides a means to which the players who do decide to invest will. It isn't meant to be something everyone would do, can do yes, but not would. And the goal here for these types of temps would be that theybare still useful at base but can be further improved with sockets.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I think I have confused you with my use of the word 'replace'. I don't mean that it removes powers or changes the actual powerset....I meant it to be another option to pursue only. In my defense I thought my intentions were clear through the idea of continued re-crafting of the temp power.
Let me explain it in total so we are on the same page in regards to my suggestion.
I would like there to be temp powers that are on par with beginning powers in a powerset or are of limited/situation use. Then those temp powers have the ability to be extended by recrafting or purchasing this from the market multiple times resulting in much longer use. Allow some minor level of aesthetic choice to the temp power. Finally those temp powers can be slotted with augments and refinements similar to powers in a powerset .
If all of these conditions are met (the only one that you have not said to be one you are already considering is the extending one I suggest) then If I so choose...I can ignore one of the powers in my powerset and use the temp power in its place.
A few benefits to this are a IGC sink that is more likely to be used (IMO) than just offering temp powers and it offers even more versatility to players builds by making temp powers a viable option.
The disadvantages are it makes balancing tougher, a mistake can have long term effects or it could set up a gear based system if not handled properly.
To use examples from CoH (if you bear with me) the temp power "St. Louis Slammer'. It was a weak melee attack that was roughly on par with one of the two starting powers in a melee powerset. (most notably the Tank power Beheader from the Axe set). If that power was able to have its use extended from 30 uses to 60 just by recrafting it...or 90....120 ect ect ect... it can...become effectively unlimited providing the upkeep of recrafting is paid. Now if St. Louis Slammer was able to be slotted similar to Beheader they are effectively the same power (yes they are not exact but they are close enough to be useful for the example). Now I come along with an abundance of materials and IGC and decide I want my character to use a bat along with my Energy Melee and decide I want to not use Barrage.
In regards highly useful or game changer temp powers...they can still be made so that they are not able to be combined as an extention. A shivan can still only be max 5 times before you have to go and earn it again or a nuke can still be 3 uses. I am talking more about the lower level not game changers....the ones that allow for thematic or variation in effects. The most rare and powerful temp powers can stay temp powers as you see fit.
Temp Powers ought to have multiple timers on them.
Total time since creation. This includes time spent offline.
Time played since creation. This is limited to time spent online.
Time duration of using Power (toggle). This is limited to active usage of the Power.
Charges countdown of using Power (click). This determines how many times a Power can be activated.
My personal preference would be to make use of more than one of these timers. So 7 days of calendar time (offline counts against this) and 4 hours of toggle use (for example) for a Travel Temp Power. This would ensure that the Temp Power doesn't stick around forever, provided that it remains unused (or even just used sparingly).
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I still had my wedding band temp power at the end of the game that had been used for just 2 minutes over the life of my account. Not bad for 7ish years of game play.
My "temp" jump packs were in a similar boat as well....
That's my point about temp powers..... they just are not used
I used to go to Bloody Bay to go get my jellomen replaced a lot, I used them many many times. Given the total lack of PVP action on the Triumph server, it was basically free jellomen. I felt they should have added in a cost to craft at that time if not from the very beginning. The Warburg nukes were a thing I would have used more if the process you had to go through to get them were as fast and easy as the jellomen. It just took too much time and effort to navigate the missile control complex, get a scientist away from the spidermen, then walk them slowly to their safehouse THREE times to get a nuke, so I didn't do it. If it had been more like save ONE scientist and get a nuke, I probably would have done it more. I also used the veteran reward powers a fair amount on characters that didn't have great damage output (my gravity controller, some of my defenders).
