Announcements

Join the ongoing conversation on Discord: https://discord.gg/w6Tpkp2

Please read the current update for instructions on downloading the latest update. Players with Mac versions of the game will not be affected, but you will have a slightly longer wait for your version of the new maps. Please make a copy of your character folder before running the new update, just to make sure you don't lose any of your custom work.

It looks like we can give everyone a list of minimum specs for running City of Titans. Please keep in mind that this is 'for now' until we are able to add more graphics and other system refinements. Currently you will need :
Windows 10 or later required; no Intel integrated graphics like UHD, must have AMD or NVIDIA card or discrete chipset with 4Gb or more of VRAM
At least 16GB of main DRAM.
These stats may change as we continue to test.

To purchase your copy of the City of Titans Launcher, visit our store at https://store.missingworldsmedia.com/ A purchase of $50 or more will give you a link to download the Launcher for Windows or Mac based machines.

Playing As A Civilian

41 posts / 0 new
Last post
Elios Valoryn
Elios Valoryn's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 5 months ago
Joined: 02/27/2016 - 06:59
Playing As A Civilian

I'm not sure if this already is a forum, or if this was a concept in CoH, but I've been thinking about this for a while.

I was thinking that for certain missions, the player could use their civilian identity for towards their advantage.

Maybe, for instance, your civilian identity could be used as a stealth-esque type of play. Utilizing your civil identity to gather intelligence by eavesdropping on other civilians, breaking the ranks of criminal groups, etc

This is just an idea but I think it can work well in this game.

However I would like to know what you guys would like to see in civilian mode.

As foolish as this seems,

Gotem.

From ya boy, Elios.

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
You're not the only one to

You're not the only one to have had the idea of making a Secret Identity an optional/alternative way to play through certain content. The difficulty is that you need to create an entire "story" for doing that which branches off the more typical "beat 'em up" combat heavy way of doing things, and that isn't something that can be done for "free" in terms of development and debugging.

For what it's worth, I think it would be plenty cool to "go undercover" using your Secret Identity to get past some of the No Win Scenarios that can't be overcome with brute force. It would certainly make for a decent way to offer a way to "ninja" past certain obstacles for characters that lack Stealth or Invisibility ... by doing the next best thing, of blending into the background.

Probably only useful in an office or even laboratory setting, where you'd expect people to be coming and going, but still ...


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Kiyori Anoyui
Kiyori Anoyui's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 2 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/10/2013 - 11:03
IIRC, in one of the very

IIRC, in one of the very early updates on kickstarter, one talks about how you have the choice of how you want to complete a mission, they go on to talk about how you can do almost all missions(investigative missions at least) without any combat if that is how you want to play. I'll see if I can find it

The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One

Avatar by lilshironeko

Kiyori Anoyui
Kiyori Anoyui's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 2 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/10/2013 - 11:03
Pretty sure this is what I

The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One

Avatar by lilshironeko

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Redlynne wrote: You're not
Redlynne wrote:

The difficulty is that you need to create an entire "story" for doing that which branches off the more typical "beat 'em up" combat heavy way of doing things, and that isn't something that can be done for "free" in terms of development and debugging.

Sure there's the idea that a player would have to be in their Secret Identity for an entire mission. But another scenario is that maybe the only way to infiltrate a villain base is under cover as a civilian in order to get captured on purpose. You spend the first part of the mission as the "innocent victim" but then you break out of your confinement and have to fight your way back out. This would become a "jail break" type mission and ultimately it could be mostly combat oriented like most missions are. The extra trick for this type of mission could be that if you're killed you end up back in jail (at what amounts to the beginning of the mission) instead of going to the hospital. This is just one example of using a Secret Identity during a mission - I'm sure other ideas could be cooked up.
One interesting question to consider is whether a given Secret Identity mission would force you to be powerless or would it be up to the player if they wanted to roleplay that or not. We know that depending on your character concept some characters are literally powerless when in their Secret Identity mode (like when Bruce Banner is NOT the Hulk) but other characters (like Superman) technically always have their powers regardless of their Secret Identity. If the game forces you to be powerless it might annoy some people, but if the game presents a mission where it expects you to be under cover at certain points then how can they balance it if you decide to use powers when you're not supposed to. Personally I wouldn't mind if some missions forced you to be powerless at certain points, but again that would have be handled smartly in order to get everyone willing to deal with that.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

