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Ship of Heroes - Another CoX Successor project with a new twist

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TroublesomeKnight
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Ship of Heroes - Another CoX Successor project with a new twist

http://shipofheroes.com/

Massively just did an article on this, so I decided I'd post this here. It looks kinda cool, though I'm not sure what to think of their decision to outright use the same archetypes and such as CoX (They're even using Male, Female and Huge for body types).

The premise is a futuristic sci-fi setting where the heroes and civilians all live together on a massive ship traveling through space with multiple cities and other areas on it, called a "heroship". That certainly differentiates it from the other successors where even Valiance is still taking place on earth. It seems they plan to go to Kickstarter in April.

So, what do you guys think?

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They're also using the same

They're also using the same avatar builder UI as CoH (or at least something EXTREMELY similar). The different "Heroships" (servers?) are called "Justice" "Freedom" "Liberty". Same archetypes. Same origins (mutation, science, etc). Personally, I think they are going to get sued.

They are also planning to go from concept art to combat gameplay in a span of 5 or 6 months or so. Yeah - okay. Even if this is going to be a 2D browser-based or mobile game that's a little insane. Not really paying this one much attention.

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

They're also using the same avatar builder UI as CoH (or at least something EXTREMELY similar). The different "Heroships" (servers?) are called "Justice" "Freedom" "Liberty". Same archetypes. Same origins (mutation, science, etc). Personally, I think they are going to get sued.
They are also planning to go from concept art to combat gameplay in a span of 5 or 6 months or so. Yeah - okay. Even if this is going to be a 2D browser-based or mobile game that's a little insane. Not really paying this one much attention.

Yes it seems like they really are pushing a huge amount into a tiny amount of time.

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I'm going to have to agree

I'm going to have to agree with you there too Interdictor. Though the different "Heroships" aren't servers, but different locations within the setting. The main location for the game is going to be the FHS Justice.

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Wow it looks like the ONLY

Wow it looks like the ONLY thing they didn't directly copy from CoH was that instead of having arbitrary warwalls to define the city zones they just decided to make the "walls" literally be the bulkheads of a massive spaceship. I'll give them a few points for being clever with that, but I'd subtract a few thousand points for apparently copying everything else to the exact pixel.

If this thing is for real and NCsoft does NOT sue them down to their underwear I'd be amazed...

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I have mixed feelings about

I have mixed feelings about this project. I mean I like some of the concept art on the website, it looks very polished and colorful. It also feels very ambitious with it's time table.

I'm not sure about the over-all story with the “hero ship” concept. Don't know why, it feels iffy. I think it places more empathizes on it being more science fiction, which takes a bit away from the super hero concept. I don't know. It's something I should think about.

But, I share the same concern that it's copying from CoH. As others mentions, it's a lawsuit waiting to happen. Aside from that - copying the same archetypes, origins and mechanics; it feels wrong to me. City of Heroes was a great game, don't get me, but I feel that a spiritual successor should not just copy the old class structure to a T. Instead, I think they should seize the opportunity to think about how to improve the City of Heroes game. Use the opportunity to ask what worked and what didn't work in the original.

Maybe SoH has plans to make the game mechanically distinct, I don't know. But, at the very least, I think SoH should come up with different names for it's archetypes and origins. Oh, and change the central energy source to something other than Unobtanium.

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Whatever other misgivings I

Whatever other misgivings I may have after a more-than-cursory look (some of which have been mentioned in this thread already), I personally just don't like the fundamental concept as a basis for an entire MMORPG. Same way I feel about Valiance's concept, honestly.

While I absolutely love sub-genres like Galactic Heroes (Guardians of the Galaxy, Starjammers), Alternate Reality Heroes (ie. Praetorians, "Earth Two"), Future Heroes (Valiance, Ship of Heroes, Legion of Super-Heroes), etc., showing up in a Superhero game in the form of lore, and as missions, mission arcs, or zones in the game, I don't want to play a MMORPG based in just one particular Superhero sub-genre.

Again, just my personal preference, but it's pretty close to a deal-breaker for me.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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When I think about it, I

When I think about it, I think it's really only the UI and other visual details that could really lead to a potential lawsuit. Fantasy MMOs have all been using similar or the same names for the same basic classes and races for ages, so using the archetype and origin names that CoX used isn't really an issue to me other than lack of originality.

I think the other thing that really bothers me is the way they talk like they're the first and only successor project and only acknowledge the existance of CoT and Valiance in their survey. That and the timetable they've got set up seems a bit rushed.

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TroublesomeKnight wrote:
TroublesomeKnight wrote:

When I think about it, I think it's really only the UI and other visual details that could really lead to a potential lawsuit. Fantasy MMOs have all been using similar or the same names for the same basic classes and races for ages, so using the archetype and origin names that CoX used isn't really an issue to me other than lack of originality.
I think the other thing that really bothers me is the way they talk like they're the first and only successor project and only acknowledge the existance of CoT and Valiance in their survey. That and the timetable they've got set up seems a bit rushed.

I thought about this too, and you have a good point. A fantasy MMO that uses Fighter/Rogue/Mages with Human/Dwarves/Elves won't face the same issue because they've been used for ages, so no one really owns them. Also, in a super hero MMO, you can only come up with so many different names for the same archetype (imagine CoT, VO, H&V, and SoH trying to think of different words for their Blaster archetype). But... I'm not a lawyer but I hope the SoH team has thought about the legal ramifications more than I have.

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The concept could be fun, but

The concept could be fun, but I'll be surprised if we hear a peep from these guys in six months.

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The concept is one of my big

The concept is one of my big question marks. Why superheroes in space? I'm looking for it to be more than to have superheroes romp around on a space ship for no good reason. They need to be able to make use of the setting they've chosen.

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Apparently the "in space"
Darth Fez wrote:

The concept is one of my big question marks. Why superheroes in space? I'm looking for it to be more than to have superheroes romp around on a space ship for no good reason. They need to be able to make use of the setting they've chosen.

Apparently the "in space" part is what they hope will make it different enough from the original game to make it not 100% identical to it.

