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Question for the Devs: Sides vs Alignment Matrix

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Cinnder
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Question for the Devs: Sides vs Alignment Matrix

I've been reading over KS Update 17 on Alignment (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts/629385) and, like that picture that can look either like a young lady in a hat or an old crone depending on one's mindset, I can read it in either of two ways:

1) There will be "sides" as in CoX, such that when you create a character you decide whether he/she will be a Hero or a Villain (and maybe Scoundrel or Vigilante). This decision will set certain things in the mechanics of the game, possibly to include where one can travel, with whom one can team, etc. PvP will either pit the "sides" against one another or will be free-for-all. Within those "sides" a character can move around on the 3-axis alignment system, but -- outside the possibility of Going-Rogue-style mechanics -- the character stays on the "side" chosen at creation.

2) There will be no "sides" and all characters will live together on one giant 3-axis alignment system. Everyone can go everywhere (barring any possible level requirements).* Any character can team with any other character. PvP won't be based on predetermined "sides" but on however you want to team up at the time. One's actions will move one on the various axes and possibly affect faction reactions, but the terms "hero" and "villain" will just be labels with no actual underlying game mechanic associated.

Which of these is correct? Or is it none of the above?

Inquiring minds want to know!

* Or maybe certain areas of the city require a certain standing on one or another of the matrices.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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The way I see it, it seems

The way I see it, it seems more like a Star Wars Character. You start out as neutral towards the light or dark side and depending upon your actions and conversation answers it pushes you one way or the other. We see Heroes side with Villains in times of need to overcome some obstacle that is too big and too threatening to the way of life for all. Heroes and Villains can both set aside their differences for a while and share a common goal. Also there is that gray line of Rogue and Vigilante. In the real world we walk beside and work with heroes and villains all the time. We just never know it. You see people on the news all the time saying, "I lived right next door to the guy. Never knew he was such a monster that would do such a thing. He was the perfect neighbor. We'd greet each other every day before and after work." So I'd imagine it would be all one big population living side by side.

Now when it comes to missions that could be a bit tricky. I can't see a Hero going on a mission to steal money and kill innocent people just for the fun of it. So how people would team up like that would be interesting. I'd like to see how the devs would handle such a scenario. Would we be given the choice to leave the mission or try to stop the villain from stealing and killing? What would be the consequences involved in such a scenario? I can see where this could lead to some very interesting consequences. Perhaps this villain your hero unknowingly teamed with becomes your arch-nemesis. I can't, of course, answer for the devs. So hopefully one will come along and give us a more concrete answer. This is just my .02 inf.

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Last I heard it was All of

Last I heard it was All of thee above.

As in when creating a character you can choose to start neutral or start off with a Villain or Hero. The very choice to Register already starts off the Axis system. From what I took the Hero and Villain tag is a form of reputation. If you are known for being unlawful and dishonest you be labeled a Villain.

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

Now when it comes to missions that could be a bit tricky. I can't see a Hero going on a mission to steal money and kill innocent people just for the fun of it. So how people would team up like that would be interesting. I'd like to see how the devs would handle such a scenario. Would we be given the choice to leave the mission or try to stop the villain from stealing and killing? What would be the consequences involved in such a scenario? I can see where this could lead to some very interesting consequences. Perhaps this villain your hero unknowingly teamed with becomes your arch-nemesis. I can't, of course, answer for the devs. So hopefully one will come along and give us a more concrete answer. This is just my .02 inf.

I guess a lot of this might depend on how much our initial axis alignment choices are fixed in stone or can be changed over time by character activity.

For instance let's say I create a character who starts off extremely hero-oriented but I want to play through a self-imposed arc where this character would eventually evolve towards being a villain. Will I be able to just start playing a bunch of "villain oriented" missions until my alignment slowly shifts towards the Dark Side or will I have to play through some kind of single "alignment switch" mission that'll make my alignment switch all the way from hero to villain in one quick step?

I'd prefer the gradual shift idea myself. With this if you didn't want to tinker with your alignment too much you might be able to play a handful of "questionable" missions without too many serious consequences. And it would let you choose exactly just how "good" or "evil" you want to be by slowly adjusting the kinds of missions you do over time.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Doctor Tyche
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The goal is the gradual shift

The goal is the gradual shift. If you are the goodey-goodey and join in a bank robbery mission, it impacts your alignment. If you are the died-in-the-wool enemy of the law and go out to save hostages, you get dragged up.

