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Severing Effect For Final Attacks

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Silent Sillo
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Severing Effect For Final Attacks

I'm sure COT will have animations for powers that will go with our character's personality. You also aim at not making it repetitive.

How likely is it to singe or sever equipment and wounded enemies with concussive blasts?

Possibly, a sword that splits things in fractions instead of the usual explosion and vanishing bodies. If physics is involved, it would look even better. The stronger the build would increase the effect.

I am not asking for gore, just the ability to express our attacks more. Is this something that has been considered?

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I'm having a bit of a hard

I'm having a bit of a hard understanding you here, are you asking for "finishers" type effects? I understand that you are not asking for them to be anywhere near Mortal Kombat level, just trying to understand what type of effect it is.

I can say this. Considering the rating that MWM wants to achieve for the game I'm pretty sure that anything that makes it conclusive that the target dies is a no-go.

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Thanks for your response. Not

Thanks for your response. Not a special finisher, so to speak. I am referring to the end of enemy life bars.
When they die, they always blink or fade away. When robots die, they always blow up the same way.

I'm asking for variations of the enemy deaths. Depending on what type of super blast we use or if we have some kind of blade.
Can one of the death variations be severing body parts?
For example, imagine Cyclops blasts splitting a wall in two. Or anime samurai slashing through his opponent, then you see the enemy fall apart after. Make sense?

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Now I see, though that was

Now I see, though that was what I meant by "finisher" type effects (keyword: effects). In retrospect using kill or death animation would have been better word-wise, for both of us, since that is what you are actually asking about.

I doubt it will get implemented since if they are going to stay true to CoH in this regard as well then we are not technically killing anyone, we're only subduing them. Only "special" death I can remember from CoH was when you manage to kill someone with a knockback attack and you sent them flying while rag doll physics took over.

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In CoX, when you defeated

In CoX, when you defeated anything, it left an "unconscious" body behind in all cases, as far as I can remember. Those bodies were mostly window dressing but then there WERE some powers that actually interacted with them. The Warshade had a self-buff power that worked off of them, IIRC. So total destruction of the body upon defeat might not always happen, or even at all, maybe. On the other hand, some of the Vahzilok were walking toxic damage bombs that exploded on you. So I think the defeat animation might be more a function of the target than the attack used. I could see robots or something being smashed, exploding, falling to pieces, or even just falling down and then spawning a bunch of smaller robots, like the Clockwork Assembler Princes did.

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I highly doubt we'll see any

I highly doubt we'll see any kind of dismembering, particularly of people, whether from explosions, slashing attacks, or any other kind of player or NPC abilities for that matter. There are two main reasons. First is that MWM is aiming for a 'Teen' rating for CoT, which rules out excessive gore or particularly graphic forms of demise. Second, as has been pointed out, I expect that CoT will take a cue from CoX in that NPCs and players are simply 'Defeated' in combat, leaving plenty of room for interpretation as to what actually happens and what 'Defeated' actually means. Some poor goon being sliced in half or decapitated doesn't leave much room for ambiguity as to his fate, does it? I think that, at most we'll see these 'Defeated' enemies and possibly players go limp upon 'defeat' allowing for some potentially entertaining ragdoll shenanigans.

That being said, I think there is some room for inorganic enemies such as robots or rock monsters, animated skeletons, or whatever to fall apart upon defeat, but living beings being dismembered is (almost) certainly not going to happen.

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I think I might have a good

I think I might have a good compromise for this proposal. In the OP, Silent Sillo mentioned how attacks could "singe or sever equipment" in addition to the NPC's themselves, implying that dismemberment on people who bleed red might be off the table, but clothing damage? Busting open a hero's helmet? Severing his bandoliers and belts? Leaving singe marks or a layer of frost over his body? Breaking his sword in two? Splintering his shields? All of these methods are easy ways to show the sheer amount of carnage a super can do to someone without messing with the rating system. And for everything that doesn't bleed, you can dismember to pretty much any extent the devs feel like- giant robots, Earth elementals, slime monsters, and ghosts can all be torn apart with nary a quibble. What more, if the NPC's body gets completely destroyed such that there's no bloody mess left to clean up, (ex. cremation, vaporization, blasted into the Aether, etc.) then you can take all the liberties you want with a powerset's high-tier abilities. Not to mention another tidbit I remember hearing about- allegedly, characters might get to choose between using lethal or non-lethal methods for eliminating enemies, which implies that there may be some way to toggle what kinds of havoc you wreak on somebody: "Do you aim for center-mass, or do you go for the legs?" "Is there a fissure in their helmets when you defeat them, as if your barbarian axe just split their skulls in a family-friendly way?" "Do the robots look like their circuits just got knocked out of whack, or are there bits and pieces of them scattered all over Creation?" For ambiguity's sake, we can instead choose not to differentiate between lethal and non-lethal finisher effects, as in: "You just hit some random part of the crook's body." "The fissure in that guy's helmet didn't necessarily go all the way into the skull." "Some cogs fell off the robot, but it's nothing some WD-40 and a roll of duct tape can't fix."