One place that temp powers can shine is an less-effective but strictly DIFFERENT attacks than your character normall has. Like if you're an Ice Blaster, you can use a Shivan or a nuke to do non-Ice damage to something, if it's highly resistant to Ice or something. So like if you find yourself fighting a tough boss, you might be willing to spend the INF to pop a shivan or two during that fight just to debuff it for you and maybe do some damage of a type that boss is not as resistant to, etc.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I'm not sure you could generalize and say something like "ALL temp powers are bad" just because SOME of them were not used. As has been pointed out things like Shivans and Nukes were used all the time.
The key clearly involves weighing the usefulness of the temp power versus the difficulty in getting it. Temp powers that were relatively hard to obtain (like being the reward from a particular unique mission) were often kept as "souvenirs" simply because they were considered to be RARE regardless of their usefulness as temp powers.
To make sure temp powers are actually used as temp powers they have to have the right mix of usefulness and obtainability. These factors matter just as much as whether there are timers attached to them or not.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
My Tankers got a ton of use out of the Veteran Blackwand and Nemesis Staff. It was great to have a Ranged attack when the situation warranted.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Shivans and nukes were also pointed out as extremely high powered with little difficulty in obtaining. And not the type of temp power I am discussing in regards to my suggestion.
Nor are vet rewards as they are effectively what I am suggesting be possible with lower tiered temp powers.
And because everyone seems to have missed it ...I am talking about craftable temp powers designed to be acquired multiple times.
Keep in mind that pretty much every temp power was able to be reacquired. All I am saying is that with the ability to slot and customize its appearance that Tannim has said was possible (read possible not promised) the logical step to making that effort useful is to allow the players to stack the uses instead of having to go and refill it after each use. Also keep in mind that I understand that some temp powers (like the oft mentioned shivan and nukes) are special cases that require the effort to reacquire and if the devs so decide...those ones would not be stackable or extendable.
Almost everyone brings up the shivans and nukes as the go to example of a used temp power in opposition of my suggestion... yet few talk about any other temp power that was repeatedly sought after by individual characters.....most other summons, attacks travel powers ect were forgotten either after they obtained it or after they went through the initial use of them. Few people went looking for the Loa Bone, Warwolf Whistle, Goldbricker Rocket Pack, Med Kit, ect. Yet many people would find ways to incorporate the permanent vet powers (sands of mu or nemesis staff) or purchasable travel powers (ninja run, beast run) because they fit a concept and they felt it could replace powers they were less interested in.
To me that's strong evidence that the temp power either has to be more effective than what you have access to in your characters build by a fair margin, so easily obtained as to be trivial or it has to be permanent otherwise they will be ignored or quickly forgotten. I am not a fan of the idea of extremely powerful temp powers as it makes our own powers pale in comparison. I also don't think they should be trivial to obtain.... That leaves the idea of stacking them....which has the very nice advantage of acting as an IGC sink that would be effective (IMO).
Almost every temp power in CoH was able to be reacquired through the use or flashback. People kept them as 'souvenirs' not because they were rare...but because they were too much of a bother to get again for how little use they provided.
They were also obtained by the normal progress of the game.. if those same temp powers were not mission rewards and instead were a craft recipe they would have been ignored (with the exception of summon powers which I don't think should be a craft recipe).
I agree...but the unscientific evidence I have gathered is the powers need to be grossly high powered and/or obtained on a whim.
Honestly...think back to your characters in CoH and think how many temp powers you actually used and went looking for repeatedly on the same character. Now think why.
Thank you ...its nice to see someone support my opinion.
Just as FYI Flashbacks didn't exist in CoH until Issue 11 which was 3.5 years after launch. While it's true people could have gone back and gotten mission based temp powers after Issue 11 that wasn't possible before that.
As a point of reference I tend to be a "collector" in MMOs. Since I started playing the game at launch I simply got into the habit of basically saving every temp power I got as a "souvenir" especially because (as I pointed out) many of them were rare due to only being obtainable in missions you could NOT repeat at the time. Even after Flashbacks I usually just saved them because I'd estimate 95% of them were either too weak and/or situational to bother with.