One mission will not change you completely, but like any reputation system, the more people witness you doing something, the more you shift.

Of course, imagine if there were, oh, some kind of disguise system, for living a double life.....

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

The goal is the gradual shift. If you are the goodey-goodey and join in a bank robbery mission, it impacts your alignment. If you are the died-in-the-wool enemy of the law and go out to save hostages, you get dragged up.
One mission will not change you completely, but like any reputation system, the more people witness you doing something, the more you shift.

This is good to hear. There's nothing wrong with the idea of playing a character from beginning to end with a static alignment. But I've always been more interested in playing characters who, for various reasons, explore various stages of morality by sailing through the grey waters in between good and evil. It'll be cool if CoT will actually allow us to make that kind of roleplay have real in-game consequences.

I would think there should be different kinds of advantages and disadvantages depending on if you choose to remain true to certain alignment positions versus shifting your loyalties across the alignment spectrum. In this way people who choose to "alignment hop" won't necessarily be any more or less better off than those people who choose to stay fixed in a certain alignment. The differences between shifting and staying true should be great enough though so that the decision to shift alignments would be a significant one that wouldn't be taken lightly.

Doctor Tyche wrote:

Of course, imagine if there were, oh, some kind of disguise system, for living a double life.....

If this kind of thing could be wrapped up into a greater overall Secret Identity system that would be very cool. It'd be neat to "pretend" to be a hero while all the while being secretly evil and have some way for the game to make it possible to have your "cover blown" and have to face the consequences of that.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

The goal is the gradual shift. If you are the goodey-goodey and join in a bank robbery mission, it impacts your alignment. If you are the died-in-the-wool enemy of the law and go out to save hostages, you get dragged up.
One mission will not change you completely, but like any reputation system, the more people witness you doing something, the more you shift.
Of course, imagine if there were, oh, some kind of disguise system, for living a double life.....

Thanks for the reply, but I'm still not clear on the original question. You've described alignment movement, but will there actually be hero and villain "sides" in terms of game mechanics, or is everyone in one big pool with the only variants being where one is on each of the 3 axes? I.e. even if we're all in one city, will there still be the separation of blueside and redside when it comes to such things as character creation, with whom one can team, PvP, what missions you can get, etc?

As for the disguises... whoa, cool!!!

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

The goal is the gradual shift. If you are the goodey-goodey and join in a bank robbery mission, it impacts your alignment. If you are the died-in-the-wool enemy of the law and go out to save hostages, you get dragged up.
One mission will not change you completely, but like any reputation system, the more people witness you doing something, the more you shift.
Of course, imagine if there were, oh, some kind of disguise system, for living a double life.....

Ohhhhhhhhh you TEASE!

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Just a guess, but this is the

Just a guess, but this is the vision I am seeing in my twisted mind based on the info provided:

Your character, for all intents and purposes, is a villian and we will call him Dr. Evil (TM). He gets his evil layer, his evil PVP, and his evil access/restrictions. However, you choose to accept a save the hostage mission. You will be allowed to complete this mission under the guise of the hero Austin Powers (TM). Durring the mission you will be presented with choices which will affect your axis alignment. With that, your actions good or evil will be witnessed by others. This will add-to or diminish your official Hero/Villian standing. So if in the process of the mission you choose to steal the death ray schematics and abandon the hostages. "Austin Powers" will gain noteriety towards being a villian, possibly revealing yourself as Dr. Evil.

Im hearing that the 3 axis alignment system will possibly be augmented by other game mechanics. So, my .02, I think there will be well defined heroes and villians, however there will be ways to access other content in the game and only your character will know your exact alignment untill you choose, or if you choose, to broadcast yourself to the world.

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I don't want to see the

I don't want to see the alignment system have any impact on whether characters are heroes or villains in the metagame. Certainly, the alignment will be an indicator that some characters are closer to the hero/villain divide than others, but whether or not that shift happens should be a conscious choice. In other words, I don't want the alignment system to be a mini-game that I have to track lest helping that little old lady across the road suddenly 'dings' me into hero territory.

