Maybe this seems like a bit of an obvious idea, but it wasn't in City of Heroes, so I feel like it should be mentioned at some point. Basically, does anybody else remember the vast number of weapons that were available back in CoH? The titan weapons, swords, axes, pistols, rifles, claws, and I'm sure there's others I'm forgetting.
The problem, for me, is that they just completely vanished when not in use. I had a half-demon villain with what was basically the buster sword, but as soon as combat ended, she'd put it away and it'd disappear. I know this was just a thing that happened due to engine limitations (most likely, anyways) but I still wish that I'd had the option of it doing something else; even just staying stuck to the back would have been better to me.
So, I'm suggesting something of a "sheathing" system. Different positions on the body where you can sheathe or holster your weapon, or the ability to pull the weapon out of the ether. Let me give some examples of my thought process here.
Fiendcaller is an Operator that normally relies on his demonic minions doing the work for him. however, ever the pragmatist, he keeps a revolver on his person, just in case. When he's wearing his classic trenchcoat he wears a shoulder holster that hides it from casual observation, thought when the coat is off it's obvious, so he just keeps it on a hip holster.
The Mirror Knight carries with him a shield that can reflect projectiles back at targets during combat if he times it right, but when he's not actively fighting, his player can decide between one of two spots for the shield; either it can stay on his arm, where it's bulky but ready to use, or he can place it on his back, out of the way. This isn't even getting into his sword, which could be at his hip, across the small of his back, or over the shoulder.
Xenocraft, a Tinker hero specialized in the use of alien technology, has a variety of weapons she likes to use, and swaps between them on the fly; a laser rifle, a sonic pistol, a plasma sword, and a graviton burst emitter. Rather than carry all her gear with her, she teleports it in; any time she wants to swap a weapon, her intelligent armor system warps in the weapon she specifies in a purple flash.
These are just a few examples that occurred to me within a few minutes of getting this idea, and they'd all theoretically work off the same system; hooking the weapon somewhere up to the body when they aren't in use, making it invisible or visible at the user's choice, and determining the draw animation. Hopefully it's workable.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
Yeah I remember people periodically suggesting the idea for "sheathing" weapons back on the CoH forums so this certainly seems like something they might be able to finally address in CoT at some point.
Maybe they could come up with a handful of "hardpoints" on the character model that would serve as targets for animations whenever weapons are drawn or sheathed. So for example if I choose my left hip as a target point then whenever I activate a "weapon" power it would show my character pulling it from a holster/sheath located on my left hip. If I choose my back as the target point then any animations would start and end there. These hardpoints could be selected using the Avatar Builder.
But keep in mind this hardpoint idea is just a customization for the animations - the weapons involved would still "vanish" like they did before. The problem with being able to "store" items on character bodies is that you'd have to come up with a huge number of what would amount to being specialized costume items that are based on whether you have specific powers slotted or not. So once they figured out how to link say a physical sword carried on your back to whether or not you have a sword power in your power tray then they'd have to implement all the other possible places you could "carry" a sword (such as on either hip or even either hand). They'd have to do that for virtually every "item based" combat power. Not saying it'd be impossible - but it would be challenging to say the least.
One compromise they might come up with is they might allow people to have say permanent swords "stored" on their bodies but they might limit it to always being on your waist. By restricting something like that to one single place on the body it would greatly simplify the number of costume items and/or animations they would have to come up with. The downside of course is that you would have to accept the limitation that you could only have swords attached to your waist like that. This is what many MMO games like ESO have done - they let you have any kind of sword you want in your left or right hand but when they are sheathed they are always attached to your respective left or right hip; in ESO's case there are no other options such as strapping them over your back.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I remember reading (or maybe it was in the Q+A they did a while back) that a goal for animations that have weapons is to allow for them to be worn when not in use and drawn for use. Then again, I could be wrong.
Ah ... the "where my quiver?" question for (Trick) Archery.
Easiest way to do this is a duo form sheath/holster/quiver, which can be either empty or occupied with the weapon in question. That way the costume element has two states ... either with the weapon in it, or empty. Animation then just has to "wave the hand(s)" in the general direction of the sheath/holster/quiver to make the weapon "disappear" from the sheath/holster/quiver and "appear" in the hand, thereby changing the state of the sheath/holster/quiver from occupied to empty. Done right, it would offer the ILLUSION of drawing the object out of the sheath/holster/quiver without actually worrying about aligning objects and preventing clipping issues. All you really need is a "good enough" illusion of performing the draw action. We don't need cinematic level fidelity here for this action, and "Good Enough" should certainly be adequate.