I'm not necessarily arguing that temps must be "grossly high powered and/or obtained on a whim" to be of any use as temp powers. But clearly many temps from CoH were simply too trivial, pointless and/or rare for whatever reasons. I would suggest there could be a middle ground of better powers for CoT that wouldn't have to be grossly overpowered but yet more generally useful overall.
Just because the CoH Devs generally thought up "bad" temp powers doesn't necessarily mean the entire concept is bad. The CoT Devs just need to learn the lessons from CoH and do better with them.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
People routinely used the Bankjob travel powers, the jellomen, the warburg nukes, the veteran rewards attacks, the accolade powers, and the Backup Radio didn't totally suck. You gotta have your own real regular powers as your main attack chain though. If anything the pet summons and "lead off grenade" type powers are probably the best model for temps you'd use often. Chuck a nuke in there, then start a fight, or pop a shivan and let it fight for you without interrupting your attack chain, etc.
I just think there needs to be a cost to craft them because you don't want people to just use that stuff to the exclusion of actual powers they'd put in their build. Like I would personally not want people to be able to have a free version of Fly that is a temp jetpack that you can just re-produce every time it runs out, for free. I'm not even sure I want that to be available as a re-applied thing at all. I can't see a flavorful reason to limit people to one 30-min jetpack per toon as a lifetime limit, so maybe just don't have those at all, but still have Fly as a power (or even different versions of it) and then have the jetpack just as a costume piece.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I don't understand...are you saying that flashback should not be considered because it was not included on release? Heck....not all of the temp powers were included on release. Nor was crafting, redside or multitudes of other things. I don't see how that invalidates my use of it in my argument. And just FYI I was in CoH during the 'fake' beta they had.
There could be... I can't think of one though....so I suggested something I could conceive of. Something that in no way stops that middle ground from being found and offered in addition to my suggestion.
That's just it...I don't think its a bad concept. Using temp powers as an IGC sink is a good idea.... but not in the way the OP suggested (IMO).... when Tannim explained a couple possible ways they would improve temp powers I was on board...providing the craftable ones could be stackable.
The idea of extended temp powers is not new. CoH effectively had exactly what I am suggesting in the form vet powers, accolades and purchasable powers. Many of those vet powers, accolade powers and purchasable powers were variations on temp powers that could be had by playing the game...except they were now permanent.
I am suggesting we extend that 'good' concept from CoH into CoT by actively designing craftable temp powers with the added benefit of being stackable (as an IGC sink). Part of my argument was that those same 'bad' temp powers could be made 'good' temp powers by simply offering the two things Tannim said was possible (slottable and customizable) and my suggestion of the ability to stack them. At no point did I say every single Temp power in CoT should be stackable. Nor did I suggest that the devs should only include the temp powers from CoH as temp powers in CoT. \
I don't know what your position is at all Lothic. Other than there is a possibility that maybe...temp powers can be made useful. Of course they can be.
In my experience I have yet to see one be sought after for use that was not high powered or ridiculously easy to obtain. Neither of which I would like to see in CoT.
Were people clamoring to get another temp travel power after that easy to obtain and free power wore out? Do you think the Shivans and Nukes are examples of powers that should be regularly used? Was the reason people regularly used the vet reward or accolade powers regularly because they were permanent?
If a temp power as I have described can be extended and slotted it is functionally no different than real regular powers.
I agree...but unless they are exceptionally useful even those will never be sought after. Flashbang grenades, Loa Bone ect....they were mostly obtained and forgotten or they were used up and never gotten again. As an IGC sink they would be of little use. Its not until you get to levels of power that exceed what a player can do with his regular powers or provide an ability that is not found elsewhere do temp powers become sought after and hence provide the IGC sink you desire.
But when you allow players to customize a seemingly useless temp power to fit the character and slot it for effectiveness then you give them a reason to keep going back for it....providing more of an IGC sink... and when you allow them to stack it so they can spend more time between refills it provides even more incentive to use it which in turn makes it a bigger IGC sink.