Much as Lothic suggested, I would like heroes or villains to be as black, white, dark grey, or light grey as they care to be, but to remain heroes or villains unless a specific effort (by way of appropriate missions / story arcs) is made to make the shift.

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Quote:
Quote:

2) There will be no "sides" and all characters will live together on one giant 3-axis alignment system. Everyone can go everywhere (barring any possible level requirements).* Any character can team with any other character. PvP won't be based on predetermined "sides" but on however you want to team up at the time. One's actions will move one on the various axes and possibly affect faction reactions, but the terms "hero" and "villain" will just be labels with no actual underlying game mechanic associated.

I really, really, really hope they go down this route and integrate the hero/villain side of things and allow teaming. Even if each mission just comes down to a moral choice at the end although i'd also like decisions you can make along the way affecting your heroic/villanous stance: eg heroic for braking off the persuit of the mission to save some civilians and villainous if you ignore them/kill them.

One of the few things cryptic got wrong in my opinion was splitting heroes and villains into seperate zones. I didn't like it and it never made sense to me really from a roleplay point of view - yes you can be a villain but only over here, and from a gameplay point of view it essentially halved the player base of coh as half moved to villains and created toons there.

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I'm imagining a graphical

I'm imagining a graphical gauge of some sort that shows your Status. (if you allow others to see yours?)

ex:
Blue Good (Plus value), Red Bad (Negative value)... Middle (Zero value, where we all start?) is murky.

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Venture wrote:
Venture wrote:

I really, really, really hope they go down this route and integrate the hero/villain side of things and allow teaming. Even if each mission just comes down to a moral choice at the end although i'd also like decisions you can make along the way affecting your heroic/villanous stance: eg heroic for braking off the persuit of the mission to save some civilians and villainous if you ignore them/kill them.

I know what you mean. That was my original interpretation of the KS update. It would be like the mutants in X-Men 2 teaming up to go into the base under the dam, but splitting up to pursue their own goals once inside.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

I don't want to see the alignment system have any impact on whether characters are heroes or villains in the metagame. Certainly, the alignment will be an indicator that some characters are closer to the hero/villain divide than others, but whether or not that shift happens should be a conscious choice. In other words, I don't want the alignment system to be a mini-game that I have to track lest helping that little old lady across the road suddenly 'dings' me into hero territory.
Much as Lothic suggested, I would like heroes or villains to be as black, white, dark grey, or light grey as they care to be, but to remain heroes or villains unless a specific effort (by way of appropriate missions / story arcs) is made to make the shift.

I understand your point about not wanting to have to monitor your degree of "heroness vs. villainess" so closely that you have to second guess every single action in the game lest you start shifting in a direction you don't want to go. But from the way it's sounding there's not really going to be any hardwired thresholds where if you cross that line you're suddenly going to be strictly considered a "hero" or a "villain".

For the sake of discussion let's assume we can simplify the 3-axis alignment system down to a single 1,000 point scale where if your character were rated a "1" you'd be the worse villain in the history of the universe and at "1,000" you'd be the most perfectly wonderful hero imaginable. Let's continue by saying you have a character who's rated at 800 on that hypothetical scale. Most people might consider that a pretty decent hero - maybe not perfectly heroic, but fairly solid. Now let's say you run a mission where you help a little old lady cross the street: that might get you to 801. On the other hand let's say you go to stop some bank robbers and in the process you decide to slip some stolen money into your pocket and you don't get caught doing it: that might shift you down to say 795. Next week you try to keep some stolen money again but this time you get caught: that might shift you down to say 750. Then for whatever reason you decide to get really naughty and kill the mayor during a parade: there's where you might lose like 250 points instantly.

The point of all this is that alignment in CoT should be a continuum of grayness that will shift one way or the other depending on the severity of the actions involved. Every action should potentially have SOME consequence one way or the other, but the absolute degree of consequence could vary between practically negligible to earth-shatteringly huge depending on the situation at hand.