WarBird
WarBird's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 9 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/17/2013 - 19:11
In Champions Online there are

In Champions Online there are several missions where you go into locations under a 'disguise' of some sort. Usually a temp power that skins you to look like the dominant 'gang' inhabiting the mission map. It usually consists of going in, collecting some object or talking to an NPC and walking back out. No particular challenge, not especially engaging. I think the intent is to impart the idea that being a crime-fighter takes a modicum of detective work ::shrug:: I dunno.

The trick with this kind of mission, it seems to me, is in somehow challenging the player into doing something that is outside/beyond the scope of their normal 'power set' while still being fun, immersive and relevant to the story-line.

I could envision a mission where your disguise is 'imperfect' somehow, so you can pass amongst the crowd, but couldn't stand up to scrutiny from the security guards that are patrolling the corridors. SO you have to navigate the map while timing your movements to avoid passing within 10' of a guard. Otherwise your cover is 'blown' and the place goes into lockdown. (meaning you now cant get to your mission objective) You revert to your normal costume and have to fight your way back out (or you get beat down and thrown out). This results in an incomplete and you have to try again. OR you have to find a route through the maze that allows you to bypass the scanners/infra-red cameras/etc. that would dispel the illusion.

I would find something like that engaging, personally. But most of my favorite character concepts are from the under-powered/highly-skilled human column, so go figure. I can already hear the cries of "that doesn't fit my alienghostandroidkoala concept!"

I could also see a mission that allows you a way to get through it without using powers and staying incognito, but once your cover is blown, you just have to fight your way through. The challenge being how far you get before someone notices the cape tucked up in your pants. I could see a lot of players just figuratively knocking down the front door and ploughing thru the whole map with guns blazing. Cuz that's more fun for them anyhow. Kind of like the difference between how Batman and Superman approach things.

All that being said, I would point out that this type of a mission seems much more oriented to single play than with a team. Plus the Devs have already committed to giving us multiple entries and completion avenues, so that may be a thing, too.

So, we come full circle to "That would be cool! but tricky, so it would have to be carefully designed and maybe wouldn't appeal to everybody." LOL . Sounds familiar.

Foradain
Foradain's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/25/2013 - 21:06
WarBird wrote: ...I can
WarBird wrote:

...I can already hear the cries of "that doesn't fit my alienghostandroidkoala concept!"

Yes, Mr. Taylor would be quite disappointed... ^_^

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
Foradain's Character Conclave
.
Avatar courtesy of Satellite9 Irezoomie

Elios Valoryn
Elios Valoryn's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 5 months ago
Joined: 02/27/2016 - 06:59
WarBird wrote: So, we come
WarBird wrote:

So, we come full circle to "That would be cool! but tricky, so it would have to be carefully designed and maybe wouldn't appeal to everybody." LOL . Sounds familiar.

Sounds like everything I can think of.

As foolish as this seems,

Gotem.

From ya boy, Elios.

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Lothic wrote: Sure there's
Lothic wrote:

Sure there's the idea that a player would have to be in their Secret Identity for an entire mission. But another scenario is that maybe the only way to infiltrate a villain base is under cover as a civilian in order to get captured on purpose. You spend the first part of the mission as the "innocent victim" but then you break out of your confinement and have to fight your way back out. This would become a "jail break" type mission and ultimately it could be mostly combat oriented like most missions are. The extra trick for this type of mission could be that if you're killed you end up back in jail (at what amounts to the beginning of the mission) instead of going to the hospital. This is just one example of using a Secret Identity during a mission - I'm sure other ideas could be cooked up.
One interesting question to consider is whether a given Secret Identity mission would force you to be powerless or would it be up to the player if they wanted to roleplay that or not. We know that depending on your character concept some characters are literally powerless when in their Secret Identity mode (like when Bruce Banner is NOT the Hulk) but other characters (like Superman) technically always have their powers regardless of their Secret Identity. If the game forces you to be powerless it might annoy some people, but if the game presents a mission where it expects you to be under cover at certain points then how can they balance it if you decide to use powers when you're not supposed to. Personally I wouldn't mind if some missions forced you to be powerless at certain points, but again that would have be handled smartly in order to get everyone willing to deal with that.