So, how's that for family-friendly bodily destruction?

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Silent Sillo
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AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

I think I might have a good compromise for this proposal. In the OP, Silent Sillo mentioned how attacks could "singe or sever equipment" in addition to the NPC's themselves, implying that dismemberment on people who bleed red might be off the table, but clothing damage? Busting open a hero's helmet? Severing his bandoliers and belts? Leaving singe marks or a layer of frost over his body? Breaking his sword in two? Splintering his shields? All of these methods are easy ways to show the sheer amount of carnage a super can do to someone without messing with the rating system. And for everything that doesn't bleed, you can dismember to pretty much any extent the devs feel like- giant robots, Earth elementals, slime monsters, and ghosts can all be torn apart with nary a quibble. What more, if the NPC's body gets completely destroyed such that there's no bloody mess left to clean up, (ex. cremation, vaporization, blasted into the Aether, etc.) then you can take all the liberties you want with a powerset's high-tier abilities. Not to mention another tidbit I remember hearing about- allegedly, characters might get to choose between using lethal or non-lethal methods for eliminating enemies, which implies that there may be some way to toggle what kinds of havoc you wreak on somebody: "Do you aim for center-mass, or do you go for the legs?" "Is there a fissure in their helmets when you defeat them, as if your barbarian axe just split their skulls in a family-friendly way?" "Do the robots look like their circuits just got knocked out of whack, or are there bits and pieces of them scattered all over Creation?" For ambiguity's sake, we can instead choose not to differentiate between lethal and non-lethal finisher effects, as in: "You just hit some random part of the crook's body." "The fissure in that guy's helmet didn't necessarily go all the way into the skull." "Some cogs fell off the robot, but it's nothing some WD-40 and a roll of duct tape can't fix."
So, how's that for family-friendly bodily destruction?

This was amazing, you worded what I was thinking. That's why I mentioned no gore, non-organics being dismembered should not be considered gore. As you put, ghosts, rockmen, robots can all be dismembered and families will cheer.

To answer your question about which parts to sever. I would mix in physics, so where ever that last hit lands and has the biggest impact. Also depending on the type of power or weapon used. So, the waist, robot's shoulder gun, and I love the helmet being crushed or knocked off!!!

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It might be tough to do

It might be tough to do battle damage well with the visual decoupling. Remember being burned can be frostbite, fire or acid. With all the visual options we will have for abilities it would be a lot of work to give every different enemy in the game a different battle damage effect for every different ability visual identity.
Why not just use ragdoll physics with modifiers for the type of attack used to defeat them.
A single force point at a random point on a defeated enemy when hit by a single attack, multiple force points for multiple hits, a force wave for explosive type attacks or whatever else needs be applied.
Might even make it a bit simpler and just have a slow motion moment for the main boss. A game called Vindictus does it and its a nice effect. You can see it here at around 15 seconds in:

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Again, I think the defeat

Again, I think the defeat animation depends almost entirely on the target. You could give, say, robot targets different defeat animations based on what type of robot they are, and you could even go as far as to give the different robots different defeat animations based on that attack actually did the last point of damage that dropped them, but all of that is something that would be a property of the robot. It would be one of the emotes that particular robot can do, so to speak, I would expect.

So begin able to use your sword to always cut the target in half as the killing blow would be a tall order. You'd be putting that in for every possible target as one of that target's emotes, I would think. It seems like the less labor-intensive approach would be to give every target one or two different defeat emotes and leave it at that.

Because this is another place where the work you have to do mathematically goes up geometrically, i.e.

work needed= (number of targets that can be defeated)X(number of different ways of being defeated)

so if you increase EITHER of the quantities in parentheses, the amount of work that creates increases by a number equal tot he number in the other parentheses.

w = mn

let n := n+1

so now

w = m(n+1)

so

w = mn + m

adding ONE new style of defeat that has to apply to all targets forces you to make a number of new emotes equal to the number of targets you have.

On the other hand, assuming that all humanoid targets are inherently similar enough that he new emotes are easily copied or replicated from one human target to another, that would save a lot of time, I guess.

Also, anything that just adds things like cuts, scorch marks, etc to the target could probably be applied as a skin or something.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

It might be tough to do battle damage well with the visual decoupling. Remember being burned can be frostbite, fire or acid. With all the visual options we will have for abilities it would be a lot of work to give every different enemy in the game a different battle damage effect for every different ability visual identity.

Radiac wrote:

Also, anything that just adds things like cuts, scorch marks, etc to the target could probably be applied as a skin or something.