Having established all that I could see where there might be additional ways players could influence how much certain actions could affect them. Maybe there could be certain skills or methods that could modify the potential outcomes. For instance maybe you could tip off the paparazzi to publicize your "help a little old lady across the street" maneuver and you'd get 2 Honorable points for that instead of one. Conversely for some weird reason you might want to distract the paparazzi in some harmless way so that you can help the little old lady in secret and get the benefit of doing that without affecting your alignment at all. In the bank scenario you might be able pay off (more Unlawful points) or intimidate (more Violent points) the bank guards to change how you progress through that situation.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Yeah, Lothic, that's what I

Yeah, Lothic, that's what I was thinking if Interpretation #2 is correct...but is it? Still hoping for further clarity on that.

Regardless, surely tipping off the paparazzi would be a minus action! :-)

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Regardless, surely tipping off the paparazzi would be a minus action! :-)

Not if you give them a tip that leads them to their doom!

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Or tell them where Lindsay

Or tell them where Lindsay Lohans drinking that's a + 1

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:-) x 2

:-) x 2

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In all of this, nobody's ever

In all of this, nobody's ever considered a third option:

That both 1 and 2 can exist.

Let me refine what I said earlier through example.

You are the Big Red Cheese (no affiliation with any Fawcett character implied) who is lawful and honest to the extreme. He is invited onto a team which is running a bank robbery mission. A warning box pops up, telling him "if you do this mission, you will lose lawful status rating points. Are you sure?" Now, the same team is later running a "Bust up a drug lab" mission, no warning label.

This can even apply per-faction. You run missions against the Unforgiven, but you have a high rating with them, it warns you.

As for being a "Hero" or "Villain" that depends on which side has a higher ranking. That's why the three-axis, instead of 2 or 4. Whichever side has 2 or 3 is your side. And again, warning when you hit that tipping point. "If you do this action, you will be labelled a Hero/Villain and treated accordingly." There are some travel restrictions, you go in to villain dominated areas as a hero, you will get rebuffed, same as a villain going into hero areas. But these areas are planned to be small, not the dramatic split as there was in CoH.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

In all of this, nobody's ever considered a third option:
That both 1 and 2 can exist.
Let me refine what I said earlier through example.
You are the Big Red Cheese (no affiliation with any Fawcett character implied) who is lawful and honest to the extreme. He is invited onto a team which is running a bank robbery mission. A warning box pops up, telling him "if you do this mission, you will lose lawful status rating points. Are you sure?" Now, the same team is later running a "Bust up a drug lab" mission, no warning label.
This can even apply per-faction. You run missions against the Unforgiven, but you have a high rating with them, it warns you.
As for being a "Hero" or "Villain" that depends on which side has a higher ranking. That's why the three-axis, instead of 2 or 4. Whichever side has 2 or 3 is your side. And again, warning when you hit that tipping point. "If you do this action, you will be labelled a Hero/Villain and treated accordingly." There are some travel restrictions, you go in to villain dominated areas as a hero, you will get rebuffed, same as a villain going into hero areas. But these areas are planned to be small, not the dramatic split as there was in CoH.

I infer, then, that there will be a certain number of "Hero Only" and "VIllain Only" areas, but that the majority of territory will be "Neutral"? And when you say "rebuffed", I wonder by whom? Will the average denizens of a "Villain Area" notice and turn immediately against a Hero? Or will they just get sarcastic remarks instead of missions from NPC's?

Maybe my questions are too specific at this early date.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

In all of this, nobody's ever considered a third option:
That both 1 and 2 can exist.
Let me refine what I said earlier through example.
You are the Big Red Cheese (no affiliation with any Fawcett character implied) who is lawful and honest to the extreme. He is invited onto a team which is running a bank robbery mission. A warning box pops up, telling him "if you do this mission, you will lose lawful status rating points. Are you sure?" Now, the same team is later running a "Bust up a drug lab" mission, no warning label.
This can even apply per-faction. You run missions against the Unforgiven, but you have a high rating with them, it warns you.
As for being a "Hero" or "Villain" that depends on which side has a higher ranking. That's why the three-axis, instead of 2 or 4. Whichever side has 2 or 3 is your side. And again, warning when you hit that tipping point. "If you do this action, you will be labelled a Hero/Villain and treated accordingly." There are some travel restrictions, you go in to villain dominated areas as a hero, you will get rebuffed, same as a villain going into hero areas. But these areas are planned to be small, not the dramatic split as there was in CoH.