The way I see it being able to resurrect a game that's going to be even remotely similar to CoH (in other words a superhero game based in a single city on Earth) is hard enough - trying to have some kind of City of Heroes / Star Trek hybrid just sounds like reaching too far for one game to handle.

I love both City of Heroes and Star Trek individually but somehow trying to do one game that incorporates both core concepts seems "excessive" at best and too convoluted for its own good at worst. Sounds like the guys trying to do Ship of Heroes ought to stick to doing either a superhero game OR a space game, not try to cram both ideas into one.

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Besides, Star Trek has

Besides, Star Trek has superheroes. They call them engineers. Hand one a deflector dish and they'll put Superman to shame.

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Nah, Scottie outed engineers

Nah, Scottie outed engineers in "Relics" the 130th episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation--https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xRqXYsksFg

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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DC Comics has the Legion of

DC Comics has the Legion of Super Heroes which has often-- especially in the old Adventure Comics era-- often went on missions in space. It also has the Green Lantern Corps which is essentially the same concept. Marvel has the Nova Corps and Guardians of the Galaxy that are essentially super heroes in space as well.

The concept could be done-- and done well-- but I don't think their timeline is realistic and they would need a great deal of resources I don't think they have.

Of course you never know. Maybe one of them won the lottery and this is how they are spending their cash. ;-)

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Blue Battler wrote:
Blue Battler wrote:

DC Comics has the Legion of Super Heroes which has often-- especially in the old Adventure Comics era-- often went on missions in space. It also has the Green Lantern Corps which is essentially the same concept. Marvel has the Nova Corps and Guardians of the Galaxy that are essentially super heroes in space as well.

Sure there are plenty of examples of "superheroes in space" and I'm not really knocking the general concept. I'm just reacting more to what the Ship of Heroes guys have written when it sounds like they want to effectively superglue CoH and STO together into one single game and have all that work seamlessly. Still seems like classic "game overreach" to me.

Blue Battler wrote:

The concept could be done-- and done well-- but I don't think their timeline is realistic and they would need a great deal of resources I don't think they have.

Of course you never know. Maybe one of them won the lottery and this is how they are spending their cash. ;-)

Well maybe I'll see it when I believe it... (P.S. I reversed the traditional wording of that phrase for extra comic effect).

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Project reminded me of this

Project reminded me of this

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Besides, Star Trek has superheroes. They call them engineers. Hand one a deflector dish and they'll put Superman to shame.

http://imgur.com/gallery/wpZ4w

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Dr. Tyche. You are going to

Dr. Tyche. You are going to get someone fired with that link. I was really struggling to keep it together reading through that.

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Other then the other obvious

Other then the other obvious issues I just find the concept of that kind of odd. Trying to pair superheroes and sci-fi doesn't always go well....

I also find it really strange that they don't mention villains at all. They mention gangs but not genuine supervillains of any kind.

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CoX was also heroes-only at

CoX was also heroes-only at first. They're probably shooting for that. It all looks like VERY "low-hangning-fruit" to me, and a pretty obvious (and bad) copy of CoH. I can only assume their marquee character will be called Counties Man and the techy dude will be called "Anti-Electron".

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Allegedly their intent is to

Allegedly their intent is to take the CoH timeline and move it along 500 years. Source

I don't see how this can't end in a cease and desist order. I can't imagine that many people will fund them so long as they've got that hanging over their heads.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Allegedly their intent is to take the CoH timeline and move it along 500 years. Source
I don't see how this can't end in a cease and desist order. I can't imagine that many people will fund them so long as they've got that hanging over their heads.

Well the vibe I keep getting from everything I've read on their website is that they seem to think they'll have their massively huge CoH/STO hybrid game ready to go in like 6-8 months. It's like they're trying to convince us that "We'll give you twice as much as CoH provided and do it in half the time". If anyone can actually deliver that much working content in such a relatively short time frame it would be practically miraculous. I simply think they are either promising too much and/or grossly underestimating the overall effort involved - either of which would be bad news for the average player.

The other point that just occurred to me is if these guys actually do have the staff and budget to launch this game of theirs that quickly then why are we just hearing about their efforts at the end of 2016? CoH has been shutdown for 4 years now - did these guys just suddenly decide to make a replacement game last month or have they actually been working on Ship of Heroes secretly for years now? It all just seems a tad bit fishy somehow. *shrugs*

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Darth Fez wrote:
Allegedly their intent is to take the CoH timeline and move it along 500 years. Source
I don't see how this can't end in a cease and desist order. I can't imagine that many people will fund them so long as they've got that hanging over their heads.
Well the vibe I keep getting from everything I've read on their website is that they seem to think they'll have their massively huge CoH/STO hybrid game ready to go in like 6-8 months. It's like they're trying to convince us that "We'll give you twice as much as CoH provided and do it in half the time". If anyone can actually deliver that much working content in such a relatively short time frame it would be practically miraculous. I simply think they are either promising too much and/or grossly underestimating the overall effort involved - either of which would be bad news for the average player.
The other point that just occurred to me is if these guys actually do have the staff and budget to launch this game of theirs that quickly then why are we just hearing about their efforts at the end of 2016? CoH has been shutdown for 4 years now - did these guys just suddenly decide to make a replacement game last month or have they actually been working on Ship of Heroes secretly for years now? It all just seems a tad bit fishy somehow. *shrugs*

This is also why ive been sceptical about, it seems that their timeframes aren't realistic.

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Definitely sounds like a hoax

Definitely sounds like a hoax to me. Maybe they're going to do a crowdfunding thing then take the money and run.

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In before Nigerian connection

In before Nigerian connection becomes apparent ...


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The only thing that came to

The only thing that came to mind that would make this project interesting to me is if the gameplay would attempt to replicate the design intentions of the cancelled Stargate Worlds MMO, visiting different worlds much like the show where you had many varying themes. However, the first impression they give is not one of confidence where they are blatantly copying the CoH design(not that it was a bad design) and evidence of little to no development time beyond some photoshopped images. Having experienced the process with CoT and VO, it is hard to believe their timeline so I wish them luck but I am taking a wait and see approach.

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I don't get why they don't

I don't get why they don't change the interface some, and the names of archetypes/classes. Tank is generic, but is scrapper or blaster generic enough? They can always call them casters, or just ranged if they want to include guns and bows and arrows.