Simplest way I can think of to work in the Powerless? (Y/N) while in Secret ID angle would be a simple checkbox on the Mission Accept UI. If you accept the Powerless? option, the Mission is "harder" (or more tedious, take your pick) and thus offers better rewards than the alternative.

Agreed with the "Jailbreak" idea (good one there, Lothic) where you "sneak" in so as to get captured in order to "bust" out from the inside in order to bypass a "crust" defense where the perimeter is too heavily guarded, but the interior is sparsely protected/patrolled.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Elios Valoryn
Elios Valoryn's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 5 months ago
Joined: 02/27/2016 - 06:59
WarBird wrote: I would find
WarBird wrote:

I would find something like that engaging, personally. But most of my favorite character concepts are from the under-powered/highly-skilled human column, so go figure. I can already hear the cries of "that doesn't fit my alienghostandroidkoala concept!"

I was thinking about this,

How could characters such as Silver Surfer, be able to make/use a hidden identity.
High tech masks which completely shape the body?
Shape shifter?
Possibly. But then again, the game is stated to have been planning on multiple routes.
Can they enter, then steal someone's clothes, such as Hitman?
But then you'd have to integrate a suspicion bar like Octodad just to make it fair and not too easy, just like you explained, something engaging.

As foolish as this seems,

Gotem.

From ya boy, Elios.

Nyxz
Nyxz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 5 months ago
Joined: 10/09/2015 - 03:37
Elios Valoryn wrote: WarBird
Elios Valoryn wrote:

WarBird wrote: I would find something like that engaging, personally. But most of my favorite character concepts are from the under-powered/highly-skilled human column, so go figure. I can already hear the cries of "that doesn't fit my alienghostandroidkoala concept!"I was thinking about this,How could characters such as Silver Surfer, be able to make/use a hidden identity.
High tech masks which completely shape the body?
Shape shifter?
Possibly. But then again, the game is stated to have been planning on multiple routes.
Can they enter, then steal someone's clothes, such as Hitman?
But then you'd have to integrate a suspicion bar like Octodad just to make it fair and not too easy, just like you explained, something engaging.

If they implemented such a disguise like CoX did the stealth power, then you wouldn't need an additional mechanism for suspicion. In CoX with just the stealth power, certain mobs were more perceptive and could penetrate the stealth ( disguise). So, in this case, ordinary civis in mission would not be able to see thru the disguise but guards would. If you use a power while in disguise in view of a civi or guard, then the disguise is dispelled.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Elios Valoryn wrote: How
Elios Valoryn wrote:

How could characters such as Silver Surfer, be able to make/use a hidden identity.

Usually whenever the subject of having a Secret Identity comes up in these forums one idea that gets talked about is whether or not the game will provide every character a free costume slot dedicated specifically for a "secret identity". The idea is that you'd always have a built-in costume ready to switch to whenever you needed it either for RP purposes or for perhaps when the game presents you with a Secret Identity mission like we're talking about here.
We could take this Secret ID costume slot one step further and add Redlynne's idea of a Powerless? (Y/N) toggle switch directly to this special costume slot. That way a player could specifically choose if they wanted their Secret Identity to be powerless whenever wearing the Secret ID costume regardless if it's in a mission or not.
Also for those characters like your Silver Surfer example that don't technically have a Secret ID you could always copy your standard costume into your Secret ID costume slot so that the game would use that whenever you entered a so-called Secret ID mission situation. Perhaps as long as you chose to be Powerless with the Powerless toggle while doing a Secret ID mission then it wouldn't matter that you didn't "look" like a civilian. Barring that you could always roleplay that you keep a holographic image generator (or Nyxz's disguise power suggestion) in your back pocket for just those times when your silvery alien needs to look like a normal human. *shrugs*
Bottomline having a dedicated Secret ID costume slot with a Powerless? (Y/N) toggle would provide players a lot of options for exactly how they’d want to handle having a Secret Identity for their character concept.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Elios Valoryn
Elios Valoryn's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 5 months ago
Joined: 02/27/2016 - 06:59
Interesting

Interesting

As foolish as this seems,

Gotem.