I agree ...there should be a cost. That's the entire point....to make it an effective IGC sink. But I don't see why it can't be used to the exclusion of 'actual powers' if it is designed with that in mind and as such is no more or less effective.
If every time you use a temp power, it is used up (or maybe you get limited ammo, like 6 shots ofa gun, etc) then you'll only use it all the time if you can afford to replace it. if it;s more expensive, it will be saved up for special occasions (as it should) and as such irt should probably be pretty good for that reason. I personalty would make the price to craft such thing cost-prohibitive in the sense that nobody would want to rely on any of them all the time as a part of the normal attack chain. And it probably doesn't go far enough to sink meaningful amounts of IGC out, but this is probably an example of a tax so high it doesn't so much raise money for the government but rather it just discourages people from indulging in too much of a good thing too often.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
So how do you see your original suggestion working? Do you picture multitudes of differing temp powers the players can choose from to act as a reliable source of IGC sink? Do you expect that these temp powers will be so good players will be constantly looking for them? Do you expect that there will be a forced mechanic that makes people pay when they get the temp power? Do you think each temp powers cost will be so high as to provide a good IGC sink?
All you have said is that temp powers should cost and they should be temporary. You said why they should cost (as a sink)...but you have not explained how it would be effective as such....and you have not even touched on why you think they should be 'save up for special occasions'.
As I see it, the best way an IGC sink can be made for an MMO is by using one of two things.
First is customization....costume, abilities, bases, vehicals, ect.
Second is ammunition... expendable power use
My suggestion of stackable temp powers fills both of those roles. Its bullets for the gun, gas for the motor, batteries for the flashlight... hamsters for the wheel in your clockwork stereo.
I guess what I'm basically saying is, CoX's temp powers, the ones that DIDN'T have an INF cost to make, should have had that, in my opinion, just as a way of balancing how good there could be against how often you'd want to use them.
Some examples:
People used to skip vertical travel powers to make room in their builds for more attacks or other "actually relevant combat powers". So then they would try to get as much use out of things like the bankjob travel powers, the jingle jet, etc as they could to offset that choice (that or just demand Recall Friend all the time). I would prefer to put people to a choice that's more like "you can skip Fly in your main power selection for the sake of this other temp version, but it's going to cost you a market-relevant amount of INF to do it" So like, if you had to pay 100mil INF for that jetpack, you'd feel the drive to maybe just take Fly instead, or it would at least be a more attractive optionm I hope.
People used to used to spam Shivans against Ghost widow in the Statesman TF. Thos were basically free, but had to be acquired in Bloody Bay despite the PVP risks. Eventually those PVP "iron costs" didn't exist anymore and the jellomen were just free for the taking. You had to be able to defeat some turrets by yourself, but that wasn't terribly hard. i would have added in a cost to craft the shivan summoning device to make it about as expensive as a fairly popular rare IO recipe.
Whether or not any of this would have actually made a difference in CoX's economy, (and I doubt it would have) I still would have added in those costs, if it were upto me.
The reason I don't like a reloadable gun as the model for a temp powers is that I think at that point you're making the actual powers in the main build a little obsolete if that becomes the most attractive option. I would hate to see the game turn into a thing where everyone makes a toon, then abandons their build for the most part because the temp powers are better, and plentiful, and can be used repeatedly forever for a fee. I bet that model would sink IGC better than what I 'm proposing, but it's not what I would want the game to be. If that were the model, I would prefer it were limited to one "permanent temp power" per toon, making it effectively a "slot" you can fill with your "pay to use" power of choice, be it a travel power or an attack, or whatever. Most classes would probably use that slot to compensate for deficiencies in the main build options (tankers using it to get a really decent ranged attack, blasters using it to get some kind of damage reduction or defense power, or people just using it as their vertical travel power, etc). I guess that would be okay.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Radiac what is the difference between crafting multiple copies of a temp power and when one expires, selecting the next copy you crafted (or purchased off the market?) not much other than dealing with the UI.