More than likely, the type of effect your power has will have a set of damage decals associated with them that will likely also be dependent on what the color of your effect is. For example, shooting green fireballs will cause you to leave behind scorch marks with little green embers. These damage decals will likely be universally applied, though exceptions can be made based on what tags the NPC has. For example, shooting blue acid will cause corrosion to inorganic targets and angry burns to organic targets, with a blue tinge appearing on each to show the acid mixing with the target's own chemical makeup. (and/or some blue splash marks)

Brainbot wrote:

Why not just use ragdoll physics with modifiers for the type of attack used to defeat them.
A single force point at a random point on a defeated enemy when hit by a single attack, multiple force points for multiple hits, a force wave for explosive type attacks or whatever else needs be applied.

I couldn't agree more. CoX often just made NPC's ragdoll upon being defeated, with force modifiers being applied when some form of knockback/knockup effect was being applied. If a NPC ever uses a defeat animation, then it should be short and sweet and end with the NPC ragdolling like everyone else. (unless if they're gaseous/incorporeal, in which case they would most likely fade)

Radiac wrote:

Again, I think the defeat animation depends almost entirely on the target. You could give, say, robot targets different defeat animations based on what type of robot they are, and you could even go as far as to give the different robots different defeat animations based on that attack actually did the last point of damage that dropped them, but all of that is something that would be a property of the robot. It would be one of the emotes that particular robot can do, so to speak, I would expect.
So begin able to use your sword to always cut the target in half as the killing blow would be a tall order. You'd be putting that in for every possible target as one of that target's emotes, I would think. It seems like the less labor-intensive approach would be to give every target one or two different defeat emotes and leave it at that.

I was thinking of doing this for specific costume parts, but the NPC's themselves would likely also have specific properties that would affect how powers would put them down. Choosing how they get destroyed based on the damage type (and the amount of damage) done to them would likely be the simplest method. For example, any robot killed using burning or electrical damage would explode into flames and die; heck, even corrosive burns can do it to circuitry thanks to the ions often found in acids and bases. However, robots killed by a slashing damage type might instead have limbs fall off of them, and smashing damage could crumple their armor and make them cough up a few cogs. And of course, freezing attacks in general should either turn the NPC into a statue or (if any physical/kinetic damage is dealt in conjunction with the attack) shatter them into ice cubes. We could even apply these animations to the players, letting them pick and choose what effects and animations play when their character bites the dust! (assuming they match the right skeleton, of course; a biped will not be able to play the same defeat animation as a centaur, for example)

But ultimately, I wouldn't try to work with death animations. I'd just ragdoll them and let the effects that apply to their ragdolls do all the talking. And if they need to do a little swan song before collapsing, I wouldn't get too concerned with specific animations- just a few emotes that should cover virtually all of the attacks that don't apply knockback/knockup effects.

So bearing that in mind, what do you think? I know it would be a pain to make every individual power have a specific effect on every individual NPC, but how far back should we cut the flash and fluff? Would it be easier to apply some effects that powers can do based on what the NPC is tagged as, or should the hit effects stay universal? Should NPCs have effects applied to them based on the damage done to them, or should we just stick with more universal decals and hit effects? Should we forgo specific animations and just let everyone ragdoll, or should we try to make them do an emote based on damage types?

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Cool vid, never saw this game

Cool vid, never saw this game before. Good example

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Just because I'm on a math

Just because I'm on a math kick :)

If you add a new target that needs all emotes and a new emote that all targets must have, then you get:

w = mn

m := m+1 ; n := n+1

so

w = (m+1)(n+1)

and using the good old "F.O.I.L. method" from high school algebra (YES! We finally found a use for it after all!) we get

w = mn + m + n + 1

and remember, m = number of target bodies, which is going to be a large number by necessity. The only way to make this more reasonable in terms of the work you have to do is keep the number of emotes to a minimum, which might require that not all targets can do all emotes. And then there's still the idea that the defeat emote you get from "living" or at least "human" target's should not look like outright death, but just "knocked down and unconscious" for teen rating reasons.

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AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

More than likely, the type of effect your power has will have a set of damage decals associated with them that will likely also be dependent on what the color of your effect is. For example, shooting green fireballs will cause you to leave behind scorch marks with little green embers. These damage decals will likely be universally applied, though exceptions can be made based on what tags the NPC has. For example, shooting blue acid will cause corrosion to inorganic targets and angry burns to organic targets, with a blue tinge appearing on each to show the acid mixing with the target's own chemical makeup. (and/or some blue splash marks).