From ya boy, Elios.

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Lothic wrote: Bottomline
Lothic wrote:

Bottomline having a dedicated Secret ID costume slot with a Powerless? (Y/N) toggle would provide players a lot of options for exactly how they’d want to handle having a Secret Identity for their character concept.

Agreed. Interesting counterproposal.

In that case, the way I'd rig it is that every character begins with two costume slots to start with ... meaning make two costumes in the Avatar Builder before entering the game.

Costume Slot 1 = Secret ID
Costume Slot 2 = Hero/Villain ID

Costume Slot 1 has the additional Powerless? (Y/N) toggle applied to the costume slot(!), allowing Players to decide for themselves whether their Secret ID is "allowed" to use (super)Powers or not.

That then lays the foundation necessary for enabling some Mission content to REQUIRE that the Player(s) have to use Costume Slot 1 in order to enter the Mission, and that they're "not allowed" to Costume Change to Slots 2+ until certain conditions are met (such as the aforementioned "blown cover" development).

So like Lothic mentioned, there's simply an extra "RP" Costume Slot that everyone gets which is designed to be used as the Secret ID. There would be no prohibitions against "duplicating" the Costume in Slot 1 into any (or even all) of the other Costume Slots available on the Character, but only Slot 1 would have the Powerless? (Y/N) toggle on it for game mechanical reasons to support Missions where there is a story element of needing to "blend into the crowd" in order to get to where you need to be.

Note that doing things this way would then enable a whole raft of otherwise not possible things ... including "infiltrating" what would otherwise be considered "enemy" territory, provided that there are other Civilians in the area to use as camouflage. So a Hero could change into a Secret ID and walk through an area where the Foe NPCs would typically engage any Hero on sight, but because there are Civilians in the area (who don't get attacked and thus haven't been driven off), they won't automatically aggro onto a Hero in their Secret ID ... provided that their Secret ID isn't using any Superpowers within their Perception. Easiest way to accomplish that is the Powerless? (Y) option, to prevent mistakes, but the alternative is to be Powerless? (N) and simply NOT USE any Superpowers around Foe NPCs (so as to not "blow your cover").

That then opens up an entirely new avenue of being able to play the game, creates new opportunities for Storytelling and makes it possible for Heroes and Villains to "mingle" in some areas without immediate fear of retribution (although fear might still be justified if a mistake gets made). It prevents the game from turning into a "boolean rigid" split between Hero and Villain, or between Blue and Red if you prefer, and makes it possible for a sort of "spectrum play" that would not otherwise be available if the game just assumes your Character is "Super" ALL THE TIME regardless of circumstances.

And best of all, this sort of thing wouldn't prevent/preclude doing the kind of "Join the Freakshow" Temp Power costume camouflage stuff which lets you dress up as a member of a particular NPC Group in order to move among them without drawing aggro. Instead, it would just be another alternative to that sort of thing to have a Secret ID Costume Slot complete with a Powerless? (Y/N) toggle.

Alternatively, if you want to get REALLY pedantic and straight jacket yourself into the way City of Heroes did things, you could dispense with the whole Secret ID Costume Slot entirely and just use the Walk Toggle as being the "I'm in my Secret ID now" function, and let Players RP the rest of the situation however they see fit with their various Costume Slots.