The concept here isn't a reloadablemgun model, even though at the end it may look like that. Crafting multiple copies of a temp power and allowing them to stack in uses even if there were unlimited numbers of stacks (and it is premature to say there are unlimited number of stacks!), still is a finite resource. Someone had to craft each and every copy of said temp power not just the "reloaded clips" of the temp power.
While the concern that players will rely on crafted powers in favor of their power sets, it too is a premature assumption to make. Player builds will operate differently than they did in the old game. Power sets will have more intrinsic mechanics because of the the way aesthetics work, if one power set can look like another, they require distinctive mechanics to separate one from another. Another thing, many augment sets (when we include them) are intended to provide benefits for the use of that power, not always globally improving the entire character. This means less of building for global recharge, or global accuracy buffs and so on. This makes augmented set powers more viable over temps as temps won't directly benefit any improvement without whole character buffs.
And the final difference here, to lame some temps more viable, is to prove them sockets of their own requiring yet another finite resource in crafted augments. The "really good" temps, whole being good in their own right, would be truly really good if they also had augments socketed. And if a player wants to stack these? We are looking at multiple finite resources being created thus sinking IGC and resources out of the game world.
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- Combat Mechanic -
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So your thread is not about temp powers as IGC sinks at all then. Its about limiting temp power use as much as possible through extreme costs for their use. That's almost the complete opposite of your original posts reasoning.
I think you missed where I explained the power level of these temp powers.
It would also be unlikely that many players would ever want to replace an entire build with temp powers as it would be a build of quick low damage attacks or non combat powers. Not to mention that it would require an insane amount of IGC to continually stack these temps.
But in my suggestion there is no 'permanent temp power'. There is stacking to make them effectively permanent....but that is a fluctuating factor as it would entirely depend on the players commitment to the game. A person who plays once a week needs far less to make it effectively permanent than one who plays daily.
It seems pointless to discuss this as you have missed everything I have said my suggestion to be which addresses many of your stated concerns. Its almost as if you mistakenly saw 'extended temp powers' as 'permanent temp powers' and stopped reading to argue this wrong assumption.
Here is my suggestion so you don't have to scroll up.
The dev specifically design craftable temp powers with the idea they could be stackable. This allows them to ensure that the power level of the temp is not unbalancing for constant use.
Use the aforementioned slotting and aesthetic customization (both of which is a possibility only not a promise) to make these temp powers a desirable option thus making them a more reliable IGC sink.
Do not include Summon powers among these stackable temp powers.
Continue to make other limited use temp powers as rewards for activities/missions or as single use crafting options.
This is where we as players are at a sever disadvantage when discussing a suggestion. We just have no idea what the final product is going to be.
Still its nice to see you get what I was going for as a concept and are not casually dismissing it.
* cough *
Inspirations.
* ahem *
Inspirations fell very much into the Easy Come/Easy Go category of being cheap throwaways. And yet the "big" Inspirations could sell for decent INF on the market, since they weren't quite so easy to come by (except if doing Kora Fruit repeatable missions out in the Shadow Shard or GM hunts for Hamidon Raids in The Hive).
The trouble is that balancing the "value" of a Temp Power such that it's useful but not overpowering is an extremely delicate thing and highly susceptible to disturbance (the phrase "head of a pin" comes to mind for some reason). You'll usually wind up with something that is either overpowered or worthless, and hardly ever fall into the "goldilocks zone" in between those two extremes.
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I apologize for my lack of understanding of other people's ideas.
I just would really feel bad if the game we subject to statements like the hypothetical one below:
"My toon is named Freez-o, because he's a guy that does ranged -movement damage which I've skinned as 'ice blasts'. Turns out though that a lot of foes are hightly resistant to his attacks so he uses a lot of off-the-shelf temp powers as a way of actually fighting. So Freez-o mostly just lobs acid grenades at people instead of actually shooting ice ant anyone, because ice isn't that great."