Texture overlays are not that difficult to do. Its coming up with appropriate overlays for the ability's visuals, ones that not only work for the power type but also for a teen rating, that are hard. Anything too graphic on a human type enemy is not going to fly. Blood, burns and bullet holes in people are not going to be something we will see. MWM will probably keep the teen rating if they use blood, burns and bullets hole texture overlays on non-humans like robots or monsters but that would only draw attention to the lack of them on humans IMO. Texture overlays are not useful for clothing damage, denting in robots or broken armor. They require texture swapping or in some cases model swapping.
Texture overlays are not a good option when you consider the games rating, limits in what they can do and what they can be used for.
The example you give of green fire embers would be done with particle effects and would be part of the ability's animation. It would not change based on the target without putting in more work than the effect is worth IMO.

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

I couldn't agree more. CoX often just made NPC's ragdoll upon being defeated, with force modifiers being applied when some form of knockback/knockup effect was being applied. If a NPC ever uses a defeat animation, then it should be short and sweet and end with the NPC ragdolling like everyone else. (unless if they're gaseous/incorporeal, in which case they would most likely fade).

Ragdoll physics are everywhere now. It might be odd not to see them. I would like the ragdoll to have some better constraints than most games use though. I don't like the glitching, silly elasticity and random nature of most ragdoll physics. People who get knocked out don't find their legs spreading out in JCVD splits and they never glitch into their own bodies. Even if they didn't have the constraints I still think this is the best way to convey an ability's effect on an enemy when defeated. Seeing a cool Willem dafoe in platoon defeat animation, without the blood and guts, would make me happy.
I agree that defeat animations should be short but I would go further and limit them to just special enemies. I would get annoyed with defeat animations quickly if every guy I punched went into some goofy death crawl. Peggle wouldn't be as good if Ode to Joy played after every shot instead of just when you beat a level and defeat animations are not good if overused. Leave a defeat animation for the special foes and it becomes a reward instead of an annoyance.

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Is it possible to give joints

Is it possible to give joints in the ragdoll physics a stiffness? Like not just a range of motion limit, but something like a spring constant or coefficient of restitution that tells the game how easy or hard it is to make that joint move, and which causes it to spring back to it's repose position/shape?

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Silent Sillo wrote:
Silent Sillo wrote:

Cool vid, never saw this game before. Good example

Thanks. It's also used in Max Payne to indicate the death of the last guy in a battle but all the videos I found of that were at least 5 minutes long and the effect wasn't until the end.
I'm not sure if it would work well in city of titans but it does show a simple way to make a special foes defeat stand out from the mobs of faceless enemies that isn't a jarring as an immediate cutscene or annoying Hamlet-like death spasm.

On a side note, Max Payne makes good use of force targets on ragdoll models defeats. In that game where the bullet hits is where the force target is applied so every enemies death is unique and appropriate. The game still needs more constraint on its ragdolls but its better than most.
That type of ragdoll with force target effect could be done even in a game where you don't have aim mechanics. Each ability would have a force manipulator built in to its mechanics depending on the ability type. It can be as simple as having three or four types of force manipulators in total. One for concentrated hits like punches, kicks or single bullets. One for small blasts like shotguns or eye beams. One for big blasts like grenades or fireballs. And if need be another for special types of abilities that don't fit with the others, like full auto machine guns or telekinesis.
I know I keep harping on about ragdoll physics. Its only because in most cases ragdoll physics are used poorly and would like to see them be better represented.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Is it possible to give joints in the ragdoll physics a stiffness? Like not just a range of motion limit, but something like a spring constant or coefficient of restitution that tells the game how easy or hard it is to make that joint move, and which causes it to spring back to it's repose position/shape?

They can, but its not easy to do. I read that most of those glitches where you see enemies go flying off or keep jiggling around are because the constraints are trying to tell the model to do one thing and the ragdoll physics are trying to tell it to do another. In most cases its easier for the programmers to use little constraints and accept it won't always look real. Eventually someone will come up with the way to do it well and we won't see the odd ragdoll stuff much if at all.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Radiac wrote:
Is it possible to give joints in the ragdoll physics a stiffness? Like not just a range of motion limit, but something like a spring constant or coefficient of restitution that tells the game how easy or hard it is to make that joint move, and which causes it to spring back to it's repose position/shape?
They can, but its not easy to do. I read that most of those glitches where you see enemies go flying off or keep jiggling around are because the constraints are trying to tell the model to do one thing and the ragdoll physics are trying to tell it to do another. In most cases its easier for the programmers to use little constraints and accept it won't always look real. Eventually someone will come up with the way to do it well and we won't see the odd ragdoll stuff much if at all.

Brainbot has it just about right.
As to having textured-applied effects based on power effects being used, we do have a subsystem in our power designer we can use to apply these things though we (currently) have no plans to include it. It is there for use in some other stuff and allows for the possibility of textured-applied effects, but those aren't in our current design scope.