If I'm reading it right, it sounds like all characters will be on one huge 3-axis matrix, yet where you are on that matrix determines which of the two traditional "sides" you are on. E.g. if 2 of* 3 of the axes are to the hero side, then you're a hero. And whether you are (currently) a hero or a villain does indeed have an effect in game mechanics, as in where you can travel.

Is this correct, Doc?

*I'm assuming that "or" was a typo in your post

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Ill probably a bit of a

Ill probably a bit of a goodie two shoes or start out bad and run down redemption lane. But I'm just curious what you would call a dishonest Violent character who is vary law abiding? Not quite a vigilante not a scoundrel maybe a militant?

Good is not something you are, its something you do.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

In all of this, nobody's ever considered a third option:
That both 1 and 2 can exist.
Let me refine what I said earlier through example.
You are the Big Red Cheese (no affiliation with any Fawcett character implied) who is lawful and honest to the extreme. He is invited onto a team which is running a bank robbery mission. A warning box pops up, telling him "if you do this mission, you will lose lawful status rating points. Are you sure?" Now, the same team is later running a "Bust up a drug lab" mission, no warning label.
This can even apply per-faction. You run missions against the Unforgiven, but you have a high rating with them, it warns you.
As for being a "Hero" or "Villain" that depends on which side has a higher ranking. That's why the three-axis, instead of 2 or 4. Whichever side has 2 or 3 is your side. And again, warning when you hit that tipping point. "If you do this action, you will be labelled a Hero/Villain and treated accordingly." There are some travel restrictions, you go in to villain dominated areas as a hero, you will get rebuffed, same as a villain going into hero areas. But these areas are planned to be small, not the dramatic split as there was in CoH.

I like the multiple faction idea. An individual may align their ideas with that of a faction, which they may think is good while another person believes it be evil. Kind of a 50 shades of grey depending on perspective.

With such a system, I could see warring factions where if you up rep with one side the other dislikes you. Accordingly the rewards and available missions from factions could change to reflect that rep. You no longer are in two camps of good or bad, but in a individual faction of your own by your own adventure.

Example, I could support the police and rogue faction that is antibiotechnology, but have said corporation out to put me down with the help of a mercenary group aligned with the military.

Another person may be heavily aligned toward the same mercenary group because they support their anti terrorist hardline, but hated by antiterrorist groups.

A third person may be liked by the biocorp and the police, but aligned against the anticorp folks.

This also opens up many replayability paths than just powers. The city could respond in so many different combinations to your choices, maybe even altering the same mission differently based on the team mission owners choices vs if a different person started.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
In all of this, nobody's ever considered a third option:
That both 1 and 2 can exist.
Let me refine what I said earlier through example.
You are the Big Red Cheese (no affiliation with any Fawcett character implied) who is lawful and honest to the extreme. He is invited onto a team which is running a bank robbery mission. A warning box pops up, telling him "if you do this mission, you will lose lawful status rating points. Are you sure?" Now, the same team is later running a "Bust up a drug lab" mission, no warning label.
This can even apply per-faction. You run missions against the Unforgiven, but you have a high rating with them, it warns you.
As for being a "Hero" or "Villain" that depends on which side has a higher ranking. That's why the three-axis, instead of 2 or 4. Whichever side has 2 or 3 is your side. And again, warning when you hit that tipping point. "If you do this action, you will be labelled a Hero/Villain and treated accordingly." There are some travel restrictions, you go in to villain dominated areas as a hero, you will get rebuffed, same as a villain going into hero areas. But these areas are planned to be small, not the dramatic split as there was in CoH.

If I'm reading it right, it sounds like all characters will be on one huge 3-axis matrix, yet where you are on that matrix determines which of the two traditional "sides" you are on. E.g. if 2 of* 3 of the axes are to the hero side, then you're a hero. And whether you are (currently) a hero or a villain does indeed have an effect in game mechanics, as in where you can travel.
Is this correct, Doc?
*I'm assuming that "or" was a typo in your post

whoops, yes, a typo.