With good enough lawyers, I suppose they could defend the math of each power and class. The Osric people reproduce an early D&D ruleset, being careful not to duplicate the actual published materials, just the math behind everything with their own original game manuals and the argument you cannot copyright formulae. Did they succeed in getting away with it or are they just flying under the radar?

__________________

The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.

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Looking at that site, though,

Looking at that site, though, I'm totally down with the idea. I'll go one better -- let people's superbases be their own ships, and they can fly the ship to the "missions" on different giant ships. And please let it be real flight, so to speak, and not just another static level that gets loaded.

It would also be neat if, when you flew up to the sky, especially above the wall, it looks like the sky goes on, but instead you bump against a holodeck-like wall and there's brief decoherence of the distant 3d sky and you see a grid wall or something right in your face.

And lovely emergencies where someone pops a hole in a wall or floor and air starts sucking stuff out. Whee, what fun! Have it blow you out into space where you fly away and die, instead of just insta-dying right there.

yaaaaaaaaaaaasssssss

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The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.

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Didn't see any pet class so

Didn't see any pet class so not interested. I need my MM fix. Looks like it might be fun for people less fussed about pets.

Hip hooters Nee!

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TumbleweedGamer wrote:
TumbleweedGamer wrote:

Didn't see any pet class so not interested. I need my MM fix. Looks like it might be fun for people less fussed about pets.

I'll agree with this as well. Part of the reason why I am interested in CoT and a bit in VO was the rendition of the Mastermind concept. I have never seen another MMO do an pet class as well as CoX did so....

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Ugh, yes. I have tried so

Ugh, yes. I have tried so many different games over the years and the only games that have managed to have a respectable pet class aside from CoH were the original Guild Wars (and even then, pet controls were a bit janky) and, weirdly enough, Hunters in WoW (And that game has a lot of other, not pet-related issues). You'd think at least one game would have come out with something a little better, but nooooo.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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Massively did a new article

Massively did a new article with a youtube video.
Here is the link

http://massivelyop.com/2017/01/03/ship-of-heroes-demos-apotheosis-city-in-new-video/

MU

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It seems not so bad but I

It seems not so bad but I stay faithful to City of Titans.
Even more, the Ship idea is very bad !

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Ysangard wrote:
Ysangard wrote:

It seems not so bad but I stay faithful to City of Titans.
Even more, the Ship idea is very bad !

I mean, for me, pretty much this.

Basing the whole game on what would be a maybe a decent concept for an alternate reality story arc or something just seems weird. The game would have to be pretty freaking good for me to get past that concept.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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It certainly seems weird as a

It certainly seems weird as a concept. The video is pretty. I'm sure someone like Nate could tell if it is all made with assets from UE4. My money has been with CoT from the beginning and that is what I am looking forward to.

MU

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mrultimate wrote:
mrultimate wrote:

It certainly seems weird as a concept. The video is pretty. I'm sure someone like Nate could tell if it is all made with assets from UE4. My money has been with CoT from the beginning and that is what I am looking forward to.
MU

Not all, but I do recognize a sizable portion. But, that is no slight, after all we're using assets as well.

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I agree. I feel like the

I feel like the whole city ship concept is lacking to make it viable as a broad enough setting. Valiance Online, with it's futuristic setting is at least passable. If we're going to compare it to Star Trek themes, Ship of Heroes feels like it's one of those 'Holodeck gone fatality wrong' type of episode. I also feel that a heavy focus on the sci-fi setting for the game creates a disincentive for players who want to play a more supernatural-themed hero (and, although it could be done, any inclusion for magic in SoH would feel out of place).

The video looks nice, but hearing the Arch's backstory I can begin to see where the game, trying to be both Star Trek and City of Heroes, could fall on it's face. They said the city uses a holographic sky and simulates weather to make it feel authentic. Does that mean it'll replicate seasonal and weather patterns (like snow and rain storm)? That'll make the city seem more realistic if it was Titan City. But, for a spaceship, I think it'll feel off if the Arch's weather isn't anything but a sunny spring day. I even wonder if a day and night cycle makes sense for a city habitat in space. It's one of the things that stands out for me.

Also, hearing the video refer to the super element as Unobtainium, constantly, with a straight face is grating. Using the term straight out of TV Tropes feels so unoriginal and immersion break, considering that this is suppose to be a critical story element. For one thing, it's not accurate, you're using it and are using for your super hero technology - hence it's now obtainium. The least they could do is invent a more original name for it.

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Mainstream media has actually

Mainstream media has actually used Unobtanium before. Remember that movie Avatar, with the blue aliens? The entire reason humanity was on that planet was to get a material they outright called "Unobtanium".

Of course, that doesn't mean using it is a good thing.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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And let's not forget this one

And let's not forget this one.

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Really good looking video,

Really good looking video, though I was hoping they'd go in the building. As for a city ship, well, I've been spoiled by better ones...

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Hate to say it but when I

Hate to say it but when I first read about Ship of Heroes. My mind wondered if this was just the Heroes and Villains project revamp. I haven't been keeping up with that one and some of the same points SOH are the same as HvV.

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Thinking of what I would have

Thinking of what I would have done.

Instead of a ship how about a pocket dimension. A city built in a bubble literally. Missions are both in the city and in other realities accessed via portals. Zones are floating islands with various type of connections to other islands.

On a ship, there would be a very hazardous reason to rebel against the authority. "Seal Section 2 and activate air vacumes. Let's teach those rebels why you don't have a riot on a space ship. Oh no, we won't kill them it takes some time to suffocate. However, they will pass out before that happens."

In a pocket dimension there no such ability so you could have hazard zones as well as hostile forces having taken over. Outside forces could appear anywhere via portal openings and dimensional rifts.

I don't see how it's logical for alien attacks to happen like we had in City of Heros. "Sure let,s blast a hole in the haul of a ship we want to capture. That's a great idea!"

You can even tie in the Dimension thing with CoH thanks to a Pocket D DJ we all know. He could have cut connections to the CoH universe and cast the Pocket D into the multiverse.

-------------------------------------------
Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP

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WARNING: Completely futile

WARNING: Completely futile and hackneyed statement/rant forthcoming.

I just wish these guys--assuming they're legit--had backed up CoT. I mean, do they actually think their concept is significantly better? I guess they must. But it's too bad that CoT couldn't utilize that additional (presumed) talent. And then there's the scattering of monetary support between the various projects. It's just all regrettable, if unavoidable.

I don't know. All this fragmentation is frustrating. But, in the end, IMHO, Missing Worlds Media and City of Titans are taking the best path--which, as usual, is the long, hard path and the least forgiving at the beginning. And even so they're sticking it out.

It's a big world. Room for all. Let these guys do their thing. My money is no less--actually, even more so--on MWM and CoT because of Ship of Heroes.

I'm genuinely proud of all at MWM, and they have my admiration and respect.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

I'm genuinely proud of all at MWM, and they have my admiration and respect.

+1 Ditto! :)

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I just don't get showing

I just don't get showing basically a modern city as your first video and saying how everything is holographically generated for the populace. Your game is named Ship of Heroes and the premise is travelling through space. Shouldn't your first video be of a changing starfield as if you are in hyperspace? It seems like a cop out to expect the player to roleplay your intended design. I could just take CoT and do the same thing. Where do they draw the line at roleplaying and actually showing you are on a space ship?

Besides that, I thought the city looked good and the animation decent. Still not enough for me to make any decision whether to support it or not. Good luck to them and as soon as I can determine they are a legit operation, I will happily support them.

Reward tactics as well as damage dealing.

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While I'm in love with the

While I'm in love with the effort and the hard work that's being done on the engine is clearly showing through the updates with some of their concept work being very solid as well...there is one thing I'm not sold on and it's very important on this day and age I think: this just feels very limiting. And I feel I'm not the only one.

I'm certainly overwhelmed and joyed by their effort. I have to say, but this feels like "Let's work on this in a couple months, push a prototype, get money, launch early access and continue hemorrhaging until the game is "final" "

Your average roleplayer will not like this much. Besides that, the lore behind "500 years into the future" feels a tad weak admittedly. And the futuristic hero setting is currently being done by Valiance Online. They should have went with a more "Marvel Cosmic" setting instead of "City of Heroes - in a spaceship (literally)" That would have separated them from the rest -immediately-.

Wish them the best of luck, do not get me wrong. I know they've been working since March '16. This instant gratification idea will pay off in the short term too but the end-game may be a fate like "Rust" or "No Man's Sky" at best from my current look at the timeline.

Charles Logan
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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

I just wish these guys--assuming they're legit--had backed up CoT. I mean, do they actually think their concept is significantly better? I guess they must. But it's too bad that CoT couldn't utilize that additional (presumed) talent. And then there's the scattering of monetary support between the various projects. It's just all regrettable, if unavoidable.
I don't know. All this fragmentation is frustrating. But, in the end, IMHO, Missing Worlds Media and City of Titans are taking the best path--which, as usual, is the long, hard path and the least forgiving at the beginning. And even so they're sticking it out.
It's a big world. Room for all. Let these guys do their thing. My money is no less--actually, even more so--on MWM and CoT because of Ship of Heroes.
I'm genuinely proud of all at MWM, and they have my admiration and respect.

Couldn't have said this better myself.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Darth Fez wrote:
Besides, Star Trek has superheroes. They call them engineers. Hand one a deflector dish and they'll put Superman to shame.
http://imgur.com/gallery/wpZ4w

Let's face it. If Superman was a TOS episode, he'd win round 1 of course. Then Scotty would realize Superman was putting out more energy than his entire mass converted to energy, and what nonsense that was, and would eventually discover some subspace shunt to a massive power source.

They would sever the link, then phaser him to wear down his internal reserves while he tried go beat through the shields. Eventually, he would lie there in sick bay dying, staring off into space mumbling to someone named "Lois" about how she was right...she was right...

__________________

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Gorgon wrote:
Gorgon wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:
Besides, Star Trek has superheroes. They call them engineers. Hand one a deflector dish and they'll put Superman to shame.http://imgur.com/gallery/wpZ4w
Let's face it. If Superman was a TOS episode, he'd win round 1 of course. Then Scotty would realize Superman was putting out more energy than his entire mass converted to energy, and what nonsense that was, and would eventually discover some subspace shunt to a massive power source.
They would sever the link, then phaser him to wear down his internal reserves while he tried go beat through the shields. Eventually, he would lie there in sick bay dying, staring off into space mumbling to someone named "Lois" about how she was right...she was right...

Scotty, how is he doing it?

He canna break the laws of physics, Capt'n! If we hit the subspace shunt with a neutron flow, it should reverse the flow, after which he would be no more trouble than a wee babe!

Technical Director

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I'll pipe in with a contrary

I'll pipe in with a contrary opinion: IMHO there's enough talent to go around, and I don't feel that Ship of Heroes is draining talent from City of Titans in any significant way.

I wish them the best of luck, but for the reasons cloganart spells out, I'm not betting money on them. (Besides, CoT still owes me a Double Trouble.)

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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I also think the division of

I also think the division of talent into making different CoH successors is a result of people having different visions on what that successor should look like. If I recall, the reason Heroes and Villains became a separate project from City of Titans was because (correct me if I'm wrong) there were two countering visions on what the final product should look like. In cases like that it's better to go separate ways.

While I don't agree with vision behind Ship of Heroes (both with it's setting and it's perceive willingness to copypasta CoH's mechanics), if they are legitimate then I hope they have some success. Naturally my money is on CoT because I agree with their vision and I think they're taking the right steps in making a CoH successor.

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Little Red Ragnarok wrote:
Little Red Ragnarok wrote:

I also think the division of talent into making different CoH successors is a result of people having different visions on what that successor should look like. If I recall, the reason Heroes and Villains became a separate project from City of Titans was because (correct me if I'm wrong) there were two countering visions on what the final product should look like. In cases like that it's better to go separate ways.

That is a good way to put it. Sometimes there is just not a resolution, especially when it requires compromise.

Technical Director

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They recently had a poll on

They recently had a poll on their site asking visitors which level they are "most interested in playing in". One of the choices was "Superatural farm level". The game takes place on a spaceship - most of the choices would fit in a sci-fi star trekking theme I suppose but this one really sticks out. I guess they really wanted to include Croatoa in there?

I agree with some of the sentiments expressed here - if they had gone more "Cosmic Heroes" with different planets and such instead of "CoH but we're really on a holodeck spaceship!", it could actually work. As it is I'm just not feeling the backstory. Will be interesting to see what they come up with mechanically I suppose - if they will have some tricks up their sleeves or if they are going to copy CoH to the letter.

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I think the spaceship city

I think the spaceship city setting is more one of convenience than of focus. It's a way for the devs of that game to have a bunch of very different locals that are confining in nature.
'This area here is the gothic city setting full of ghosts and ghoulies and down that hall there is where we have our city of the future'.
I doubt the game would have a strong focus on the spaceship setting, instead it will probably feel more like a theme park instead of a series of connected zones.

And Interdictor, they have said the ship will stop over a variety of different planets the players could go explore.

My biggest problem with that project isn't the setting. It's the almost deceptive use of mock-ups to give an impression of advanced progress. Still images are easy to make and fake. I will be more trusting when they provide some extensive video evidence.

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Walls suggests level-based

Walls suggests level-based design, which is a thing of the distant past. The game engines no longer need it.

This isn't to say there won't be theme parks, but you don't need loaded limited levels anymore and hence don't need walls.

__________________

The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.

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Just cause you don't see the

Just cause you don't see the walls does not mean they are not there. And mechanical limitations is not the only reason to separate game areas with load screens.

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New Character Creator Video.

New Character Creator Video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ6evQ2g6vU

It's pretty. I understand that they have been working behind the scenes for a while but it seems "too good to be true" almost.
I don't know that I would be able to play more than one MMORPG at a time. I wish them all the success in the world but my heart is set on CoT.

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I essentially feel the same

I essentially feel the same way. "Ship of Heroes" just came out of nowhere with a shiny polish (still looking a LOT like the old CoH avatar builder). From what I can gather they have a small team and an almost unreasonable timetable - it may look new and shiny but I don't expect much in the way of depth or gameplay.

I'll wait and see - maybe I'll be surprised. I'll check out each of the successors if and when they release, but I will only be able to devote time to one MMO. So far I find CoT to be the one with the most potential (and the setting/world so far "jives" with me more) and thus I am following the development of this one most closely.

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SoH looks interesting, but i

SoH looks interesting, but i can't help but feel like there's something off with the whole character creator shown there, and I'm not certain what it is.

At the same time, I'm much more invested in CoT succeeding, and I sort of despise the "superheroes in space" concept SoH is touting. I'll keep an eye on both, but CoT just feels like more

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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I'm kind of amused by the

I'm kind of amused by the skin tone slider. So much for blue- and green-skinned aliens.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Speaking of sliders, that's a

Speaking of sliders, that's a good example of what I consider too much granularity. I can't even tell what effect many of those sliders are having on the character as they slide them back and forth.

I think MWM's plan to provide both presets and sliders is a really good one.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I think there is some

I think there is some potential there but it seems that they are already wandering off course. I don't think the holodeck thing makes much sense. Personally, if I'm running with this idea, the ship is a hub, like AP. There may be some low level "villainy" there or some missions where you have to root out a spy to save the ship. But primarily it's there to allow you to quickly travel to a ton of different and unique locales where you actually need to fight the bad guys. You essentially play galactic cop as a super hero. The justice league set in a technologically advanced timeline.

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I agree there is potential

I agree there is potential for this game. The only gripe I have is that they have a costume creator demo video before this game. I realize that is a demo, however it still more than what we have been shown.

All 4 Mutants

Evolution is key. And mutants are key.

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All 4 Mutants wrote:
All 4 Mutants wrote:

I agree there is potential for this game. The only gripe I have is that they have a costume creator demo video before this game. I realize that is a demo, however it still more than what we have been shown.
All 4 Mutants

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BswGrULkZao&t=56s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU23rNGEyc8

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BswGrULkZao&t=56s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU23rNGEyc8

And thus A4M got educated by the Doctor himself. Nice.

I always love these videos. They really show off the breadth of changes you can make in CoT so far, and they're still getting added onto.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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Halae wrote:
Halae wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BswGrULkZao&t=56shttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU23rNGEyc8
And thus A4M got educated by the Doctor himself. Nice.
I always love these videos. They really show off the breadth of changes you can make in CoT so far, and they're still getting added onto.

Nope A4M got squat. We have an Odo or some generic Santa, I was getting at some signature characters. Real heroes and villains, real touch and go character customization. Just because my fingers type one thing, my mind had envisioned something that made sense to me but apparently not to everyone else. If you are having some fan boy fixation keep it off here and away from me. I am trying to be positive and helpful even tho again what I type and what I mean come across differently. If you want to keep this civil I am all for that, but if we are gonna get into some internet fighting and ruin everyones day...Lets GO!!

All 4 Mutants

Evolution is key. And mutants are key.

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Missing Worlds Media is/are

Missing Worlds Media is/are not loafing.

They are a mostly volunteer indie studio working to make a truly, fully AAA game on a schedule that any major game company would find ambitious and on a budget that major studios would laugh at--laugh long and hard. And the key phrase there is "a truly, fully AAA game".

They could crank us out something to have for now that would be, well, exactly that, something... but that is not what this project is about. It is about a new, lasting home.

And all this while, of necessity due to the need for a Kickstarter, bearing constant scrutiny that no major studio would risk, coming from well-meaning but impatient fans who do not, by and large, have nearly as much understanding of the realities of game creation as they think they do.

City of Heroes was not just "something". City of Heroes was a phenomenon. And in my opinion, City of Titans has the actual, real, rare chance to catch some of that lightning in a bottle, and then add more than a little lightning of their own.

Other than the previous sentence above which was personal opinion, please MWM or anyone correct me if I'm wrong about what I've stated--but I do not believe that I am.