Just affix the sheath/holster/quiver to a specific set of hardpoints on the body model, set up the necessary "hand wave" animations to interact with those hardpoints, and you're good. Where should those hardpoints be?
[list][*]Back (angled left/right/vertical)
[*]Shoulder/Chest (front)
[*]Upper Arm (sides)
[*]Under Armpit (sides)
[*]Chest (center) (think [url=http://i.imgur.com/CemQHHi.jpg]slung P90[/url] or [url=http://49.media.tumblr.com/a72ef120f5d06147a8c3d060d2334615/tumblr_mjrxajgKAI1qfw572o9_400.gif]breast dagger[/url] if it helps)
[*]Waist (spine, sides, front)
[*]Thigh (sides and inner)
[*]Lower Leg (calf or boot)[/list]
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I think it's always been a "goal" (even back from the CoH days) and it definitely would be nice to have.
While Redlynne wrote out a nice list of potential "hardpoints" on the body having that many is really going to be the main problem here: spending the time to create all the sheaths/holsters and animations for ALL the possible weapons for ALL those possible attachment points is simply prohibitive even if our Devs had all the time and money in the world to do it.
Again the compromise of having much fewer (or maybe only one) main sheath/holster point on the body would likely be a workable start to all this.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
An additional consideration would be cross/strong draw. That is, if you are right-handed, you where a sword on the left hip and draw it across your body. Mainly because most swords are too long to draw from the right side. (the roman gladius a notable acception and worn on the right side) OTOH, a pistol is usually worn on the 'strong' side. Of course you can crossdraw a pistol, too. Or pull it from the small of the back. Heh. If you watch the original Highlander movie, and some of the series, it's apparently possible to carry a katana in a shoulder holster. :)
My point being, it's not just 'where' you put it, you also have to determine with which hand you draw it. This starts to become a lot of animations vey quickly. And yes, I understand they don't have to be 'perfect.' But if we end up saying 'meh, I guess I can justify that to myself, somehow.' because it's so generic, we might as well just suspend our disbelief enough to have the stupid thing disappear when we're done with it.
Now, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here. I would love a realistic un-sheathe/re-sheathe animation for weapons. And I want to wear my weapons when I'm not using them. I'm hoping secretly that a Dev will come on and say. "No. We hate vanishing weapons, too. We are spending the time to faithfully represent the deploying of every single weapon variety."
Lothic, I meant that it was something the devs were specifically trying to include, as in short list for launch. But I just can't find where I saw it. The way I remember it was they intended to make weapons affix to certain points on a figure dependent of the weapon type. So a bow and quiver, big sword/axe/club and machine gun would rest on the back while smaller hand weapons or hand guns would be hip weapons. The intention would be to eventually allow for more options of weapon placement later.
Again....this is purely from memory and its entirely possible I am wrong.
I actually also recall that the MWM Devs specifically mentioned they want to do something about this for CoT. I wasn't trying to imply that this was just a "generic goal" that all Devs try to do for all games.
But even if the Devs here make it a launch day priority I'm still going to have to suspect that it'll be a relatively hard goal to achieve simply from the point of view that if they are going to do it "right" they will have to include a large number of sheaths/holsters and a large number of associated animations regardless if those animations are done "perfectly" or if they are mostly approximations to save time/effort.
I predict that if we do get any kind of implementation of this on launch day that it will be relatively limited and leave out some various combinations of sheath/holster placement that somebody out there really wanted but will be S.O.L. for. I guess all I'm saying is that if you're one of the people who really wanted something very specific out of this back in CoH then I wouldn't get my hopes raised up too much, at least for launch day at any rate.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Weirdly enough, I was just creating a new toon concept on Paragon Chat that includes a Titan weapon and I'm thinking of how can I pull this off somewhat realistically. So I took a break and this post is here. I agree with what's been said so far except for Huge weapons. I understand the need to compromise to reduce or eliminate dev workload but shouldn't there be a few hard exceptions?