By putting the baseline this way, we can refine it through testing to further determine cut-offs, what all of you feel is "right" for a system. This is one area which we know will need major tweaks after we start letting all of you play with it, so we're keeping it very generic for now. Leaves us lots of wiggleroom for adusting.

Technical Director

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Your proposed system sounds

Your proposed system sounds interesting, but I predict that it will end up using more development hours than you expect. The key complication with objective alignment systems is that very few acts can be classified objectively without regard to context.

For example, most people would agree that killing a baby is an evil thing to do. However, what if that child is destined to bring about the end of the world? Many people still would argue that an innocent's life is wrong to take, that prophecies may go awry, etc. And yet, in this second scenario, surely some would argue that killing the child is the lesser of two evils, and perhaps even an objectively good thing to do.

I don't pretend to know the absolutely right answer to this dilemma, but that's exactly the point. Does anyone? Would such an act add or subtract from "lawful?" What if the Supreme Court ruled that sacrificing one child is an acceptable cost of saving the world from certain doom? So is sacrificing an innocent honorable? Is it violent? What if the act is done by lethal injection, and the parents ask you to do so?

Do you intend to show the exact alignment consequences of each choice right on the dialogue interface? Will there be many true logical dilemmas (e.g. a choice between -100 Lawful and -100 Honorable)? What about [ESC]aping from the dialogue interface before the dialogue ends?

Will alignment effects depend on the character's alignment? For example, in some alignment systems, actions move one toward neutrality faster than toward either end of a scale. Other systems move one toward evil quickly and easily, but make redemption much more difficult.

To the extent that I have an opinion at this point, I advise moderation. Supers should have a bit more freedom in this regard than might be appropriate for City of Theologians.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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CallmeBlue wrote:
CallmeBlue wrote:

For example, most people would agree that killing a baby is an evil thing to do. However, what if that child is destined to bring about the end of the world? Many people still would argue that an innocent's life is wrong to take, that prophecies may go awry, etc. And yet, in this second scenario, surely some would argue that killing the child is the lesser of two evils, and perhaps even an objectively good thing to do.

Of course the Good guys would try not to take the childs life... but in the end... the Bad guys, acting in their own greedy interests (preserving the world just so they can exploit it later), would somehow succeed in taking the world ending childs life. Good guys would be sad, but in a way glad. :P

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

CallmeBlue wrote:
For example, most people would agree that killing a baby is an evil thing to do. However, what if that child is destined to bring about the end of the world? Many people still would argue that an innocent's life is wrong to take, that prophecies may go awry, etc. And yet, in this second scenario, surely some would argue that killing the child is the lesser of two evils, and perhaps even an objectively good thing to do.

Of course the Good guys would try not to take the childs life... but in the end... the Bad guys, acting in their own greedy interests (preserving the world just so they can exploit it later), would somehow succeed in taking the world ending childs life. Good guys would be sad, but in a way glad. :P

siderant
If you can take the world-ending child's life, he was clearly not destined to end the world. So the bad guys just committed murder of an innocent, and are on most of my heroes' lists to be given at most one chance to surrender. ^_^
/siderant

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

... If you can take the world-ending child's life, he was clearly not destined to end the world. ...

In an entertainment title, you cant have Absolutes, but you Can lead people on. ;)
So No, technically he wasnt the world ending Child, but he did have the Capability and/or Opportunity to do it.

Or else what would be the point in struggling against a fate set in stone?!? :<

Heroes, go home. World is 100% going to end. No more fighting needed.






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I've seen a few disaster

I've seen a few disaster movies, but I don't recognize which of those had as the plot that to save the world a child had to be killed.

Now their was Loopers, but at the end of that one he found another way to save the woman he loved.