And this post was not "at" anyone, just something I felt needed to be said--again.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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All 4 Mutants wrote:
All 4 Mutants wrote:

Halae wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BswGrULkZao&t=56shttps://www.youtube.com...
And thus A4M got educated by the Doctor himself. Nice.
I always love these videos. They really show off the breadth of changes you can make in CoT so far, and they're still getting added onto.
Nope A4M got squat. We have an Odo or some generic Santa, I was getting at some signature characters. Real heroes and villains, real touch and go character customization. Just because my fingers type one thing, my mind had envisioned something that made sense to me but apparently not to everyone else. If you are having some fan boy fixation keep it off here and away from me. I am trying to be positive and helpful even tho again what I type and what I mean come across differently. If you want to keep this civil I am all for that, but if we are gonna get into some internet fighting and ruin everyones day...Lets GO!!
All 4 Mutants

I wasn't meaning to be rude; sorry if it came across that way - I'm not great with social stuff.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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Looking at this website gives

Looking at this website gives me strange feelings. I'm not a professional web designer, but I know enough to watch for some things. The 'scroll down forever' design on the front page is the same thing used by Valve in some TF2 updates: it presents information in the order you want the audience to see it. That and the fact that it ends in a register button are a red flag for me, as far as home pages go.

The main site only has a few images to go around, despite having some solid ones in the news pages. At the same time, there's the occasional formatting gaff that knots me up a little. Overall, it feels... corporate, I suppose, but that might just be me. The relatively anorexic amount of game images, and the polls on the front page asking about back end game mechanics, and the constant mentions of community involvement are also worrying me. Also, they're using the word 'Demo' to refer to a video, from what I can tell. Sure, nothing there is really a show-stopper, but... I guess they seem a little too desperate for my input and money.

As for the backstory and lore... not sure. It feels a little over-complicated. Super powers in space can work (Say what I will about The Old Republic, but it has amazing lore and story) but this feels like... trying to have your cake and eat it, too, I suppose. It just doesn't gel with me at a glance.

Maybe there's just someone honestly overeager behind it all, but all that and the sudden appearance of this (five updates in January alone?) make me want to hold back for now. Let's see how this shakes out.

Under Construction...

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Lost Deep wrote:
Lost Deep wrote:

Maybe there's just someone honestly overeager behind it all, but all that and the sudden appearance of this (five updates in January alone?) make me want to hold back for now. Let's see how this shakes out.

It wouldn't bother me if the folks behind Ship of Heroes were simply a little "overeager" about their new game. But as you imply it strongly begs the question why we just heard about this effort a couple of months ago and seemingly completely out of the blue. One would think if these guys were so "jazzed up" about creating their own spiritual successor to CoH they would have publicly announced their intentions years ago.

I suppose it's always possible they literally just woke up a couple of months ago and decided to take a blind stab at making a complex superhero game or perhaps more likely they have actually been secretly planning/working on Ship of Heroes for much longer than that and for some reason didn't want to openly admit it. Either way either of those explanations continue to smell a little too unsavory for me to completely accept it as fully legitimate enterprise. Perhaps we'll see just how serious the whole thing turns out to be in the next few months.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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what bothers me about this

what bothers me about this whole ship of heroes project is that a 3rd of the development team is a family, and the only person there with any real experience is the father. the two kids looks like they've barely graduated from high school, let alone college

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

what bothers me about this whole ship of heroes project is that a 3rd of the development team is a family, and the only person there with any real experience is the father. the two kids looks like they've barely graduated from high school, let alone college

Ahh, they look younger and younger the older you get... even though they might still be the same age. Its something that I noticed when I was at university, and that was that the first years, looked younger than the previous years new influx of students....

Which if you took it to the logical extreme meant that the first ever set of students looked like your grandmother.... and they were only 18!

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Looks good. Keeping an eye on

Looks good. Keeping an eye on this one. Despite the backlash, the progress is rather impressive, and they were pretty quiet about it, until they had something juicy to show, like CoT and unlike VO.

It is looking more likely that it will actually be CoT and SoH, the other two appear to be doing this for the sake of their small fan base with no real expectation to complete the project. Nobody really knows much in regards to the plans of VO or Heroes and Villains. To be honest, I don't think they are sure neither.

Impressive no doubt. Out of the four, CoT and SoH look like they are making a product. These two are the front runners. It is getting interesting folks.

DCUO and CO, goodbye, good riddance. These two games are a poison to the genre. They tarnished the superhero MMO legacy. When it comes to CoT and SoH, people who do not know better will probably think, "Oh, no, another DCUO money grab."

As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.

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I'm also one of those people

I'm also one of those people that thinks it's a massive shame that so much talent is being spread so thinly amongst the handful of projects. I've spent a bit of time in Paragon Chat lately and it's just making me want a re-release or remake even more. I'm surprised at how well CoH has aged with the graphics improvements.

Given that AC2 got re-released I was working myself up for a while but there's a glimmer of hope with the negotiations that I assume are still going on with NCSoft.

In all honesty, I'd happily play CoH again if the CoT team could get the server binaries from NCsoft and agreement to fire up a small server or two while they finish developing CoT. I wonder what the hardware specs were for the CoH servers.

I looked into CO but it doesn't seem like it'll hold my interest in the interim. :(

Back on topic: I find the lore of SoH quite jarring, but I'd be willing to give it a chance. I wish each of the projects every success!

Human Flea / Union / Sci SR/Claws Scrapper
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VO and Heroes and Villains

VO and Heroes and Villains need to team up, but I have heard bad things about Heroes and Villains dealings with people some time ago, I dont know the exacts.

As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.

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SoH now has a Kickstarter

SoH now has a Kickstarter countdown on their website. It looks that they launch it on April 3rd.

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Solari wrote:
Solari wrote:

I'm also one of those people that thinks it's a massive shame that so much talent is being spread so thinly amongst the handful of projects.

I feel this way too.

We're seeing Game Theory in practice. I refer to system modeling mathematics, not actual games.

I think the movie "A beautiful mind" illustrated it well. In it, a group of guys go out to a bar. They see a hot blond and they all want to go home with her. But they all can't go home with her and, in fact just trying to all go after her at the same time could result in none of them getting her at all. But she has a bunch of pretty friends with her who are not as hot as she is but are quite attractive nonetheless. If the guys all choose to each go after one of her friends instead, they could all succeed. Sure, none of them would get the ultimate hot blonde, but all of them succeeding a little is better then all but one of them failing.