The different choices here are linking the Secret ID to a Costume Slot or to a Toggle Power like Walk. The former still allows for the possibility of being "powered" while in Secret ID, while the latter "prevents" that option so long as the Powerless? (N) Toggle is activate (just like Walk did), but then it can be Toggled Off at any time (surprise!). Indeed, I'd even go so far as to say that the latter option ought to take the Walk Power functionality AS IS and simply rename it to be Secret ID if you wanted to go that route. That way, you've got something game mechanical which can be ... used ... to differentiate reactions of Foe NPCs to your Character without requiring a specific Costume Slot be engaged.

Decisions, decisions ... but at least there are options ...


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Redlynne wrote: Agreed.
Redlynne wrote:

Agreed. Interesting counterproposal.

I'm glad to see you like the Secret ID costume slot idea and you definitely fleshed out some good details to go along with it. For what it's worth people have been discussing the general concept since way back on the CoH forums - hopefully it'll finally be considered for CoT.
I'll just add a bit to what you brought up:
1) For the sake of keeping things simple I would set up the Avatar Builder so that it "linked/copied" any costume initially created for the first Hero/Villain ID slot into the Secret ID slot. The thinking here is that for those people who don't care about a Secret ID slot it would just always be identical to whatever the first Hero/Villain ID slot is. As soon as a player ever manually modified the Secret ID slot costume then the game would "unlink" the two slots so that the Secret ID slot would from then on be unique. A nice advantage of letting the game do this is that by the time a player wanted to customize the Secret ID slot all of the body proportion sliders would be predefined based on the first Hero/Villain ID slot settings - all you'd (likely) need to do is change the clothes to civies.
2) I agree that the "powerless" mode I was envisioning with this is similar to the side effects of the CoH Walk toggle. Obviously we don't know exactly how Walking will be implemented in CoT but for what it's worth I hope that if some kind of Powerless? (Y/N) toggle is implemented that we will still be able to move at the "default normal run" speed as well as Walk. Afterall even normal non-powered humans can run - being technically "powerless" should not limit us to only Walking. Taking this thought a bit further it might be reasonable to allow a small handful of designated Brawl-level item-based powers to work even while in "powerless" mode. For instance my Blaster might not be able use her Earth-melting Fire Blast powers but she might still be able to shoot a basic revolver or swing a baseball bat. Again even "powerless" normal humans can do things like swing their fists or use a knife. Just something extra to consider.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

WarBird
WarBird's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 9 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/17/2013 - 19:11
Let me preface that I would

Let me preface that I would love to have a free 'secret identity' slot. I usually dedicated just such a slot for most of my characters in CoH. I guess I'd be willing to do that again if I had a sufficient number of slots in CoT, and I'm happy to simply RP the differences in social situations. And the idea that you could occasionally use it to help fulfill certain types of missions would be neat.

However, my first take is that having a specialized 'unpowered' costume slot with an entire subset of 'civilian' type powers would basically constitute having a second character. That may be more complicated than it's worth. It just seems like a pretty 'scope-stretching' addition. I dunno. Besides, not up to me to determine the scope.

Still, I think most of us REALLY want and expect some kind of 'walk' toggle available in BOTH guises since keyboard movement doesn't give you the 'speed finesse' that a hand-held controller does. I'd even like the option of a few different walks to choose from like your "at rest" stance.

WarBird
WarBird's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 9 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/17/2013 - 19:11
I just had kind of an adjunct

I just had kind of an adjunct idea. Instead of calling it a 'secret identity' slot, call it an 'off-duty' slot. Just to satisfy those whose physiognomy doesn't allow their identity to be 'secret.' I suppose that 'Powers On/Off' toggle make sense, too. Didn't mention that above. If it was available from your initial character creation, I would support that even more.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
WarBird wrote: That may be
WarBird wrote:

That may be more complicated than it's worth.