However that scenario gets avoided, I'm happy, so long as it gets avoided.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
The hypothetical scenario has a lot more to do with the implementation of particular combat mechanics within the game world than it has to do with using temp powers. An ideal scenario would be one where there is parity within the game world where there are targets "weak" to certain kinds of effects (including damage types) and others more resilient toward certain effects. When encountering those targets more resilient towards his effects Freez-O uses his resources to acquire / design / make a power with "acid", except the player colored the "acid" white with bluish hues, used Freez-O's typical emanation point where he shoots his regular "ice" blasts from (let's say his hands), and for the player the temp power is Freez-O's armor freezing liquid nitrogen.
Now when encountering those foes, he hits them with his "liquid nitrogen" blasts that weakens their protection, and follows up with his ice blasts which now do more damage.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I think he just meant he did not want to see someone who was unhappy with their build rely on outside sources for correction and instead wants them to start all over.
YOu mean like how Smashing/lethal damage was good to deal out at the lower levelsbut at the higher levels its effectiveness was reduced quite a bit as the mobs tended to have better resists against it?
The same also applies to resists... in CoX you got more variety of what would hurt you at the higher end of the game so you could quite easily go up against a range of mobs that could melt your "resist" based toon. All just because you chose the wrong power set at the start...
As Tannim222 said, the issue with Freez-O in that example is more that the game is poorly designed in terms of ice powers, not that somebody is using temp powers to overcome that deficiency in the game. Such problems are better solved by fixing the deficiency; fixing symptoms by killing player-found solutions to problems never results in an improved game, merely in players looking for other work-arounds, which then later have to be "fixed," which leads to more work-arounds, and always risks breaking other, working parts of the game or preventing cool things from ever getting in.
Identifying core causes of problems is critical to properly solving them.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
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I'm clearly suggesting the precedent for "saving" temp powers as souvenirs was clearly established at the beginning of CoH because most of the ones that existed in the game for the first few years had the unfortunate combination of being uniquely rare (only obtainable in certain missions) and relatively weak/situational as temp powers. Sure these things got a little better as time went on in COH, but there was much more they could have done with temp powers that they didn't do.
An obvious "middle ground" would be things like Tannim's suggestion for making more temp powers slotable and customizable which would both be IGC sinks as well.
Also, ironically enough, I'd suggest making temp powers actually temporary by instituting more strict time limits for their expiration. Part of the reason most people didn't use temps wasn't because they absolutely sucked as powers but because they could be kept forever. If these powers expired (even if it was within a day or a week) then people would be more willing to use them as temp powers instead of forgetting about them or collecting them.
Another quick idea is to have temp powers that mimic the effects of inspirations that simply last longer than 1 minute. CoH actually started going towards this idea with the [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inspirations#Dual_Type_Inspirations]Dual/Team Inspirations[/url] that typically lasted 5 minutes but with huge IGC sinks players could create temp powers with effects that would last say 10-15 minutes at a time.
My position is that I think temp powers could be a useful concept in CoT if handled correctly. You seem to want to do away with them completely (or at least look at them negatively) just because their potential wasn't fully exploited in CoH.
For what it's worth I wouldn't mind certain temp powers being huge IGC sinks - if someone wants to spend a billion to have a single huge zone clearing nuke that's only usable say once a week then more power to them.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
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And I am clearly trying to state that when flashback was introduced is irrelevant to my argument. The fact is even when flashback was introduced those same (and new) temp powers were not actively sought out by the same characters repeatedly. They got them once and either used them or ignored them. You say so in the quote above.
I don't agree that this is an obvious middle ground to the weak unused temp powers and the commonly used very powerful temp powers. Its a huge step in the right direction....and could be a middle ground if they are carefully designed.....but it still does not make my suggestion any less viable as either an alternative or addition to this middle ground.