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This makes me think of Tenchu

This makes me think of Tenchu. It allowed stealth kills to have a separate reaction and focus, than regular kills. Max Payne was ahead of it's time. Don't forget the headshot from Siphon Filter

Brainbot wrote:

Silent Sillo wrote:
Cool vid, never saw this game before. Good example
Thanks. It's also used in Max Payne to indicate the death of the last guy in a battle but all the videos I found of that were at least 5 minutes long and the effect wasn't until the end.
I'm not sure if it would work well in city of titans but it does show a simple way to make a special foes defeat stand out from the mobs of faceless enemies that isn't a jarring as an immediate cutscene or annoying Hamlet-like death spasm.
On a side note, Max Payne makes good use of force targets on ragdoll models defeats. In that game where the bullet hits is where the force target is applied so every enemies death is unique and appropriate. The game still needs more constraint on its ragdolls but its better than most.
That type of ragdoll with force target effect could be done even in a game where you don't have aim mechanics. Each ability would have a force manipulator built in to its mechanics depending on the ability type. It can be as simple as having three or four types of force manipulators in total. One for concentrated hits like punches, kicks or single bullets. One for small blasts like shotguns or eye beams. One for big blasts like grenades or fireballs. And if need be another for special types of abilities that don't fit with the others, like full auto machine guns or telekinesis.
I know I keep harping on about ragdoll physics. Its only because in most cases ragdoll physics are used poorly and would like to see them be better represented.

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I didn't want to give off the

I didn't want to give off the impression, I wanted human parts being be all over the place. I was referring to ghouls, robots, outer realm type beings, cars, walls, etc.

If a human-like being has armor or accessories that would be knocked, chopped, burned or crumbled.

I am not looking for a horror game. My intention is to elevate the bar for spontaneous instances in games. I just can't see another company beating COT to the punch.

From everyone's responses, I have educated on how to better word what I was asking about, thanks

Radiac wrote:

In CoX, when you defeated anything, it left an "unconscious" body behind in all cases, as far as I can remember. Those bodies were mostly window dressing but then there WERE some powers that actually interacted with them. The Warshade had a self-buff power that worked off of them, IIRC. So total destruction of the body upon defeat might not always happen, or even at all, maybe. On the other hand, some of the Vahzilok were walking toxic damage bombs that exploded on you. So I think the defeat animation might be more a function of the target than the attack used. I could see robots or something being smashed, exploding, falling to pieces, or even just falling down and then spawning a bunch of smaller robots, like the Clockwork Assembler Princes did.

RAN Ink

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As far as difficulty in labor

As far as difficulty in labor, technical details I don't know how it functions.
I can clearly see your examples of each type of character reacting to different elements used in attacks. Especially letting the player choose animations to go with them.

If I'm reading your question correctly, the hit damage should be based on what the NPC is tagged as.
If there is a base effect to go with their tagging, plus universal potential with added powers and leveling up. That should be achievable.

When you say "ragdoll", do you mean like knockback reactions?
I want to respond correctly to your question

"I was thinking of doing this for specific costume parts, but the NPC's themselves would likely also have specific properties that would affect how powers would put them down. Choosing how they get destroyed based on the damage type (and the amount of damage) done to them would likely be the simplest method. For example, any robot killed using burning or electrical damage would explode into flames and die; heck, even corrosive burns can do it to circuitry thanks to the ions often found in acids and bases. However, robots killed by a slashing damage type might instead have limbs fall off of them, and smashing damage could crumple their armor and make them cough up a few cogs. And of course, freezing attacks in general should either turn the NPC into a statue or (if any physical/kinetic damage is dealt in conjunction with the attack) shatter them into ice cubes. We could even apply these animations to the players, letting them pick and choose what effects and animations play when their character bites the dust! (assuming they match the right skeleton, of course; a biped will not be able to play the same defeat animation as a centaur, for example)

But ultimately, I wouldn't try to work with death animations. I'd just ragdoll them and let the effects that apply to their ragdolls do all the talking. And if they need to do a little swan song before collapsing, I wouldn't get too concerned with specific animations- just a few emotes that should cover virtually all of the attacks that don't apply knockback/knockup effects.

So bearing that in mind, what do you think? I know it would be a pain to make every individual power have a specific effect on every individual NPC, but how far back should we cut the flash and fluff? Would it be easier to apply some effects that powers can do based on what the NPC is tagged as, or should the hit effects stay universal? Should NPCs have effects applied to them based on the damage done to them, or should we just stick with more universal decals and hit effects? Should we forgo specific animations and just let everyone ragdoll, or should we try to make them do an emote based on damage types?"

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Silent Sillo wrote:
Silent Sillo wrote:

When you say "ragdoll", do you mean like knockback reactions?
I want to respond correctly to your question.

Who are you talking about?