Likewise with City of Heroes successors. It seems as if each one is trying for its own version of what a perfect successor would be. But being spread so thin, none of them is truly successful or has a good chance of putting forth a truly AAA class project in any reasonable schedule. So rather than working seperately on something that fulfills all of what they want, they could work together to compromise a little on something that would include most of their desires instead. This cooperative project might not be each group's perfect vision (the hot blonde), but it would be a good game nonetheless.

But it's really too late now. They've already made the moves on the hot blonde and put off her friends. By this I mean they've each got kickstarter patron's to appease. So, barring anyone jumping ship or just declaring defeat, I don't see the situation changing.

And that's why my support is behind MWM. In my opinion it is not just a reproduction of CoH, but is instead the best next-generation successor to it.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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I bet they pass VO, lol as

I bet they pass VO, lol as far as releasing a product goes. Watch.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Likewise with City of Heroes successors. It seems as if each one is trying for its own version of what a perfect successor would be. But being spread so thin, none of them is truly successful or has a good chance of putting forth a truly AAA class project in any reasonable schedule. So rather than working seperately on something that fulfills all of what they want, they could work together to compromise a little on something that would include most of their desires instead. This cooperative project might not be each group's perfect vision (the hot blonde), but it would be a good game nonetheless.

Allow me to put forward a contrary view. As you've noted, there are many potential candidates for a "successor". For a given project, many decisions have to be made as to what's in and what's out. Kind of like what each suitor prioritizes in a one-night stand. Not everyone has the same standards, though. And if we push the decision of which one to support up as early as possible, when everything's a bunch of whiteboard markup, then you don't get competition, and worse, you don't get to see how the other options would have turned out.

Instead, if we accept multiple entrants to the market, we the players can compare actual delivered products instead of promise lists, and the various teams would have implemented technologies they could cross-license to make their products better, nearly achieving the same level of development per game as if they put everyone on one game.

And this doesn't even get into the politics of how developers just don't like working on a game they feel is done wrong. And there will be a lot of that, regardless of how the game is designed.

This is similar to what we saw during the JSF project: there was a competition, and a decision was made at the "rigged demo" stage, long before either candidate was actually usable. And now, 17 years later, they're barely getting them into service, they might get to carry more than two missiles in a couple years, and they flew better in The Avengers movie than anywhere else. Had the competition progressed longer, there would be more motivation to compete lest your bird get canned in favor of the other.

Now if I were to go all Villain on you, I'd note that after your four dudes went home with their four Miss Right-Nows, the next day Miss Hot Stuff chats with her friends about how their nights went, picks the dude who allegedly did the best, and steals him, or ignores all of them because they suck.

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Allow me to put forward a contrary view. As you've noted, there are many potential candidates for a "successor". For a given project, many decisions have to be made as to what's in and what's out. Kind of like what each suitor prioritizes in a one-night stand. Not everyone has the same standards, though. And if we push the decision of which one to support up as early as possible, when everything's a bunch of whiteboard markup, then you don't get competition, and worse, you don't get to see how the other options would have turned out.
Instead, if we accept multiple entrants to the market, we the players can compare actual delivered products instead of promise lists, and the various teams would have implemented technologies they could cross-license to make their products better, nearly achieving the same level of development per game as if they put everyone on one game.

Your contrary view actually mixed up my example with our situation and missed the point of what Game Theory is. Granted I perhaps chose a poor example because I chose an example from pop-culture in the hopes people might be familiar with it.

The point is that if you have multiple actors there can be a logical decision-making strategem to allows them all to succeed if they cooperate. Competition is assumed in Game Theory, not eliminated. If they don't cooperate there is a good chance that one may succeed but it is nearly assured that the others will fail. Factors that go into this are the amount of resources and the size of the market.

So your contrary view of this competition does not fit this situation because it appears to assume that each competitor has the staff and funding to be successful. I posit that because the teams have spread themselves so thin in their attempt to achieve their own views of perfection they have all taken themselves out of the game. In other words, we have already passed the point where they have made their decisions to reach for perfection rather than cooperate. We are already now in the situation where one might succeed but assuredly the others will fail.

By cooperating in their decision-making, the actors could have had larger staffs and revenue and could have produced a good game on time. That would necessarily mean that we would have fewer teams, or maybe just one team, but all the actors would still be there, competing for their own ideas and goals within that enterprise.

But Doctor Tyche already alluded to some of this when he recently discussed how CoT, Valiance and HnV were somewhat cooperating until SoH showed up and now the actions of all the actors are no longer predictable.. That's the problem with cooperation. It requires the participation of all the parties or its not cooperation, even in a competitive environment.

Now it is a race to see who doesn't have the slowest horse.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Couple comments in no

Couple comments in no particular order.

NCsoft, from what I've read from various sources, is not keen on ever giving up the IP. I think the initial meetings about possibly spinning off the IP as a separate entity were more of a courtesy than a legitimate effort. The talks either have been very quiet for the past couple years or stopped.

I don't think all cooperation between the projects has stopped since SOH showed up. I think it still behooves the original entrants to cooperate where they can despite the late coming unruly operators. Going back to the hot blonde metaphor. Who will be more successful the loner or the guy with his wingman?

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Your contrary view actually mixed up my example with our situation and missed the point of what Game Theory is. Granted I perhaps chose a poor example because I chose an example from pop-culture in the hopes people might be familiar with it.

I know what game theory is. Prisoner's dilemma, decision trees, all that fun. I guess I wasn't clear that I didn't accept your game model; it ended too soon.

Huckleberry wrote:

The point is that if you have multiple actors there can be a logical decision-making strategem to allows them all to succeed if they cooperate. Competition is assumed in Game Theory, not eliminated. If they don't cooperate there is a good chance that one may succeed but it is nearly assured that the others will fail. Factors that go into this are the amount of resources and the size of the market.

There's plenty of competition to be had in cooperative games, though. What I see your model doing is effectively a single iteration: the market players divvy up the development resources according to some strategy, make their games, and then they either succeed or fail. IMHO there's a loop in there, though, and the game (as in game theory, not the games the market players put forward) continues past everyone's launch (or not-launch). So there's value in long-term vs. short-term planning.