I guess I could explain how I can present an eight foot long by one foot wide slab of 3/8 inch steel seemingly out of nowhere with magic or science but it just doesn't seem right. Now I understand why the huge weapons were always resting on the anime characters shoulders. And a 'light fifty' and a Stinger, etc.
But, the only real problem that I had with CoX in regards to holstering was when I pulled a gun and heard that distinctive 'shhiiiink!' sound of a sword being drawn. I cringed every time.
Yeah one would hope that no matter how much time and effort they get to spend on this that they would be able to come up with at least 3 or 4 stock sounds that might fit with the weapon in question a little better than a "gun sounding like a sword".
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Whew.... glad I'm not losing my memory.
I agree that to do an extensive ,by that I don't necessarily mean multiple animations but instead more in terms of highly defined animations, will be difficult to say the least.
I do think there are a lot of ways they could make this easier on themselves from an animation aspect. Certain 'cheats' could be utilized, stuff like perspective manipulation, limited variety in hilts and handles, limited styles of holsters or sheaths ect.
Regardless, this is one of those features that I personally consider nice to have but not by any means a requirement for my enjoyment.
On a side note I was channel-surfing recently and came upon a film called The Immortals.
In it, the hero found a magic bow and when he pulled the string a magic arrow just appeared.
It made me smile.
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
On the subject of hardpoints, I think a few that can go a long way in versatility for character concepts would be:
- Over the right shoulder
- Over the left shoulder
- Right hip (can double as the small of the back if animated right)
- Left hip
- Invisible
Add in the option to have a shader effect flare when the weapon is drawn (To represent summoning via tech or magic or something else) and that should cover, like, 90% of weapon placement concepts.An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
[img]http://forum.schizophrenia.com/uploads/default/1949/b1f466ee8ec3fa9a.jpg[/img]
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Firstly I'll just get this out of the way: I'd rather any day that swords on characters that carry them, be carrying them in a scabbard on the front or side. The back is one of the worst places in real life to place any blade. Generally it takes a lot more time and more movements to get a sword out of the scabbard and people have made videos to prove that, especially with longer blades. Just as an example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IocQ_DZVAU0 .
The guy tries to pull sword(this case a katana) out of the scabbard, and finds it very difficult to do so. He also mentioned cases in Hollywood where the sword user draws a weapon in such a way. It's always done as the camera cuts away from the user.
I get that it's meant to be a game, hell if it wasn't no one would want to use a melee weapon. And I get people would want the cool oversized sword on the back or the two katanas(though I actually can't stand the weapon's invasiveness in mods). But I would definitely want the option to have weapons in a more realistic location on my characters costumes.
I also remember another funny issue with sword weapons in city of heroes. Notice how when they draw the weapons, they never truly draw it all the way out of the invisible scabbard? They just kind of grab it as if it simply detached from the back.
I realized something today(5/8/2014) that many MMORPG players, are not like us who enjoyed CoX. They enjoy repetitiveness and predictability, rather then unpredictability. We on the other hand enjoy unpredictability and variety.
Don't mean to derail but....
[Youtube]X6QSu1EolCI[/youtube]
Full physics lesson on why such huge swords don't work. Ooook back on topic I guess.
For huge weapons, if it is on the back, I'd say don't use a scabbard.
I realized something today(5/8/2014) that many MMORPG players, are not like us who enjoyed CoX. They enjoy repetitiveness and predictability, rather then unpredictability. We on the other hand enjoy unpredictability and variety.
I'll just throw out the "standard boilerplate" that trying to make a real life physics argument against something that exists in a superhero-based MMORPG is not going to get you very far. Characters who can magically fly and throw battleships around can probably wield "buster swords" without much trouble. ;)
Beyond that I'd generally agree that putting one of those buster-style anime/manga swords into a full scabbard is excessively pointless. I'd leave it to having some kind of harness that would let them strap/hook it on their backs without "critically analyzing" it for physics problems too much.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
along the same lines it would be nice to allow for characters NOT to have the item on their body for those items that are effectively "summoned", or do the "draw" animation. examples: Solo from Marvel, Ranger from the DnD cartoon (no quiver), etc.
in general though I like the ideas being floated here though. whether they can be incorporated or not is an unknown, well they could be but the real question being whether it would be worth it given the possible complexity...multiple animation that have to be coded in etc. redlynne mentioned "just good enough" and I am ok with that given the illusion/action will happen both quickly and typically will not be the focus of a players attention...as such the illusion of drawing said weapon is effectively completed and is "good enough" for the function requested.
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
I say that because in this case the Perfect is the enemy of the Good Enough.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Obviously, giant swords have their mass and/or inertia decoupled or isolated from normal reality, precisely so that tiny anime characters can wield weapons that out-mass their artistically slender bodies. Or, maybe they're all just 'tactile telekinetics', like [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superboy_%28Kon-El%29]Superboy[/url]. Yes, yes, it's all clearly 'hand-wavium'.
However, I fear that any sort of Functional or even merely graphical sheathing of weapons may be difficult to simulate. Each weapon 'hard-point' would require a separate animation, even if we blur the details of getting the Point of the weapon in and out of the simulated sheath. Storing items in 'hammer-space' is infinitely simpler.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Be Well!
Fireheart
Ah, but that's the beauty of it, you see.
Pretty much all of the "usual suspects" for sheathing locations come down to a pretty specific set of locations ... typically over the shoulders from the back, under the arms, sides of hips, sides of thighs. That's basically 8 locations.
All of the draws are going to be what amounts to a relatively linear motion ... out of the sheath/quiver/holster. So the MOTION for each of those locations is going to be broadly similar. Of those locations, only the ones that draw above the waist (over shoulder, under armpit) don't make any sense for a either cross-draw motion (over shoulder) or a same side draw (under armpits). So that leaves 4 motions above the waist and 8 motions below the waist for 8 hardpoint locations at 4 heights on the body. That's a total of 12 motions to account for when dual wielding. Use partials of those dual wield motions to "complete the sets of single wield drawing motions (both left and right) and you've got a total matrix of 36 motions for 8 hardpoints, with a lot of overlap going on between all of those locations and motions.
THAT is something that can be achieved, and is something that is a Reasonable Ask.
The rest of the hardpoints that I mentioned previously could then be relegated to the White Board Of Future Endeavors as things to consider adding LATER as resources (and ambitions) permit.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Okay, Red, I think I'm with you here. In fact you might be over-estimating. Now, to make this easy, I'd be ok if there weren't actually any separate 'holster' that's actually worn. You just see the weapon pointed to the specific spot, ok? Let's assume that a given animation consists of a generic 'reaching' motion toward the holster location, at which point the weapon 'appears' in the hand, (and presumably disappears from its holster/scabbard spot) then coming to a very brief neutral 'drawn' state before the specific weapon animation kicks in (different ready stances, etc.) So we start with the various common draw points you outline and reference the appropriate draw hands:
Back/Over right shoulder - Right hand (1)
Back/Over Left shoulder - Left hand (1)
Under right arm - left hand (1)
Under left arm - right hand (1)
Right hip - Right hand(strong) + Left hand(cross) (2)
Left hip - Right hand(cross) + Left hand(strong) (2)
Right Thigh - right hand (1)
Left thigh - left hand (1)
So that's 10, except you really just have to flip the animations for right/left. So it's really only 5.
Now, I would add dual draw as separate animations. You might be able to save some work from the above, but conservatively, I'd say not. The shoulders and arms just don't go through the same motions. On the plus side, you don't need distinctive right/left animations so...
Dual cross draw from hips (1)
Dual cross draw from underarm (1)
Dual strong draw from thighs (1)
Dual strong draw from hips (for completeness sake) (1)
Total 14 (or 9, if they can simply be flipped right/left)
Alright, so broken down like that, maybe it's more doable than I first believed. That settles it. Now I want it.
Loved that drawing Redlynne and the ten minute video LaughingAlex.
Agreed. The illusion is good enough.
I hear seals breaking ...
The set of motions/animations I was thinking of were these:
[list][*]Back/Over Shoulder (right): right hand
[*]Back/Over Shoulder (left): left hand
[*]Back/Over Shoulder (right and left): right and left hands (same side draws)
[*]Under Arm (right): left hand (single cross draw)
[*]Under Arm (left): right hand (single cross draw)
[*]Under Arm (right and left): left and right hands (double cross draws)
[*]Hip (right): right hand
[*]Hip (right): left hand (single cross draw)
[*]Hip (left): left hand
[*]Hip (left): right hand (single cross draw)
[*]Hip (right and left): right and left hands (double same side draws)
[*]Hip (right and left): left and right hands (double cross draws)
[*]Thigh (right): right hand
[*]Thigh (right): left hand (single cross draw)
[*]Thigh (left): left hand
[*]Thigh (left): right hand (single cross draw)
[*]Thigh (right and left): right and left hands (double same side draws)
[*]Thigh (right and left): left and right hands (double cross draws)[/list]
Hmmm. Now that I list them out, that's only 18 instead of 36, so ... even less work than first napkin math guess? And obviously there's a lot of duplication going on there, because you're really only working with 8 hardpoints ... Back/Over Shoulder, Under Arm, Hip and Thigh ... on left and right.
Ah, but you may want to have different draw motions for some of the hardpoints due to the slight differences in draw motions for blades as opposed to guns. Specifically, I'm thinking of the difference in hand/wrist positioning for drawing a gun by the butt from a holster as opposed to gripping a hilt to draw a dagger or a sword. Movement of the arm/elbow/shoulder would still be largely the same in both cases though, so you'd still be seeing a lot of overlap in animation movement, so more of a variation on a theme, rather than an entire new movement sequence starting from scratch. So if you have different animations for hands when drawing blades versus guns, due to the different grip orientation used to draw the weapons, you're back up to 36 animations needed to cover all 8 hardpoints, with a LOT of reuse in that body of work.
Yeah, a Reasonable Ask™ all things considered.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
And as i said in my own post earlier, those 18 animations cover the vaaaaaast majority of character concepts. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head that isn't included there (and isn't a 'teleport in' effect) is across the small of the back, or a knife with a chest sheath, which could possibly be rigged using the under arm animations, due to only really needing to get the character's hand in the right sort of area.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
Hm. Yeah, I left out the dual over-the-shoulder. An oversight. Although I would differ with you slightly and argue that there are no really effective cross draws from a drop-leg holster(thigh.) And if you are talking about different hand/wrist positions, yes, that detail would add to the number. I was thinking in terms of 'gross motor' animations. But still, as you say, more variation than separate animation.
Obviously, I didn't describe the motions in detail. I was looking more for lowest common denominator solutions. True, drawing a pistol is not the same as drawing a sword or a dagger. Technically, a katana is drawn very differently from a European longsword. Like I mentioned, I was proposing a generic 'reaching' animation that ends with the weapon basically 'popping' into the hand. I don't know if that end state is part of the specific weapon animation or not.
Another consideration is how a specific weapon moves through space into its 'drawn and ready' position. Again, a pistol, a longsword, and a katana, even if they are all cross-drawn from the hip, describe very different movements in that regard. That would be for an animator to figure out. And if we are trying to be even somewhat realistic, that will add up quickly. Hence, a more generic compromise is what I was looking for.
Personally, I'm a fan of hammer space (pocket space). Being able to draw a sword from my change pocket I think it quite fantastic. In game I'd like to see a mission where some victim or villain gets trapped/hides in hammer space and you have to go find/capture them. The whole place would be filled with little sprites (pocket openings) and littered with hammers weapons arrows ammo lint and loose change. with the occasional ladder and a few rabbits. include a scavenger hunt for bonus rewards and badges.
While I appreciate hammer space. I am all for giving the regular folks a place to put their stuff. For starters I think you do the most damage by adding support for hips and back. Then you can add more animations later. Like thighs boots shoulders. Since we are mirroring all the draw animations you are almost required to mirror all the power and attack animations. To avoid the "I draw with for my left but use a right handed stance," arguments.
Second Chance: https://store.missingworldsmedia.com/CityOfTitans/SecondChance/
Dev Tracker: http://cityoftitans.com/forum/fixing-dev-digest
Dev Comments: https://cityoftitans.com/forum/dev-comments
Hammer Space™ is easy to do under the system we've been describing. Simply don't have a costume element to draw the weapon/item from. Where did it come from? Hammer Space™.
[youtube]whlCrlU0Z_0[/youtube]
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Its a Hard Light construct! ;D