I get that just having multiple general costume slots would allow you to RP a "Secret ID" if you wanted to without needing a dedicated slot for that. I also accept the concern that if they allowed for Brawl-like "civilian powers" (as you called them) then that would be approaching the margins of calling that a completely separate second character. These are valid points to consider.
As a compromise I could easily accept if they just gave us an "off-duty" slot, with the Powerless? (Y/N) toggle but with no extra "civilian powers". With that the version of "powerlessness" under this scheme would be absolute just like the side effect of CoH's Walk.
As far a Walking itself goes I also hope they implement a version of Walk that does NOT require us to be powerless. Having several different options/stances for Walking/Running should be available to us regardless of the unrelated issues of Secret IDs or whether or not you choose an off-duty costume slot to be powerless or not.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
For what it's worth, because

For what it's worth, because of the flexibility offered by the option, I'm leaning more towards a Civilian Toggle that achieves the Walk Toggle effect of shutting off Primary/Secondary/Tertiary and Pool Powers ... but not the natively Inherent Powers, such as Rest and Sprint and so on. For those who like to split hairs, I'd include the Fitness Pool of Powers in the Pool Powers side of things for that, rather than in the native Inherents, even though Fitness eventually became a set of Inherent Powers.

This would essentially "bifurcate" the functions of the Walk Toggle as used in City of Heroes, into a Civilian and a Walk Toggle. The Civilian Toggle would shut down your Powers, while the Walk Toggle would modify the movement of your Avatar and limiting the available Movement Powers you could use while Walk was engaged. Thus you couldn't Walk and Sprint at the same time (although if you could, that would be a Power Walk).


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Foradain
Foradain's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/25/2013 - 21:06
Lothic wrote: As a compromise
Lothic wrote:

As a compromise I could easily accept if they just gave us an "off-duty" slot, with the Powerless? (Y/N) toggle but with no extra "civilian powers". With that the version of "powerlessness" under this scheme would be absolute just like the side effect of CoH's Walk.

I'd like to add either the possibility of multiple off-duty slots or easy changing of the attire in the one slot. A business person on the subway, a student at Ephesus University, or someone hitting the Naughty Corner, would likely all have somewhat different attire.

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
Foradain's Character Conclave
.
Avatar courtesy of Satellite9 Irezoomie

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Foradain wrote: Lothic wrote
Foradain wrote:

I'd like to add either the possibility of multiple off-duty slots or easy changing of the attire in the one slot. A business person on the subway, a student at Ephesus University, or someone hitting the Naughty Corner, would likely all have somewhat different attire.

OK well here's another idea: Since we know from CoH that it's very likely they will give us a way to have multiple costume slots regardless maybe instead have having a single "dedicated" off-duty/secret ID slot we instead get a Powerless? (Y/N) toggle switch on EVERY costume slot available as well as an Off-duty? (Y/N) toggle on EVERY costume slot. The net effect then is that the player could not only choose how many of their combined costume slots are to be considered "off-duty" but also how many of them are powerless.
With this setup whenever the game offers a "play as civilian only" mission the game could check if ANY of your costume slots are flagged as Off-duty (Yes) and only allow you to enter the mission as long as you're flagged appropriately. This may also allow you to "power up" inside such a mission whenever you want by switching to a powered up slot or just toggling the slot you're currently wearing.
Also under this scheme I would suggest the game, by default, give every starting character at least two costume slots at character creation just so that everyone would be free to set at least one of them to be "off-duty" as desired.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Lothic, at that point you're

Lothic, at that point you're better off removing the Powerless? (Y/N) functionality from being assigned to Costumes Slots AT ALL and simply switching over to a "Civilian ID" Toggle Power. Drop the Secret ID limitation and just go with Civilian ID instead, so as to make it really clear that the purpose of the Toggle is to enforce a Not Super identity/functionality onto your character. That then gives the free-form/artistic options the widest possible range and gets at the purpose of what you're trying to do there in a "cleaner" fashion.

As far as Civilian Themes in stories and Missions is concerned, that's easy. Just have an enforced Civilian ID: ON requirement at some point in the "flow" of the Mission (whether that be the beginning, middle, end, or all of the above) and deal with things based on what the Civilian ID ... does ... to the range of possible actions/activities the Players can take. Note also that if the Civilian ID Toggle has an enforced ON point during a Mission, it would be entirely possible to design such a Mission to say that once THIS point in the Mission has been reached, the Civilian ID Toggle could be turned OFF at any point AFTER that point ... thereby giving Players "options" of when to drop the Civilian ID. That then gives you the necessary game mechanical Limitations Check for allowing Civilian ID play to happen at all ... without it being tied to any specific Costume Slot.