Just taking a power like St Louis Slammer and making it customizable and including some slots will not make people desire it. To make it something players will sink IGC into it either needs to be very obviously more effective than what you can get in your regular build and in most cases very easy to obtain. If it isn't it will be ignored...doubly so if to make it comparable to your build it requires additional cost in the form of augments.
Yes that was part of the reason....but limiting them even more will not make them more desirable. If this were to be implemented then you would need to make them the temp powers that much more effective (powerful, versatile ect) to offset the fact that they would expire.
So as an alternative to my suggestion of stacking temp powers (thereby extending their usefulness) you suggest an alternative of extending the usefulness of temp powers with the idea they can be re-crafted.
That's only true if you ignore everything I have said before and after. ..
That's where you find what my actual suggestion is, why I use the poorly designed and implemented temp powers of CoH as examples and the true purpose behind my suggestion. Much of which was repeated in the post you are replying to here but seem to have missed in your effort to prove the value of temp powers (which funnily enough I agree with as I pointed out in that same post).
Right... but your main premise seems to be that temp powers can only be "useful" as long as they are grossly overpowered and/or trivial to obtain and somehow there's something wrong with players seeking those "best" powers out as the only ones they use. The problem is that you're never going to prevent people from using the easiest, most bang-for-their-buck temp powers no matter what they are so making sure those powers aren't "too" easy to get should be the primary goal. It's just like farming in MMOs - the Devs can't prevent it from happening but they can at least control it enough to keep it from becoming game-breaking. In other words there's always going to be a Shivan-like power that seems to be the most popular. Why get "upset" at it as long as the Devs control it properly?
I actually think that relatively weak powers like a "St Louis Slammer" could be made useful in CoT if they're implemented in more thoughtful ways. Sadly I always got the impression that many of the temp powers in CoH were just "tossed in" without any real consideration or care. On the other end of the spectrum I don't have a problem with "zone nuke" type temp powers as long as they cost enough time, effort and/or IGC to get. I think you're looking at the failures of CoH with respect to temp powers and assuming that CoT is automatically doomed to repeat those exact same failures.
The key problem that we're BOTH suffering from right now is that we don't know exactly what MWM already has planeed for these things. We are likely talking past each other mainly because we don't know enough to know what we don't know yet. I'm willing to sit back and give them a chance without being too worried about it just yet.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
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No...again, I am suggesting that those same powers that were deemed useless could be made desirable with the implementation of my suggestion.
Nowhere do I say that seeking out the best power is wrong...I do however state that those 'best' temp powers are not ones that would be affected by my suggestion.
I am not trying to prevent anyone from seeking out the most bang for their buck...what I am suggesting is a way to use players desire for customization as an IGC sink.
I am not upset about shivan like powers....I am upset about having to re-explain that my suggestion does not affect those powers in the least.
I am offering one such way. That's the entire point to using it as an example...
No the disconnect is that what I am suggesting and what you are against are two separate things.
It seems that you have not read it so I will re-post it here.
If you want to sit back and wait I can respect that...but please ....if you are going to discuss it further look at my actual suggestion.
If Temp Powers can serve a Utility Purpose in addition to a Combat Purpose you'd be most of the way there. That way the Combat Purpose can be a slight step below slotted Tertiary in strength (i.e. not overpowered) and yet still be "useful" beyond the Damage/Mez it can generate.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I think any power that's so good you'd want to rely on it all the time, despite the high cost to craft, could have an artificial limit placed on how often you are allowed to activate it. Justifying that in immersive game terms might be tricky, but probably doable. Like if the jellomen were replaced by a Government Black Ops Squad that you only get to call in once per month of real time due to governmetn red tape or need for security clearance, etc. Same witht he Warburg Nuke power, only now it's an Air Strike from a jet flying overhead.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising