Signature Powers has been a topic for awhile. But as we are not launching at level cap, it's not fully developed. I, for one, would love to hear everyone's ideas.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but given that tertiary pools are taking a similar role to APPs/PPPs in CoH, when we're talking about "signature powers" I assume that is closer in role to incarnate powers. Personally, I was never a fan of the way those were implemented, as much as I loved the rest of the game.

Firstly, on the subject of recharges as long as an hour, that would generally seem unwise to me. How would you balance such things, if they're supposed to be really impactful? Would you balance an epic fight at the end of TF-style content as if everyone had theirs available? And what happens to a team if they don't? Part of why I didn't like incarnate powers is that they trivialized too much content. The other issue I had with them was that they seemed to make characters less distinct rather than more so; there wasn't anything "signature" about them. Past a certain point, everyone was running around with a big nuke, and pets, and...

So my feeling is that end-tier powers should be designed to enable characters to excel in their classification. I can think of a few ways to do that:

1. Designing signature powers for each classification. Commanders have access to a new control power; stalwarts get a rez, substantial self-heal; etc. These powers could potentially be flavoured to your particular primary powerset also.

2. Metapowers. Things like burnout, power boost and domination from CoH; or buffs to regen/recovery/recharge/momentum generation etc.

3. Tying it to masteries? Perhaps your signature power actually acts as a way to super-charge your mastery benefits for a short time.

And of course some mixture of all three could be possible to provide a variety of choices.

I think the signature powers ought to be from a set that accesses graphics unavailable to other powers, so that when you pop one, newbies go "OOOOHHH, what is THAT?!?! I gotta get me one of them!"

I think they should be powerful, long-recharge time powers, possibly with self debuffs, like self immob while activating, intrerrupt times, self knockdown or even "suicide" effects where you knock yourself unconscious when performing them. Stuff like high AoE damage/debuff nukes and Moment of Glory come to mind.

I read every one is debatting on what could be this epic power. But, i wonder … from where it comes ?
(i'll go from the idea that CoT will ask from where our powers come from)
Ok, we have a class power, masteries to precise them, tiers to choose the way they work, a momentum to boost them... But, from where do all of this come from ?

The fundation of all of this, is, to my mind, the nature of your mutation. Is this a natural mutation ? a accidental one ? maybe you are the result of an exprience from your childhood ? Whatever... You choose this for your character story at the beginning. And what ?
Maybe this epic powers could be a power linked to your nature. Maybe you could choose one from 3, 4 or 5 powers and then customized it like the powers but only after having finish an epic [customized from your past] quest :) like something Bonus.
Of course, it's important to know what you'll have at end in order to not be desappointed since we can't change. The description, the way it looks, seing an exemple before finishing the quest, are important to me.

It don't think an epic power should come from your class because every one will have the same and it will not be "EPIC" to have it like that. If the power is EPIC, it should be at least as "emotive" as the way "Momentum" was describes, it should be hard to gain. It's an Epic power, only the ones can have it, it's not like knowing how to shot with a blaster from your eyes ^^

Tannim222 wrote:

This got me thinking in a completely new direction. The concept behind Mastery Powers being the key method(s) for how your character plays within their Classification.
What if your "signature power" drove your combination of Mastery Powers in more refined or even new directions further reinforcing or widening your character's play style. Even if it is something that happens for a brief time or is used up on activation. Might even make a nice possible horizontal advancement system for level cap.

Happy to hear that.

I was thinking about it more this morning and it occurred to me that part of the difficulty in addressing the issue is that we're not sure what exactly is covered by the existing power structure. I'm assuming that you've already built into the system a "set-defining" power for each option, in the same vein as fulcrum shift, control set pets, blaster nukes etc. (How well each particular set's tier 9 accomplished that task in CoH is another matter of course.) From what has been revealed about aesthetic decoupling, it also seems that any "signature power" system should follow in the same vein, and so I don't see that animations are really what would set them apart, except perhaps in scope. But as you said Tannim222, masteries are a key manner in which a character's mechanical distinctiveness is created, if I understand correctly. So it would seem logical that signature powers would be an extension of that system in some manner.

Perhaps you get access to a higher tier mastery or there are new mastery options intended to add breadth. These options could include (customizable) powers for those wishing to go that route.

Pyro, you bring up some very good points there.

As we don't really know much beyond basic layout about what the types and scope of powers that will be in primary, secondary and tertiary sets, and since MWM has said that tertiary sets will be collectively broad enough to round out any build, the only other option to masteries I can think of would be the ability to increase the base powerlevel of one (maybe two) tertiary power(s) to that of a primary power.

Some further thoughts.

The main reason a long-recharge, huge effect power concerns me is that it potentially creates a large gap between a team's typical effectiveness and peak effectiveness. I foresee a situation in which everyone saves their ultimate powers for a large boss fight, at which point they all get tossed out at once. Rather than it being a defining moment, I expect it would turn into a flurry of big indistinguishable effects that neuter a genuine challenge. However, it may be possible to resolve this issue by making use of the momentum system. Large effects like this, for those who want them, may require a high momentum cost rather than a long recharge, which would carry with it a need to generate that momentum and the opportunity cost of not using it in other ways.

I was further thinking about the subjective idea that signature powers should be a representation of your primary rather than some other effect. Otherwise, to me it would seem bizarre that your "signature power" is something completely different than what you typically excel at. To that effect it may be better to select one of your existing powers as a signature power. You could add further augments/refinements to it. These could be regular ones (I see I was just ninja'd by Rigel on this idea), but could also be special signature augments that change the fundamental assumptions of the power. Perhaps they beef up the base damage, add a secondary effect, allow you to take the best of two hit checks to become more reliable (which could be especially useful for landing important CC powers), reduce the base recharge, and so on.

I imagine, for example, that if I was playing a fire controller in CoH under such a system, I might choose as my signature power Char if I wanted to become a ST hold specialist, Hot Feet for more damage, Flashfire for more powerful AoE control, or Fire Imps to become a kind of pet master.

When I think of signature powers, I think of the Bankai from Bleach. but then I realize that would ruin game balance and would be nearly impossible to make enough variations to make it seem [i]signature[/i]. And then I also got to thinking that not every character has the same kinds of superpowers or no superpowers at all. I'm sure some people want to play a Punisher-esque character. Some people may want to play a Batman-esque character, or any number of possible origins. So trying to create unique-enough powers for all the different possible combinations would make me whimper like a puppy at the top of the stairs.

Rather, I like the idea of combining Masteries with Momentum.

Pyromantic has basically set forth all the reasons why this would be good so I don't feel like I need to repeat everything he or she already said.

Lets say that we are given a choice of options with each increase in mastery. At the highest tier of mastery, one of the options could be a momentum based ability. This would be our [i]signature[/i] ability. Since there are a finite number of masteries available and since momentum abilities can't be hoarded like long cool-down abilities can, we start off with a known scope of work that won't unbalance content.
Add the ability to customize the appearance, and we can pretty much guarantee that each character in the game will have a signature ability that is nearly unique. (unless we get into Flavor-of-the-Month builds, but it is hard to prevent those from happening, so I wouldn't consider FoM into the argument)

[b]example[/b]
A healer character named Bloodvine wants to masterize in single-target, massive emergency heals; and her friend Nurse Ratchet, another healer, wants to master area heals-over time.
Bloodvine chooses the Lifesurge single-target heal path for her mastery, which gives her a signature ability that not only heals one target to full health instantly, but it adds 25% of that target's total hit points to the target's maximum hit points permanently (this surplus health can't be healed). Visually, Bloodvine chooses a red vine-like tether between her and her assist target. As her momentum grows, the tether gets stronger. She can change targets at any time and she can activate it at any time; but if she doesn't have a full momentum bar it won't have the [i]signature[/i] effect. When she activates her [i]signature[/i] Lifesurge, the vine erupts like burst firehose of blood. If she had chosen singe target heals-over-time, the red vine would throb like a pulsing pumping vein instead. If she had chosen a different appearance, instead of a vine she could have chosen a clear tube of glowing green phosphorescent elixer or perhaps instead of a tether at all, she would have a Heads Up Display putting a target reticle on her ally so she can launch an enormous syringe into him or her.

Since Nurse Ratchet masterized into area of effect heals over time, on the other hand, he chooses Euphoria Cloud ability as his [i]signature[/i] ability. With this he can choose a cloud of cherry blossom petals, daisy flowers, nanobots, syringes, bumblebees, or a whole litany of other swarm-like, surface-covering or volume filling effects. Since he is a cybernetic technological healer, he chooses the nanobot swarm appearance with the shimmering effect of shiny blinking computer chips. Now when his momentum starts increasing, the appearance of a sphere of these nanobots starts growing and growing. He can activate it at any time, but when his momentum reaches full and he triggers it, it explodes into an enormous room-filling cloud of shimmering blinking computer chips that coat every ally and enemy. On allies, the nanobots provide a heal over time of 5% total health per second for the next 20 seconds. On enemies, the nanobots prevent healing up to 5% of their total health per second for the next 20 seconds. You can see the effect as a texture on the characters for the entire time it is active. If he had chosen AoE one-time heals, perhaps it would have put a small robot on everyone that heals 33% the next time that character is less than 66% health. Or maybe his healing mastery is in into AoE damage absorption instead of damage repair and so would choose to cover his allies in a kinetic liquid that absorbs the next 150HP taken.

notears wrote:

Sooo, basicly the idea I had directly above your post, but you have to give up your mastery and you have to pick a prebuilt power?

I guess so. I had been working on my response so long, leaving it up in draft form over lunch, that I guess we must have been thinking the same things at the same time.
You know what they say about great minds. I suppose it must be true of insane minds too now.

Please keep continuing the discussion. I want to point out thst some Mastery powers in each Class make use of Momentum, but not all do. And none of the Mastery Powers are themsevles an extra-activation power. So no extra buttons to activate them. Certainly a "signature power" related to mastery powers may change any of that. It is also possible that a Mastery-related signature power can also be keyed to a particular power in a power set.

notears wrote:

Limiting creativity in a super hero game isn't a strength, I don't care what it is, I mean what if Hellboy couldn't take out that big gun of his just because he was clearly a primarily melee character? Or what if Genji from overwatch couldn't take his blade out just because he was a primarily a ranged character? This genre is made up of wonderful and impossible things, it has archers who can use their bows as melee weapons just as effectively as a ranged weapon, it has mages who are master of both spell and sword, aliens that can cut through steel with their heat vision just as much as they can punch it in half, and this game is clearly trying to let us do that with these alternate secondaries with thing like melee character getting support powers as an alternate, or tankers getting ranged attacks. People keep saying it should be attached to your classification but nobody is saying why it should!! It doesn't serve the genre, and since characters can already get powers outside of their specializations what with tertiary powers being a thing it's not something that going to upset the balance of the game!! You're not even arguing anymore!! You're just saying "Mine is the correct way because mine is the correct way" and then talking as if that was enough to convince me!!

I'm sorry but I don't think you read what I actually wrote with care, and I'd appreciate you neither changing my arguments or saying I'm not making any. I'm certainly not saying that limiting creativity is a strength. I'm saying that there are situations in which providing more options actually results in limiting creativity. While that may seem counterintuitive, I find it true nonetheless.

Let me repeat the question I asked earlier: if your most effective powers do not come from your selection of classification and specification, then why do we introduce classification and specification in the first place? This is [I]not[/I] to my understanding a freeform power selection game. What information we have is that you have the option to take powers outside your classification/specification already by taking tertiaries, but those powers are [I]deliberately reduced in scope compared to their primary/secondary counterparts.[/I] With that in mind, I find it contradictory to now suggest that a character should be able to take a character-defining power outside that scope.

By all means, make Hellboy. Take a melee/defense classification/specification, add a ranged damage tertiary, and select appropriate animations. Nothing I've suggested prevents you from doing that.

I think the thought chain went kind of like this:

If we have signature powers, what should they be?

Well, we have masteries, would signature powers be an extension of them?

But if people had signature powers, should we balance the content to them? would we? Because then it would be too hard to complete without signature powers, and if we didn't balance content to signature powers then the parties would just save their signature powers for the final boss and make it trivial.

That's when we kind of grabbed a hold using momentum. And that's how we got to a [i]signature[/i] power associated with masteries that uses momentum.

I believe the table is still open for other suggestions, but the three of us are all who have been discussing it so far.

If we have 'Signature' powers, I think they should be developed from the base powers of the character.

Be Well!
Fireheart

blacke4dawn wrote:

Hmm, something hit me now.
Signature powers is, as I'd imagine everyone else agreeing with, the one power that makes you stand out among all other supers but I disagree with that is essentially can only come at the later stages of ones career. For most of them, outside of those with "just" combat training, those powers manifest very early one, in many cases it's why they became supers in the first place.
Couple that with the suggestion of building ones own power and it would be something you work on your entire career, not just when you reach the higher levels.

I think you may be on to something. I like this.

Good morning everyone,

When I hear or in this case read "signature power" I think more along the lines of the previous comments about it being used more or being the reason why one became a super. Here's an example.

When?
The "Signature Power" (SP) could be restricted to $level_cap, or 40, but I imagine that it will be selectable from level 1 or whenever the player chooses.

What?
I imagine the player being able to choose from any standard power that is currently available to the character. It could be opened up to any power that the class will eventually gain access to or even any power in the game, but I think it works best to be what is available at the time. However once chosen it is final... except for maybe a respec or a special SP respec that would probably reset the power to the initial level if it's changed.

How it differs?
This power would be exactly like the "standard" power with a couple of exceptions. For instance it does not have the standard enhancement slots. It is enhanced by dedicating XP to it. Each additional enhancement costs exponentially more XP. The number of enhancements is virtually limitless however it may take a thousand or more hours of play to exceed a regular power's enhancements.

Casting restrictions
The SP could be cast as soon as the global cooldown and SP cooldown completes and thus allow the standard and the SP to be in effect at the same time. Unfortunately I think this could be a bit unbalanced. It probably would be best to make the SP castable only if the standard power is not active or in effect and vice versa.

EXAMPLE:
So in the COH world I could play an ICE/EMP controller. At the first level I could chose Block of Ice as an SP and begin refining it immediately. Routing all of my XP to it would effectively keep me at level 1 for an extended period of time, but that's my choice if I wish. I could also wait a few levels until the glorious Ice Patch is available and choose that as my SP. I may or may not chose the standard Block of Ice or Ice Patch in my normal progression. I probably would because two Blocks of Ice or Ice Patches would be very cool.

BENEFITS:
Relatively simple, flexible, and possibly easier to code than many of the other ideas.

OPPORTUNITIES:
Not what others had in mind.
Not cool enough? Maybe we could allow special animation options for an SP? Glowing, pulsing, sparkles, 20% bigger visual, custom sound, etc.
??? Anyone have any thoughts?

"THE TITANS ARE COMING! THE TITANS ARE COMING!"

Dark Ether wrote:

What exactly is a "signature power"? Is it something a character can do that no one else can, or is it something others can do, but not nearly as well as your character?

When people think of your character, what power do they think defines your character? In short, what's your [i]schtick?[/i] That's your signature power.

For example, my character's a sniper. Her signature power would be to simply [i]disappear[/i] and seemingly attack from the aether. In CoH, that was implemented via Devices' Cloaking Device, fully-speed-slotted Hover, and, to a lesser extent, range enhancements on attack powers.

[i]"Dang it, girl, we've got to put a bell on you!"[/i] -- one Synapse TF team lead

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Dark Ether wrote:
What exactly is a "signature power"? Is it something a character can do that no one else can, or is it something others can do, but not nearly as well as your character?
When people think of your character, what power do they think defines your character? In short, what's your schtick? That's your signature power.
For example, my character's a sniper. Her signature power would be to simply disappear and seemingly attack from the aether. In CoH, that was implemented via Devices' Cloaking Device, fully-speed-slotted Hover, and, to a lesser extent, range enhancements on attack powers.
"Dang it, girl, we've got to put a bell on you!" -- one Synapse TF team lead

That's certainly your take on it, and perhaps many others as well, but the rhetorical question stands, in that other people may view this in a different way, maybe other than even the two I surmised most people would answer.

notears wrote:

Well yeah, but hey atleast we apparently gave the devs a lot of ideas what with them telling us to keep discussing this, and we all said our piece of what we wanted too... soooo hey as far as I'm concerned this thread is doing a great job :]

Yes, if the devs are garnering ideas, or feedback to evaluate their own ideas, then that's great.

Some more thoughts. For the sake of ease, let's assume you're playing a commander and that there are some powers equivalent to CoH counterparts. In particular, you have Fire Imps and Char.

You could choose to make Fire Imps your signature power, unlocking a signature augment slot. You can fill that slot with a significant improvement to damage. Or, you can fill it with an augment that allows you to select an additional power for the imps: Healing Flames or Fire Shield (to make them sturdier, which may be useful if your secondary doesn't have much mitigation); Breath of Fire (for more AoE damage); Incinerate (for more ST damage); or a ST Melt Armor (for debuff). Alternatively, you can access Mastery-specific signature augments if you've reached Tier 3 in the appropriate Mastery. For example (using the outline from this [url=https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts/858157]update[/url]), if you have Focus then your imps' attacks receive a further bonus to extending control duration. If you have Oppression then your imps get a large damage bonus against controlled enemies. Or if you have Supremacy--which I'm assuming uses momentum--then your imps generate bonus momentum for you.

Alternatively, you could choose to make Char your signature power. You can increase its base damage, or give it a substantial duration increase. Or, if you have Magnitude, you can significantly increase the chance to land a critical control. If you have Oppression, then Char also applies a resistance debuff. With Restrainment, the effectiveness of Char is further increased against lower-health targets.

There's a lot you can do with this, but it also has the benefit of being something that can start small and manageable, starting with broad effects and creating more specific signature augments/refinements over time.

Quote:

Good morning everyone,

When I hear or in this case read "signature power" I think more along the lines of the previous comments about it being used more or being the reason why one became a super. Here's an example.

When?
The "Signature Power" (SP) could be restricted to $level_cap, or 40, but I imagine that it will be selectable from level 1 or whenever the player chooses.

What?
I imagine the player being able to choose from any standard power that is currently available to the character. It could be opened up to any power that the class will eventually gain access to or even any power in the game, but I think it works best to be what is available at the time. However once chosen it is final... except for maybe a respec or a special SP respec that would probably reset the power to the initial level if it's changed.

How it differs?
This power would be exactly like the "standard" power with a couple of exceptions. For instance it does not have the standard enhancement slots. It is enhanced by dedicating XP to it. Each additional enhancement costs exponentially more XP. The number of enhancements is virtually limitless however it may take a thousand or more hours of play to exceed a regular power's enhancements.

Casting restrictions
The SP could be cast as soon as the global cooldown and SP cooldown completes and thus allow the standard and the SP to be in effect at the same time. Unfortunately I think this could be a bit unbalanced. It probably would be best to make the SP castable only if the standard power is not active or in effect and vice versa.

EXAMPLE:
So in the COH world I could play an ICE/EMP controller. At the first level I could chose Block of Ice as an SP and begin refining it immediately. Routing all of my XP to it would effectively keep me at level 1 for an extended period of time, but that's my choice if I wish. I could also wait a few levels until the glorious Ice Patch is available and choose that as my SP. I may or may not chose the standard Block of Ice or Ice Patch in my normal progression. I probably would because two Blocks of Ice or Ice Patches would be very cool.

BENEFITS:
Relatively simple, flexible, and possibly easier to code than many of the other ideas.

OPPORTUNITIES:
Not what others had in mind.
Not cool enough? Maybe we could allow special animation options for an SP? Glowing, pulsing, sparkles, 20% bigger visual, custom sound, etc.
??? Anyone have any thoughts?

"THE TITANS ARE COMING! THE TITANS ARE COMING!"

I like the idea of having it from level 1 and being able to level it up with XP even at the expense of classically leveling up to 2.

As for being able to customize it, how to make it their own, it makes me think of Cain Marko/Juggernaut and Colossus/Juggernaut during Fear Itself. They both had the same powers available to them, but manifested differently in one especially significant way. Cain Marko as Juggernaut was an unstoppable brawler but slow moving. Similarly, Colossus also became unstoppable, except he was able to reach a smokin' 600 MPH and pushed Cain Marko back miles when he was Kuurth. And due to his impressive speed, Colossus also demonstrated that he had trouble slowing down/stopping. For me, this illustrates how two players could have the "same" signature power of being unstoppable, but due to some measure of customizability (-/+ movement speed, duration of signature [indefinite unstoppableness or just intervals], magnitude of signature [just HOW unstoppable], maybe even negative elements [turn speed reduced], etc), they're expressed in those different ways that add distinctive flavor.

Cobalt Azurean wrote:

I like the idea of having it from level 1 and being able to level it up with XP even at the expense of classically leveling up to 2.
As for being able to customize it, how to make it their own, it makes me think of Cain Marko/Juggernaut and Colossus/Juggernaut during Fear Itself. They both had the same powers available to them, but manifested differently in one especially significant way. Cain Marko as Juggernaut was an unstoppable brawler but slow moving. Similarly, Colossus also became unstoppable, except he was able to reach a smokin' 600 MPH and pushed Cain Marko back miles when he was Kuurth. And due to his impressive speed, Colossus also demonstrated that he had trouble slowing down/stopping. For me, this illustrates how two players could have the "same" signature power of being unstoppable, but due to some measure of customizability (-/+ movement speed, duration of signature [indefinite unstoppableness or just intervals], magnitude of signature [just HOW unstoppable], maybe even negative elements [turn speed reduced], etc), they're expressed in those different ways that add distinctive flavor.

I have additional ideas. Some are along these same lines. I do think the enhancements available could be opened up to one or more additional power effects either primary or secondary. Of course the XP required should be commensurate with the power effect. Additional effects could be possible at an exponential cost. So for my COH Ice/Emp I could have Block of Ice for my SP that I have enhanced with dark magic to pull lifeforce from the enemy trapped inside, or perhaps I have learned to make my ice acidic and it does damage over time. Even fire should be possible. In a story sense I would have to argue that the heat removed to create the ice was relocated inside of the enemy... There is some inherent trade off because XP used to add effects effectively takes away from XP used to add enhancements. In addition the next enhancement costs exponentially more than it would have without the extra power effect.

OTHER BENEFITS:
The various methods we have discussed so far are probably not mutually exclusive.
It should be possible to add this functionality well after release, and I would recommend that for either system anyway.

OPPORTUNITIES:
Any of these systems could create power imbalance, but if our enemies have the same capabilities... Well that may create more dev work... or... if it was randomized could make for some interesting fights. An enemy gang could look easy, but if they happen to have the right SPs and whatnot, they become much more deadly. I think this adds some uncertainty which could be good. In real life you don't know exactly what's going to happen or what people are capable of. Isn't that what makes for a great sporting event? Not knowing with certainty who's going to wIn?

"THE TITANS ARE COMING! THE TITANS ARE COMING!"

EDIT: tone
EDIT: spelling

I don't think it's a great idea to have a exp diversion to fuel SP development. I think it should be something for late game/ end game development. IE when there is nothing else to spend exp on then you put it towards enhancing the SP. There is a possibility for confusion to new players. What happens to the player that devotes all their exp to SP and doesn't even level up into new content. Their view of the game would be quite the contrast to what COH was. It's also a divergent concept from standard powers and should not be introduced at the same time as those powers. Currently the plan is to release with the first 35 levels and work up to 50 via updates. 35 is therefore the earliest SP powers should be introduced and since Tannim seems to imply this isn't a flushed out "launch item" probably 40 or 50 is a better place to introduce this. It's a good end game side leveling project for players.

I also think that using momentum as a driver for activating the signature power is not a great idea. It's been stated that some players' power sets will actively build and use momentum while other power sets may not. So, it my be very easy for a tank to build momentum but a defender may have more difficulty and thus a signature power may never be usable.

I think picking a power directly from the primary or secondary power set as a SP, and then allowing the user to add more slots to it, is a good idea. As an example take Flashing Steel. It's a short range melee cone from the Katana power set.(Katana is my wheelhouse, I'll reference it always.) As a base power it's not terribly effective for DPS/DPA even fully slotted in COH but, it does have an AOE. In COT, I could aug-mod that with a cone range as well as a standard damage and accuracy. I can, through power customization, add a wind effect that rips off the blade as it flashes through the air. The aesthetic is then that my character swings the blade through the air so fast it creates a damaging vortex of air. That is just the base power. If I select that as my signature power I could further aug-mod it with defense debuffs and more damage and cone range or add a vampiric effect or KD. I am assuming that a signature power can be Aug-modded more broadly than a standard power to give it a more interesting effects worthy of being "Signature." Now when I use Flashing Steel it creates a wave of slashing wind that, knocks down, debuffs, or steals health. Making a ho-hum power something quite functional and unique. Mixed with def debuff this power allows me to apply a def debuff to a larger group at once which means I miss less and/or do more damage via more frequent crits. Mixed with KD I now have a soft control power. Personally, I'd use this to break up the alpha by knocking half the group down. Mixed with a vampiric effect it becomes a power that makes my character last longer in a fight.

Another good power to Signature-ize would be something like Divine Avalanche. DA provides a defense buff to the player but deals minor damage and is slow. It was typically used to hold LOTG 7.5% global defense IO but, could be additionally slotted for recharge, defense, damage, and accuracy. I would take a power like that and aug-mod for defense as the base rate was rather low and Dmg/Acc/Rech. I could then stack that short DA defense buff without sacrificing overall DPS or having to balance it to provide moderate defense and mild damage. It's not as "flashy" as the Flashing Steel example but in terms of min/maxing a build could take a relatively weak power and provide an extraordinary amount functionality.

A more basic approach would be to take a T9 power like Nova and "slot the hell out of it." Rather than give it unique mods or effects it'd be the equivalent of 6 slotting for damage and 3 slotting for rech/acc each. Effectively becoming a mega nuke. If standard nuke doesn't do it you can shout something awful like, "That's was only 50% of my power! This is ONEHUNDREDPERCENT!!!!!!!!" *boom*

In writing this I wonder if taking a existing power and SPing it would it make sense to leave the root power also available to the player. IE I'd have FS and then I would also have SigFS with a gold background on the icon. Maybe game breaking to give a energy blaster two nukes and reserves to recover all the lost endurance.

As some have mentioned, I envisioned 'signature powers' separate from 'mastery powers'. The ladder being top-level pre-fabbed powers representing the pinnacle of a particular power class/category, and the earlier, perhaps being at the same level, intended to be a single power who's abilities and animation is crafted from enough selectable options so the end result feels as exclusive or unique as possible.

Let's say as a character reaches the level where they can start selecting a mastery, the ability to create a signature power also becomes available. Within the power builder, power template tables becomes available depending on my primary power class/category. A power 'template' breaks down a power by four attributes: animation type (melee/ranged/AoE), damage type (direct/element/buff/debuff/healing), damage type #2 (i.e. secondary effects like DoT/buff/debuff/healing), and texture/color palette. If my primary power was 'laser blasting', I would have a list of, say, 10 unique animations plus all globally available laser-type animations to choose from, then select my other attributes. If I am at mastery level for my secondary power at time of creation, then I would have two power tables to choose from, allowing me to mix-and-match animations and attributes. A couple of options on each table could only be available if that power was your selected primary. Aside from the two power tables from my primary and secondary power classes, a third table could result from each unique primary/secondary combination. Perhaps a smaller table of say 5 unique animations. If travel powers are categorized separately, then an additional power template to include those.

These options all become multipliers of each other and wouldn't necessarily need a lot of tables to create huge variety of unique combinations, which is the goal here, to be unique and stand out.

As far as power output and cool-down times, IMO I'd keep it on par with mastery powers level but allow it to be created at the first availability of masteries, and independent of the normal SP/XP/Whatever cost, as the power is supposed to be a part of the character's identity. Perhaps put the signature power's strength multiplier on a curve scale, so at creation, it is on par with (or just under) a typical mastery skill, but ramps up quicker as you approach max skill making it more powerful at whatever level cap.

Just my thoughts :)

Commander J wrote:

blacke4dawn wrote:
Though on a more general note, if we are going to take an existing power to make SP then I think that any power should be usable, not just from Primary and Secondary.
IMO primary and secondary power choices NEED to be considered in SP creation. A super-strength melee fighter with healing factor shouldn't suddenly have access to mind control or gravity powers... I would think.

Regardless of if they include tertiaries among the selection of SP-possible powers the kind of combination you are against there will be possible.

The thing is that "super strength" and "gravity" are purely aesthetic choices in this regard, "mind control" is a bit iffy to classify in this regard but lean much more towards aesthetic than mechanic. Limiting options here based upon aesthetic selection made towards primary and secondary is imo asinine. Besides, afaik tertiary power pool options will be so broad that they will include the types of powers that the primary and secondary pools are centered around, so why wouldn't I at least be able to take those tertiaries to make an SP out of.

Safehouse wrote:

I'm not sure which is better, but I did get a thought from combining the two. You could work to streamline and improve as many powers as you would like. HOWEVER, there's a diminishing return on it. If you improve multiple powers, the improvement to any one individual power won't be as great as if you choose ONE power and really boost it up. You can have one ridiculously powerful move, OR a handful of improved moves that maybe have things like "reduced cooldown time" (more frequent use capability), "increased damage," "reduced endurance cost," or even side effects like a debuff, or a DoT.

This is essentially what I think it should be, summed up nicely.

Grimfox wrote:

I agree with blacke4dawn that any power is a valid option for use as a SP because of aesthetic decoupling. Within a primary set you could very reasonably expect that a player could customize a power to have a multitude of appearances. A character could kick fire and ice from each foot and shoot dark miasma and beams of light from his hands while having a psionic lance erupt from his forehead. There's nothing to say that the "fire blaster" type character couldn't take a punching power from a tertiary pool customize if to be a flaming eagle on his fist and select that as his SP.

I can play devil's advocate and argue both directions really. We want as many options available as possible to up the uniqueness of each character. On one hand, I'd love to have every power animation available (why not). On the other, I like it more when choices during character development matter.

Mixing and matching power styles based on specific combinations of primary/secondary/tertiary choices would still allow a huge variety of combos like flaming punches that heal an ally or purple thorny vines flying from your bum to rez a teammate, but if that is what you want, then we should work towards that goal. I worry that having everything at your disposal will diminish creativity and uniqueness in the long run. What I see happening (and what I've seen happen) is that players will find the one attribute combo they really like, reuse the concept on other characters and other players discover that 'one optimal combo' - sure animations and color choices will vary but you'll see teams of chars running around in Trial/TF scenarios with similar high-damage AoE attacks that stun or immobilize or whatever that perfect combo ends up being. Of course not everyone will, but it still diminishes overall uniqueness and lends more to 'cookie-cutter' character templates.

The aspect I liked in CoX is that you're not just building a human weapon, you are building a personality, a back story with power origins and life choices that led the character to where they became a hero or villain. Restricting choice to a small degree encourages keeping to your character's theme. It also acts as a carrot to lure you and get you excited about trying new power choices and combos on new characters, thus extending creative character development and replay value. In CoX I had six truly unique characters across five servers. I worry if a character's best or favorite move is limitless in design, the effective 'fun value' (for me) would end at half that roster. Now if CoT limits us to only 2-3 chars then I take everything that I've said back. In summary (regardless of the detail), the more we can encourage unique choice paths, the more unique and genuine our characters are going to feel, and that is the one thing I loved about CoX the most.

Precisely. It's not about limiting for the sake of limiting, it's about constructing choices and discovering new paths to unique options. In my initial thought I described separate hidden sets of power templates that are discovered only when certain other power combination choices were made. I want as many options as the devs have the time and creativity to make :)

notears wrote:

Sounds like a way to hamper creativity for no good reason.... also? Wrong place, this is the "Our version of end game character choice" Thread... you wanna talk about this? Make another thread.

Doctor Tyche wrote:

Signature Powers has been a topic for awhile. But as we are not launching at level cap, it's not fully developed. I, for one, would love to hear everyone's ideas.

I know you started this thread notears. I thought the conversation was about Epic Power Pool Alternatives, with Signature powers being one of them. Granted it might not have been where you were going initally, but you've generated a valuable conversation. At this point it's less the details and moreso the concepts we're bouncing around.

I've been tracking the thread and just want to give a couple of bits of advice.

Try not to think about what a power may look like. The aesthetics are only really limited by a loose-knit list of guidelines based on a power set's mechanical theme. Such as the oft given example of Burning using damge over time as its main mechanic and the aesthetics are only limited to "stuff that burns" in probably the loosest of definitions of the term.

Also try not to imply a reason for why a character may or may not have a power. Even if a 16 year old 'fire' wielding hero gains a powerful non-burning power late in their levels. It is no more necessary to attempt to limit this type choice than a gravity and thermal radiation controlling hero ends up with mental powers late in their levels. Or getting the ability to create a spirit pet even after the "level cap". Leave such reasonings to the player (much less than trying to sort the reasoning of aesthetics a player might choose).

Now, as to taking a power from a set and improving it to be the "signature power" of the hero, the system already provides the method of improving powers. Gaining xp gives levels, levels can earn sockets which the player can assign to a given power.
Sockets can be fitted with Augments which improves what the power does or possibly add something new to it. Eventually, Augments can be had which provide Refinement Sockets into which Refinements can be placed. Refinements improve how a power does what it does such as improving accuracy or recharge. But Refs can also change thins such as possibly giving an area cone effect to a single targrt power.

Eventually there will be sets of Augs and Refs which will provide additional bonuses to that power (we are avoidingn globa bonuses as much as possible). It is not out of the realm of possibiity of s unique Aug / Ref set which can only be used once on an entir character giving a particular power unique benefits.

Taking thisna step further, a player may decide most of their powers fall into a particualr aesthic theme (most of my burning powers are yellowish flame) but take one particualr power and make it white lightning. In effect, the player designsted their character's signature power by their choice in plassignjng sockets, investing in thiose sockets, and giving it a distinctive appearance apart from the rest of their powers.

Since this is all possible, I'm looking at what would provide something further unique to build out the character, possibly one of several methods of horizontal advancement systems for post 50 play.

One of the ideas for signature powers was for players to "build" a power from scratch, starting with borad categories such as attack or protection or summoning and have myriad of paths each can take to make the power, which given how Augs and Refs can change powers, this power may not need them or need special versions only available for this type of power.

But I'm also particualrly keen on the idea of expanding upon Mastery powers. For one, as I said, they define the character's ability to perform their role. But the system doesn't do much else once the player finishes their selection of Mastery powers. Having something new to do with Mastery powers as a late / end game horizontal progression system intrigues me.

Another mention was on mechanic limite and benefits to similar sets providing distinction. This is something aleady being done within the set mechanics themselves. Because powers have to be designed agnostic to aesthetics, mechanics provide the distinction between sets.

Really though, there is something more fundamental to grasp. Is a signature power something a chaeacter uses on a regular basis being the "defining" move the character commonly uses? Or is a signature power that unique ability used in partcularly tactful moments?

For some, going back to the old game, it is the latter. As was stated ealier upthread, players were looking to certain npcs and their unique powers and wanted something similar for their own.

That doesn't mean we must hold to the same idea for our game, but it is appealing to me at least.

Thank you Tannim222, very valuable insight.

Tannim did point out that we have two topics of discussion going on here simultaneously.

We started the thread talking about Epic Powers, a top-level power choice. Doctor Tyche mentioned that MWM has been discussing signature powers. He didn't say they were top-level, but he didn't have to since it was in the thread about top-level epic powers.

The discussion of signature powers then lead to some really good discussion about what is a signature power, and that discussion started entertaining ideas about non-top-level powers. It looked like some of us were still discussing only epic powers and some of us were discussing signature powers. There is room to have signature powers be epic powers, but they don't have to be.

The use of masteries and assigning augment slots as we level up have a build-as-you-go flavour to them. So I see less of a demand for a build-as-you-go signature power. Not that it wouldn't be cool, but from a game design perspective, we already have the ability to make any of our abilities special in both power and look.

This leads us back to a more Epic style signature power. I still believe that the choice of epic power should be limited to the class and masteries of a character. This way not every character in the whole world is choosing from the same set of options, and thus we wouldn't have 90% of the player base all choosing the same three like we did in CoX.

I also believe the earlier thoughts about epic powers being unbalancing was a very insightful warning. Because I know if I had an epic power I could activate whenever I wanted to, I would wait until the boss to unload it. And if everyone in the group does the same, then we have to build the boss encounted under the assumption that the entire party will be unleashing epic powers at it. That makes the epic powers wholly un-epic and it makes the boss encounter far too difficult for people who have their epic powers on cooldown. Thus the best solution I have seen is to assign epic powers to momentum. Since momentum gain is less predicable and a strategic resource, it makes Epic powers less wrote. So when someone lets off an Epic momentum-fueled mastery power it is a special thing.

Actually, the idea of Momentum-fueled Epic powers associated with a character's class choice already exists in MMORPG. Its known as a [i]limit-break[/i] in FFXIV.
[youtube]-e2mYic_qck[/youtube]

Even though we came to it by our own route, it is assuring to know that another development team of a very successful game and franchise also came to the same conclusions.

notears wrote:

JulesB wrote:
notears wrote:
Commander J wrote:
Precisely. It's not about limiting for the sake of limiting, it's about constructing choices and discovering new paths to unique options. In my initial thought I described separate hidden sets of power templates that are discovered only when certain other power combination choices were made. I want as many options as the devs have the time and creativity to make :)
notears wrote:
Sounds like a way to hamper creativity for no good reason.... also? Wrong place, this is the "Our version of end game character choice" Thread... you wanna talk about this? Make another thread.
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Signature Powers has been a topic for awhile. But as we are not launching at level cap, it's not fully developed. I, for one, would love to hear everyone's ideas.
I know you started this thread notears. I thought the conversation was about Epic Power Pool Alternatives, with Signature powers being one of them. Granted it might not have been where you were going initally, but you've generated a valuable conversation. At this point it's less the details and moreso the concepts we're bouncing around.
Right right, point taken... not on the limiting not for the sake of limiting thing but your point about my comment telling you you're out of place. That was uncalled for on my part and I do apologize. You're whole thing about premade themes that you can't click away from? That's like saying you have to use premade costumes... I mean I know you feel like it would be more realistic, but... supers isn't about realism... it's about fantasy... if you want realism you need to look at capepunk, not supers... Also? This is meant to be a spiritual successor to CoX, and CoX? Had a lot of creativity to it, heck people made ATs within other ATs, like blappers or offenders. People are already excited about decouplization, and to take that away is like a major cockblock right now. People want this.... a lot of people want this... they like the idea of completely being able to choose how there power looks and changing how their powers look as they level up and explore the game. People want to be the ones who decide how their powers look like, not the game.
Ummm... no....
No one wants premade costumes, no one's talking about super-realism, and no one is dissing decouplization. Think you missed the point.
Well commander J was, and I was replying to him.

Nope, neither was I....

Tannim222,

Thanks for providing some feedback to help guide the discussion. I find it fascinating to get some tidbits on systems like augments/refinements, and hearing some of the potential you've already considered in allowing players to customize powers (such as adding a cone effect) further convinces me the game will be very fun to play. When I think "signature powers" I feel like you've already covered a lot of the ground we could in the sense of allowing players to distinguish themselves in many mechanical and aesthetic ways.