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I believe it was Days of

I believe it was Days of Future Past that featured several very grisly endings for a group of mutants that were attempting defend the professor from destruction by the sentinels. One poor mutant had his/her head incinerated. Colossus was torn limb from limb IIRC. These were not alluded too, they were directly depicted. This was in a PG-13 movie. So there is some precedent for this type of effect in the rating class. There are several other games where a defeat does carry more of an effect than they-pass-out-and-tumble-to-the-floor.

I don't think it's beyond reason to say if a character is defeated by a lightning they might show some sparks or little arcs jumping off their defeated body for a few seconds. Or if a character is defeated by fire that might leave them "painted" in an ash and embers texture over their standard model with perhaps a few wisps of smoke. We don't have to remove limbs or portray anything ghastly but it's well within reason and rating to apply some fun defeat effects that go beyond they-pass-out-and-tumble-to-the-floor.

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Big budget movie companies

Big budget movie companies get a different rating than low budget companies. A rating was even invented so kids could still see Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. There are a lot of articles and documentaries on the subject of big budget bias in the MPAA.

Games have an even harder time in most cases because governments of various countries have instituted oversight and don't always agree with the ESRB. I can point out many games that were banned in other countries until changes were made or things were omitted.

I don't think adding any overt signs of violence beyond pass-out-and-tumble-to-the-floor is going to add enough to the game to make it worth the possibility that some watchdog group takes offense.

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Pardon, that question was for

Pardon, that question was for
AAlbusUUmbra

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Silent Sillo wrote:
Silent Sillo wrote:

As far as difficulty in labor, technical details I don't know how it functions.
I can clearly see your examples of each type of character reacting to different elements used in attacks. Especially letting the player choose animations to go with them.

:D

Silent Sillo wrote:

If I'm reading your question correctly, the hit damage should be based on what the NPC is tagged as.
If there is a base effect to go with their tagging, plus universal potential with added powers and leveling up. That should be achievable.

Yeah, the only thing that might be a problem is just getting all the tags to react to a brand-new power property... and giving NPC's new tags as development continues. Unless if the new powers use previously-created effects for different tags, (or the new tags use previously-created effects for different powers) then it might be a bit of a headache to implement. I trust that we shouldn't have to go too far to implement new effects, given that UE4 can do for us, especially is universal effects can be implemented in a great number of cases. (ex. everyone freezes when KO'd with an ice spell)

Silent Sillo wrote:

When you say "ragdoll", do you mean like knockback reactions?
I want to respond correctly to your question

Not in this instance. I'm just referring to when the NPC goes limp after getting defeated.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

I don't think it's beyond reason to say if a character is defeated by a lightning they might show some sparks or little arcs jumping off their defeated body for a few seconds. Or if a character is defeated by fire that might leave them "painted" in an ash and embers texture over their standard model with perhaps a few wisps of smoke. We don't have to remove limbs or portray anything ghastly but it's well within reason and rating to apply some fun defeat effects that go beyond they-pass-out-and-tumble-to-the-floor.

+1.

As long as the initial part of the animation is distinguishable, meaning, you can tell what's happening... Falling to the floor animation starts with them dropping to their knees in the 1st second (for stationary Foe's). Rest of the animation I won't really look at, as i'll be speeding to the next Foe. ;)

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I have to admit, I did Love

I have to admit, I did Love seeing my foes 'splashed' against the walls and fences by ragdoll, though it did, occasionally, lead to some disturbing images.

Be Well!
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AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

Silent Sillo wrote:
As far as difficulty in labor, technical details I don't know how it functions.
I can clearly see your examples of each type of character reacting to different elements used in attacks. Especially letting the player choose animations to go with them.
:D
Silent Sillo wrote:
If I'm reading your question correctly, the hit damage should be based on what the NPC is tagged as.
If there is a base effect to go with their tagging, plus universal potential with added powers and leveling up. That should be achievable.
Yeah, the only thing that might be a problem is just getting all the tags to react to a brand-new power property... and giving NPC's new tags as development continues. Unless if the new powers use previously-created effects for different tags, (or the new tags use previously-created effects for different powers) then it might be a bit of a headache to implement. I trust that we shouldn't have to go too far to implement new effects, given that UE4 can do for us, especially is universal effects can be implemented in a great number of cases. (ex. everyone freezes when KO'd with an ice spell)
Silent Sillo wrote:
When you say "ragdoll", do you mean like knockback reactions?
I want to respond correctly to your question
Not in this instance. I'm just referring to when the NPC goes limp after getting defeated.

Ok, I understand now. I think your reference to emote damage sound cool. I am leaning more towards that.
For example, my character uses shadow powers.
What if after he clears his enemies gauge, a worm hole appears under them?