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CallmeBlue wrote:
CallmeBlue wrote:

Your proposed system sounds interesting, but I predict that it will end up using more development hours than you expect. The key complication with objective alignment systems is that very few acts can be classified objectively without regard to context.
For example, most people would agree that killing a baby is an evil thing to do. However, what if that child is destined to bring about the end of the world? Many people still would argue that an innocent's life is wrong to take, that prophecies may go awry, etc. And yet, in this second scenario, surely some would argue that killing the child is the lesser of two evils, and perhaps even an objectively good thing to do.
I don't pretend to know the absolutely right answer to this dilemma, but that's exactly the point. Does anyone? Would such an act add or subtract from "lawful?" What if the Supreme Court ruled that sacrificing one child is an acceptable cost of saving the world from certain doom? So is sacrificing an innocent honorable? Is it violent? What if the act is done by lethal injection, and the parents ask you to do so?
Do you intend to show the exact alignment consequences of each choice right on the dialogue interface? Will there be many true logical dilemmas (e.g. a choice between -100 Lawful and -100 Honorable)? What about [ESC]aping from the dialogue interface before the dialogue ends?
Will alignment effects depend on the character's alignment? For example, in some alignment systems, actions move one toward neutrality faster than toward either end of a scale. Other systems move one toward evil quickly and easily, but make redemption much more difficult.
To the extent that I have an opinion at this point, I advise moderation. Supers should have a bit more freedom in this regard than might be appropriate for City of Theologians.

Whether an action or inaction is considered good or evil is relative to the group in question. This is up to the writers to decide which beliefs fits that group's personality/objective, and gives us pockets of leverage to take advantage of while your growing our characters. I love this alignment system; it reminds me of Everquest's faction system. Except CoT's faction system is going to be far more interactive, and consequential. Like the classification/specification/mastery system we have in store, this optimizes and amplifies character replay, and more importantly (to me at at least), altism. This is our chance to expand our characters, and not be boxed in, but to move around as we would think our characters would. Or if one isn't into that much depth, they can just hack and slash.

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Besides it's not a Good Vs

Besides it's not a Good Vs Evil system. It's Lawful/Lawless, Violent/Peaceful, Honorable/dishonorable. So yes a hero could be lying to protect someone but that's not really dishonorable.

Lets take the baby thing again. It's Violent killing the child yes. Thought it's out of need so Honorable, and Lawful, Violent.

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Actually, as described, the

Actually, as described, the alignment system will determine good or evil. Remaining in one part of the phase space spanned by Law, Honor, and Violence will make you a hero, while travelling to another part will make you a villain, presumably with in-game effects.

No matter where the devs draw that border, someone will be unhappy that his or her character wound up on the wrong side of the divide. Likewise, there will be many quibbles with the precise numerical values assigned to each action or dialogue choice.

For that matter, people will argue persuasively that a creative use of their characters' powers ought to open up additional solutions to every choice. Telepathic powers alone can easily double or triple a dialogue tree by enabling Jedi Mind Tricks, illusions, and mind reading at every turn of a conversation. Will the game consider free use of nonlethal powers Violent?

OK, let's look at a particular example to help ground the discussion. The character who likely would be my main in this game originated from a number of PnP campaigns that I've run over the years. Based on his established personality, here's how I see him fitting in to the CoT alignment system:

First, he distrusts authority, especially when that authority oppresses or victimizes the weak. On the other hand, he also recognizes the right of other people to choose their own government, so he's definitely not an anarchist. Also, he's smart enough to avoid making unnecessary trouble for himself. Would I be right to guess that he'd wind up somewhere below average Lawfulness, but not at the far end of the scale?

Second, he takes personal commitments seriously, and tries to use his great power responsibly, Presumably that means he'd wind up with above-average Honor?

Now here's the area where I'm a bit concerned. He dislikes physical violence; is careful about collateral damage from his weather magic; and although he does not keep a true Code Versus Killing, generally tries to avoid doing so. On the other hand, he's not shy about reading the surface thoughts of everyone he meets; using Jedi Mind Tricks, illusions, and outright mind control if he or someone else is threatened; or probing or flat-out rebuilding the minds of people he considers a serious danger to others.

Now, in the Gygaxian system, I would guess that my character probably would be described best as "Chaotic Good." Where would he wind up in CoT?