It is hard to know how this discussion might fit in the grander scheme when we have only a vague sense of how many powers a character has, how masteries work, and what needs a player will have at end levels. However, I have a suggestion for something and would appreciate further feedback from you on whether this is in the direction you're thinking.

Instead of "signature powers" per se, a character can learn epic powers. As a horizontal progression system, you can continue to learn several epic powers. However, any time you use an epic power, it leads to a global cooldown on all your epic powers. All classifications may get to choose from the same selection, but what ties them specifically to you is that you must choose an activation condition corresponding to one of your masteries, in addition to it simply being off cooldown.

Let me speculate on some potential activation conditions for each mastery based on the primer on masteries for Commanders:
[list][*]Magnitude: You may activate your epic power on a target for a few seconds after a critical control lands on it.
[*]Oppression: Any time an enemy is defeated while having one of your control effects on it, you may activate your epic power for a few seconds.
[*]Focus: Have a single control effect last a certain length of time (looking at the benefits described in the article, this would happen when your allies gang up on the enemy to extend your control's duration.)
[*]Restrainment: Land a control on a target below a certain health.
[*]Supremacy: Build up a certain amount of momentum. (I'm assuming Supremacy works on that basis.)[/list]

Let me further speculate on how this might work for a hypothetical Commander. I will include the player's aesthetic motivation behind these choices to illustrate how the system might be used, but not to suggest any restrictions. This Commander, Freezie McFreezer, has selected "freezing control" as a primary powerset. This set includes slows as a secondary effect, and in Freezie's case, this is because the player has chosen a cold aesthetic for most powers. His secondary powerset is "primal manipulation," a buffing/debuffing set which produces greater effects when there are defeated foes nearby; Freezie manifests this aesthetically as drawing energy from the life force of enemies frozen to death. Freezie has reached level 50, and gets to select his first epic power. Freezie decides to select [I]Massive Blast[/I] as that power, which does a high amount of ST damage. Because Freezie has previously selected the Magnitude Mastery, he decides to attach [I]Massive Blast[/I] to that. From now on, whenever he lands a critical control on a target, he can follow it with [I]Massive Blast[/I] for significant damage. Aesthetically, this is because Freezie's critical control has put a deep freeze on the target, and he can shatter it to hit it hard. Because [I]Massive Blast[/I] has a 1-minute cooldown, he won't be able to use it (or any other epic powers) for one minute, even if he lands more critical controls.

After some more adventures, Freezie has a chance to learn another epic power. He selects [I]Epic Summon[/I] which allows him to summon a customized minion. Freezie also has a tier in the Oppression Mastery, and attaches this power to it. Now when Freezie has a control effect on an enemy when it is defeated, he may use [I]Epic Summon[/I]. Aesthetically, this is because he can draw out the life force of enemies he has frozen before they died, and he designs the summoned minion as an undead shadow-like creature. [I]Epic Summon[/I] is quite strong and carries a 5-minute cooldown. Now when Freezie uses this power, he will not be able to activate [I]Massive Blast[/I] or [I]Epic Summon[/I] until the epic power cooldown wears off 5 minutes later.

My theory behind this idea is to allow players all to choose from a single pool of powers--reducing design work and allowing for more options for players--while tying epic powers to Masteries to ensure that they play differently for each character and requiring more tactical focus and awareness than simply waiting for your big bad power to recharge. As it has a shared cooldown, characters will benefit from having more epic powers in that it will be easier to find opportunities to activate them and will have more options, but there won't be a significant power disparity between a character with one epic and a character with several.

Ok, I rather like the direction this went to. Allow me to posit a concept for you all based on what has been discussed. Keep in mind this is, for now, only 'talk' and nothing is guaranteed.

At level cap (50), a player may choose to designate xp toward taking an existing power and adding Epic effects turning it into a Signature Power.

Diverted xp allows a player to designate any power of their character to receive (a) Signature Power Socket(s). Into which once earned, Signature Power Augments may be placed.

Signature Power Augments will provid an Epic Effect; an effect produced based on conditions met through use of Mastery Powers. As there are a num er of posible combinations of Mastery Powers, there may be one or more set of consitions as well as different selectable SPAs with different Epic Effects which may require further investment through diverted xp to improve the SPA.

Upon the consitions being met, once the power is activated (or if already active such as toggles or passives), the Epic Effect is triggered. Once triggered the Epic Effect has its own unique cool down separate from the basr power's cool down.

Tannim222 wrote:

Ok, I rather like the direction this went to. Allow me to posit a concept for you all based on what has been discussed. Keep in mind this is, for now, only 'talk' and nothing is guaranteed.
At level cap (50), a player may choose to designate xp toward taking an existing power and adding Epic effects turning it into a Signature Power.
Diverted xp allows a player to designate any power of their character to receive (a) Signature Power Socket(s). Into which once earned, Signature Power Augments may be placed.
Signature Power Augments will provid an Epic Effect; an effect produced based on conditions met through use of Mastery Powers. As there are a num er of posible combinations of Mastery Powers, there may be one or more set of consitions as well as different selectable SPAs with different Epic Effects which may require further investment through diverted xp to improve the SPA.
Upon the consitions being met, once the power is activated (or if already active such as toggles or passives), the Epic Effect is triggered. Once triggered the Epic Effect has its own unique cool down separate from the basr power's cool down.

Could there be signature power augment related missions/content to do to get those augments maybe? I know players are always hungry for more content, but that might be a good idea. Not that you'd have to do any one type of content to get the XP, just that there might be post-cap content that would get you XP and maybe have a chance (or a better chance than normal) to get the components and raw materials needed to make such objects as you'd then want.

Of course, any discussion like this also leads to "will any of the possible Signature Power options end up being totally OP when slotted with the right Augments and Epic effects? You'd need to keep an eye on that.