He could leave them trapped in a shadow orb till they respawn.
Are these examples considered emote damage or ragdoll?

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

I believe it was Days of Future Past that featured several very grisly endings for a group of mutants that were attempting defend the professor from destruction by the sentinels. One poor mutant had his/her head incinerated. Colossus was torn limb from limb IIRC. These were not alluded too, they were directly depicted. This was in a PG-13 movie. So there is some precedent for this type of effect in the rating class. There are several other games where a defeat does carry more of an effect than they-pass-out-and-tumble-to-the-floor.
I don't think it's beyond reason to say if a character is defeated by a lightning they might show some sparks or little arcs jumping off their defeated body for a few seconds. Or if a character is defeated by fire that might leave them "painted" in an ash and embers texture over their standard model with perhaps a few wisps of smoke. We don't have to remove limbs or portray anything ghastly but it's well within reason and rating to apply some fun defeat effects that go beyond they-pass-out-and-tumble-to-the-floor.

Great example, i ageee. Not sure what the comic book ratings were, but many showed graphic detail similar to what you described. I have Wolverine comics with blood from impaling.
So, I don't think we would be our of line with what we're asking for.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

I don't think it's beyond reason to say if a character is defeated by a lightning they might show some sparks or little arcs jumping off their defeated body for a few seconds. Or if a character is defeated by fire that might leave them "painted" in an ash and embers texture over their standard model with perhaps a few wisps of smoke. We don't have to remove limbs or portray anything ghastly but it's well within reason and rating to apply some fun defeat effects that go beyond they-pass-out-and-tumble-to-the-floor.

You do have a point there but I think those kinds of effects should not be limited to just defeat.

Setting someone on fire should at least make them smolder, probably have small flames or similar.
Stunning someone by electricity should have little arcs jumps around on them.
And so on.

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People should really look at

People should really look at the ESRB to see what they focus on.

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Silent Sillo wrote:
Silent Sillo wrote:

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
Silent Sillo wrote:
As far as difficulty in labor, technical details I don't know how it functions.
I can clearly see your examples of each type of character reacting to different elements used in attacks. Especially letting the player choose animations to go with them.
:D
Silent Sillo wrote:
If I'm reading your question correctly, the hit damage should be based on what the NPC is tagged as.
If there is a base effect to go with their tagging, plus universal potential with added powers and leveling up. That should be achievable.
Yeah, the only thing that might be a problem is just getting all the tags to react to a brand-new power property... and giving NPC's new tags as development continues. Unless if the new powers use previously-created effects for different tags, (or the new tags use previously-created effects for different powers) then it might be a bit of a headache to implement. I trust that we shouldn't have to go too far to implement new effects, given that UE4 can do for us, especially is universal effects can be implemented in a great number of cases. (ex. everyone freezes when KO'd with an ice spell)
Silent Sillo wrote:
When you say "ragdoll", do you mean like knockback reactions?
I want to respond correctly to your question
Not in this instance. I'm just referring to when the NPC goes limp after getting defeated.
Ok, I understand now. I think your reference to emote damage sound cool. I am leaning more towards that.
For example, my character uses shadow powers.
What if after he clears his enemies gauge, a worm hole appears under them?
He could leave them trapped in a shadow orb till they respawn.
Are these examples considered emote damage or ragdoll?

If a wormhole appears under an enemy and swallows them, whether or not it is an emote or a ragdoll depends on whether or not they follow a scripted motion (ie. flailing helplessly as they're sucked in) or if they just fall into the vortex completely unconscious. The shadow orb example would largely depend on whether or not there's a ragdoll inside of the orb, which if it's opaque would just be a waste of time; essentially, it would likely involve deleting the NPC's model altogether once it's "absorbed" into the orb and replacing it with a shadow orb model, which should have the added bonus of having a lot less polys in the mesh. (thereby reducing lag compared to if there was a ragdoll lying on the ground)

Does that answer your question?

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AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