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

The goal is the gradual shift. If you are the goodey-goodey and join in a bank robbery mission, it impacts your alignment. If you are the died-in-the-wool enemy of the law and go out to save hostages, you get dragged up.
One mission will not change you completely, but like any reputation system, the more people witness you doing something, the more you shift.
Of course, imagine if there were, oh, some kind of disguise system, for living a double life.....

here Questions if i make character he follow code of honor. prefers not to take the lives of anyone, unless the job demands it, and usually ends up apologizing for his actions afterwards. He is also very loyal to his employer, as long as he is under contract. But while in the presence of individuals who behave dishonorably, cheat, mock, or otherwise do not follow the rules, he displays a ruthless and highly brutal behavioral pattern. Where would he wind up in CoT 3-axis matrix?

whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster and when you look into the abyss, the abyss also look into you, -Friedrich

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

In all of this, nobody's ever considered a third option:
That both 1 and 2 can exist.
Let me refine what I said earlier through example.
You are the Big Red Cheese (no affiliation with any Fawcett character implied) who is lawful and honest to the extreme. He is invited onto a team which is running a bank robbery mission. A warning box pops up, telling him "if you do this mission, you will lose lawful status rating points. Are you sure?" Now, the same team is later running a "Bust up a drug lab" mission, no warning label.
This can even apply per-faction. You run missions against the Unforgiven, but you have a high rating with them, it warns you.
As for being a "Hero" or "Villain" that depends on which side has a higher ranking. That's why the three-axis, instead of 2 or 4. Whichever side has 2 or 3 is your side. And again, warning when you hit that tipping point. "If you do this action, you will be labelled a Hero/Villain and treated accordingly." There are some travel restrictions, you go in to villain dominated areas as a hero, you will get rebuffed, same as a villain going into hero areas. But these areas are planned to be small, not the dramatic split as there was in CoH.

All the +1s!


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I still like being able to

I still like being able to flag for Open World PvP with a dedicated group of players.

How does this work if my teammates don't even have the same alignment as me?

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Extra Credits: Enriching

Extra Credits: Enriching Lives https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iklM_djBeY and Extra Credits - Choices vs Consequences - What Player Decisions Mean in Games https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iklM_djBeY

whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster and when you look into the abyss, the abyss also look into you, -Friedrich

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I prefer to think of

I prefer to think of Alignment in the City of Titans context as being a 5 x 5 x 5 CUBE of possible range bands.

Max
Partial
Neutral
Partial
Max

You're not dealing with a single line (Hero vs Villain).
You're not dealing with two dimensional area (Lawful Good vs Chaotic Evil).
You're dealing with a three dimensional VOLUME of possibilities.

Hence, 5 x 5 x 5 ranges of alignments. Even if the ranges themselves have additional discrete "steps" within them, so that it takes time and effort to move "through" any particular range on a single alignment axis, you're still essentially dealing with what amounts to 5 "groupings" within each alignment axis.


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That's what I thought at

That's what I thought at first also, Red -- but from what MWM is saying it sounds like there will also be a determination of Hero vs Villain based on where you are in the cube. I'm not quite sure yet how the subtleties of the cube will keep from getting lost in the binary of the old sides.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Speaking just for myself, I'd

Speaking just for myself, I'd prefer it if Contacts for Missions only "cared" about 1 or 2 of your character's Alignment Axes and simply ignored the third (or was "flexible" about the third so as to make the third axis irrelevant). So 1 axis is "required" to be within a certain (set of) range band(s), another axis can "optionally" be within another (set of) range band(s) depending on the story being told (if the writer of the arc wants to restrict things), while the third axis is effectively "ignored" by the NPC. This could even be set up as a "Must Be (axis 1)" and "Can't Be (axis 2)" sort of arrangement for a specific Contact.

The Cracked Mirror NPC Contact, for example, only deals with Supers who are:

  • Max to Neutral Lawless
  • Not Max or Partial Dishonorable

The Spiffy Badge NPC Contact, for example, only deals with Supers who are:

  • Partial to Max Lawful
  • Not Max Violence

... and so on. This means that "What Is Heroic?" isn't defined in simplistic, single axis terms on a 1 dimensional continuum.


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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I still like being able to flag for Open World PvP with a dedicated group of players.
How does this work if my teammates don't even have the same alignment as me?

Jay, I seem to have missed the post or update to which you're referring. Could you please provide a link? While I never fault anyone else for wanting PvP play, I'm very much against ever participating in it myself so I'm very interested in learning more about that comment.

Thanks

CoyoteShaman