Huckleberry wrote:

So your contrary view of this competition does not fit this situation because it appears to assume that each competitor has the staff and funding to be successful. I posit that because the teams have spread themselves so thin in their attempt to achieve their own views of perfection they have all taken themselves out of the game. In other words, we have already passed the point where they have made their decisions to reach for perfection rather than cooperate. We are already now in the situation where one might succeed but assuredly the others will fail.

Given that there haven't been large staff transfers between the games, though, and CoT isn't on the road to ruin, I don't see why I have to posit that the other players have to fail.

Huckleberry wrote:

By cooperating in their decision-making, the actors could have had larger staffs and revenue and could have produced a good game on time. That would necessarily mean that we would have fewer teams, or maybe just one team, but all the actors would still be there, competing for their own ideas and goals within that enterprise.

You'd have one team, and at least 20% of the actors would have quit because they don't like where things are going. There's nothing forcing all the developers to work on the game, so 100% employment isn't likely. And the game itself is almost certainly mediocre, having to satisfy so many people.

It's like how the best way to have a TV show that doesn't have sharp edges and spirit, and just plays it safe, is to have a writers' committee that gets to edit all the scripts. Any kind of vision is quickly polished away. It's also like how many large open-source projects rarely have creative visions and instead ape toe operation of existing, proprietary products.

Huckleberry wrote:

But Doctor Tyche already alluded to some of this when he recently discussed how CoT, Valiance and HnV were somewhat cooperating until SoH showed up and now the actions of all the actors are no longer predictable.. That's the problem with cooperation. It requires the participation of all the parties or its not cooperation, even in a competitive environment.

Unless cooperation gives the market players enough advantage over the lone wolves.

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I suppose that depends on

I suppose that depends on what you call success and failure. I included schedule in my definition of success. And in that regard, each of the competitors so far has not succeeded in putting forth a good game in the time it would have taken a well resourced team to have put one out, considering the start dates. And schedule is just one measure of success. Since we attempt to put ourselves in the minds of the development teams, we cannot with any certainty claim to know whether or not they are each meeting their technological, gameplay and creative goals.

In any case, I am putting my support with MWM because I see CoT as being the project with the highest chance at being the king of the hill. Like Solari and others have stated, however, it is a shame that the talent and resources have been spread as thin as they are.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I suppose that depends on what you call success and failure. I included schedule in my definition of success. And in that regard, each of the competitors so far has not succeeded in putting forth a good game in the time it would have taken a well resourced team to have put one out, considering the start dates. And schedule is just one measure of success. Since we attempt to put ourselves in the minds of the development teams, we cannot with any certainty claim to know whether or not they are each meeting their technological, gameplay and creative goals.
In any case, I am putting my support with MWM because I see CoT as being the project with the highest chance at being the king of the hill. Like Solari and others have stated, however, it is a shame that the talent and resources have been spread as thin as they are.

That isn't entirely true and not a fair value to assess success by. Many well resourced teams have worked on games for longer that never saw the light of day. Heck, look at Blizzard's last attempt at an MMO. It took 7 years (of primary development, there were a few years of some internal pre-development as well) and hundres of millions of dollars and just when all the pieces were about to be put together - the project was shut down.

There's a larger story to it, but the short of it is that they didn't believe they achieved what they set out to create. Things didn't click together they way they hoped. Certain things suddenly felt 'unfun' even if the individual concepts sounded like and on their own were fun. They sure managed to make lemonade out of that lemon but still, they never completed what they set out to accomplish.


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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

And schedule is just one measure of success.

IMHO it's a relatively minor one. "People remember broken a lot longer than they remember late."

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

That isn't entirely true and not a fair value to assess success by. Many well resourced teams have worked on games for longer that never saw the light of day.

Sorry, Tannim, I had trouble following your train of thought, but I think I got it. I mentioned that schedule was one of my measures of success and then listed gameplay, technology and creative content as potential other measures. Shall I assume that your comment was in response to my statement that schedule can be a measure of success? If so, your point about the game that was never made does not correlate to a schedule-based measure of success either. Unless you are trying to say that reasons other than schedule slippage caused the failure.

If that's the case, I think I understand where you were going. I think you were trying to say that a well funded and well staffed project still didn't succeed. To which I say I understand. There was, is and will always the be possibility of failure. Nothing guarantees success; and if you interpreted my discussion of game theory to say that success would be guaranteed if the projects were better staffed and funded, then I apologize for misleading you. I actually deleted phrases to that effect when I wrote my discussion of game theory because it would have made the whole argument less simple if I started throwing conditional modifiers like "they could all succeed if they don't mess up" and left it as just "they could all succeed".


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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How do we report posts? The

How do we report posts? The repeated talk in this thread about women as objects of conquest is disturbing and demeaning.

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Kassandros wrote:
Kassandros wrote:

How do we report posts? The repeated talk in this thread about women as objects of conquest is disturbing and demeaning.

If you are serious, then I suggest you watch the movie "A Beautiful Mind" so you can understand the pop-reference I was using as the example. The movie was set during the 50's and it was customary during that time for men to approach women to ask them out; especially in a bar setting, which is where that example took place. Besides, what was going on in your mind that was not being expressly stated in the example? I believe your pointing of the finger says far more about your state of mind and how you view men and women than it does about the posters here discussing game theory using the example of meeting members of the opposite sex.

And if you were being sarcastic, and attempting to be funny, I think it is wholly inappropriate to make public accusations like that in the name of humor.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Sarcasm or not, there are

Sarcasm or not, there are better examples you could have used, such as staffing a baseball team, that didn't involve a meat market model. There's also the expression "the perfect is the enemy of the good".

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Sarcasm or not, there are better examples you could have used, such as staffing a baseball team, that didn't involve a meat market model. There's also the expression "the perfect is the enemy of the good".

It is a well known and published example. Perhaps you should read this link.

I thought more people would be familiar with it since it was in a very popular movie starring Russel Crowe as John Nash, one of the most important proponents of modern game theory, and namesake of the concept of Nash Equilibrium.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.

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