Silent Sillo wrote:
AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
Silent Sillo wrote:
As far as difficulty in labor, technical details I don't know how it functions.
I can clearly see your examples of each type of character reacting to different elements used in attacks. Especially letting the player choose animations to go with them.
:D
Silent Sillo wrote:
If I'm reading your question correctly, the hit damage should be based on what the NPC is tagged as.
If there is a base effect to go with their tagging, plus universal potential with added powers and leveling up. That should be achievable.
Yeah, the only thing that might be a problem is just getting all the tags to react to a brand-new power property... and giving NPC's new tags as development continues. Unless if the new powers use previously-created effects for different tags, (or the new tags use previously-created effects for different powers) then it might be a bit of a headache to implement. I trust that we shouldn't have to go too far to implement new effects, given that UE4 can do for us, especially is universal effects can be implemented in a great number of cases. (ex. everyone freezes when KO'd with an ice spell)
Silent Sillo wrote:
When you say "ragdoll", do you mean like knockback reactions?
I want to respond correctly to your question
Not in this instance. I'm just referring to when the NPC goes limp after getting defeated.
Ok, I understand now. I think your reference to emote damage sound cool. I am leaning more towards that.
For example, my character uses shadow powers.
What if after he clears his enemies gauge, a worm hole appears under them?
He could leave them trapped in a shadow orb till they respawn.
Are these examples considered emote damage or ragdoll?
If a wormhole appears under an enemy and swallows them, whether or not it is an emote or a ragdoll depends on whether or not they follow a scripted motion (ie. flailing helplessly as they're sucked in) or if they just fall into the vortex completely unconscious. The shadow orb example would largely depend on whether or not there's a ragdoll inside of the orb, which if it's opaque would just be a waste of time; essentially, it would likely involve deleting the NPC's model altogether once it's "absorbed" into the orb and replacing it with a shadow orb model, which should have the added bonus of having a lot less polys in the mesh. (thereby reducing lag compared to if there was a ragdoll lying on the ground)
Does that answer your question?

Yes and thank you.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

I believe it was Days of Future Past that featured several very grisly endings for a group of mutants that were attempting defend the professor from destruction by the sentinels. One poor mutant had his/her head incinerated. Colossus was torn limb from limb IIRC. These were not alluded too, they were directly depicted. This was in a PG-13 movie. So there is some precedent for this type of effect in the rating class. There are several other games where a defeat does carry more of an effect than they-pass-out-and-tumble-to-the-floor.
I don't think it's beyond reason to say if a character is defeated by a lightning they might show some sparks or little arcs jumping off their defeated body for a few seconds. Or if a character is defeated by fire that might leave them "painted" in an ash and embers texture over their standard model with perhaps a few wisps of smoke. We don't have to remove limbs or portray anything ghastly but it's well within reason and rating to apply some fun defeat effects that go beyond they-pass-out-and-tumble-to-the-floor.

Spoiler alert, eh? ;)

But, yeah, those were rather gruesome for PG-13, but not gruesome enough for R, maybe.

But I think beheading and dismembering may be inappropriate for human targets, esp. with blood.

And, if things so little as electric arcs on death from a lightning effect are all we ask for, it might not be worth the dev time.


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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

But, yeah, those were rather gruesome for PG-13, but not gruesome enough for R, maybe.

That's probably because of the weird rules of the rating system - you will notice that the guys dismembered were in a non-human form. Very gruesome, yes, and very likely on the edge - that probably took the place of the one F-Bomb you are allowed to have in a PG13 flick.

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"If we can't have the limb

"If we can't have the limb severing action, then why have anything at all?" If that is your argument Des', then nuts to it. That's no different than saying If we can't have a look exactly like Batman then we should only be colored balls and nothing more because it's too much work and not worth the effort. There is a happy middle ground that could be found that isn't going to push the game into a M rating and still allow for "something" more interesting than they-pass-out-and-tumble-to-the-floor. I offered a suggestion that I thought would be tasteful and worthwhile. The devs may decide that they can push that a little farther or they may decide even that is pushing the boundaries. Or the ESRB may decide that is pushing the boundaries.

I think it's pretty clear that dismemberment is going to be pushing the boundaries. And frankly, I don't want it. There are other games for that, see "Age of Conan." From what I remember of the AoC beta there was actually a substantial amount of work that went into getting that working right, as occasionally my head fell off while out of combat. More than passing a custom effect trigger on death. Admittedly, it took a long time to implement the custom portion that in COH but it wasn't being built from the ground up to support custom powers as is the case for COT.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

"If we can't have the limb severing action, then why have anything at all?" If that is your argument Des', then nuts to it. That's no different than saying If we can't have a look exactly like Batman then we should only be colored balls and nothing more because it's too much work and not worth the effort. There is a happy middle ground that could be found that isn't going to push the game into a M rating and still allow for "something" more interesting than they-pass-out-and-tumble-to-the-floor. I offered a suggestion that I thought would be tasteful and worthwhile. The devs may decide that they can push that a little farther or they may decide even that is pushing the boundaries. Or the ESRB may decide that is pushing the boundaries.
I think it's pretty clear that dismemberment is going to be pushing the boundaries. And frankly, I don't want it. There are other games for that, see "Age of Conan." From what I remember of the AoC beta there was actually a substantial amount of work that went into getting that working right, as occasionally my head fell off while out of combat. More than passing a custom effect trigger on death. Admittedly, it took a long time to implement the custom portion that in COH but it wasn't being built from the ground up to support custom powers as is the case for COT.

All I said was that it might not be worth the dev time to give a special death to every aestetic. It'd be cool, but I dont think it'd be worth it.


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