For example, Redlynne used to sometimes wear what I called her Evil Executive Secretary Look™ that was modeled on that of Crey Agents at times.

I could easily see using that as a Civilian ID if I needed to, although it's hard to blend in when you've been Ambushed in the streets in Steel Canyon ...


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Redlynne wrote: Lothic, at
Redlynne wrote:

Lothic, at that point you're better off removing the Powerless? (Y/N) functionality from being assigned to Costumes Slots AT ALL and simply switching over to a "Civilian ID" Toggle Power. Drop the Secret ID limitation and just go with Civilian ID instead, so as to make it really clear that the purpose of the Toggle is to enforce a Not Super identity/functionality onto your character. That then gives the free-form/artistic options the widest possible range and gets at the purpose of what you're trying to do there in a "cleaner" fashion.

I accept your latest evolution of this discussion: It may very well be easier to divorce the toggle(s) from the costumes slots and go with a more generic "civilian mode" toggle that could be used regardless of costume slot.
But I'll just ask the question (for the sake of covering all bases) whether or not there could ever be a benefit to having two separate toggles - one specifically for "on-duty vs. off-duty" and another for "powered vs. unpowered". There might be some added value to having the four possible states instead of two. With two toggles you could have the following states:

  • on-duty and powered (i.e. Superman)
  • on-duty and not-powered (i.e. Superman affected by Kryptonite)
  • off-duty and powered (i.e. Clark Kent)
  • off-duty and not-powered (i.e. Clark Kent affected by Kryptonite)

Again I'm just throwing this out there from the point of view of giving us more variables to work with. For instance a specific mission might require your character to be "off-duty" but make no demands about being powered or not. This would then give the player a RP choice for the powered toggle. Likewise there might be a situation where the game would force/require you to be powereless but not make any demands on whether you consider yourself to be on or off duty. These distinctions might actually be significant for determining different levels of mission difficulty or success parameters (e.g. you might get more XP if you choose to do a particular mission powerless regardless of being on duty or not).
Another benefit of having two unique toggles is that they could be worked into costume change keybinds that would let players lock/change these modes based on specific costume slots as desired. Say for instance I was playing a Hulk/Bruce Banner type character; I could always have my "hulk" costume slot be powered and my "Bruce Banner" slot be unpowered regardless of my on/off duty setting.
To be clear I'm not completely disregarding your "one toggle" proposal - I'm just wondering if there could be any unforeseen value added from the "two toggle" scenario.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
For what it's worth, I know

For what it's worth, I know exactly where you're coming from with angling for two toggles.

The thing is, it's effectively a difference without a meaning as far as game mechanics go. To be honest, it sounds a lot more like one of the Flashback Added Difficulty options involving Enemies Buffed and Allies Debuffed in terms of weakening the PC to make the content harder.

The real problem is that any sort of Powerless? (Y/N) functionality is going to have to be not only pretty global, but something that "busts" the character back down to no more than a basic Brawl attack, since even Civilians ought to be capable of Brawling. That in and of itself functionally renders any sort of combat action (aside from Level 1 Tutorial grade stuff) both moot and boring ... especially when facing the equivalent of Carnies, Malta, Nemesis, et al. grade Foe NPCs operating at the Level Cap who are operating under no such restrictions. That means that without your Powers, there needs to be an alternative route to success other than "fighting" for it like a Hero or a Villain.

So a better question to ask is ... what is the Return On Investment for making a two toggle distinction?

My thought is that the ROI is actually pretty minimal for designing a system using two toggles like you're saying. It may help with RP and immersion, but it does very little for the game mechanics going on under the hood that need to be supporting a MMORPG platform. In that respect, my sense is that having an "on duty/off duty" toggle would be about as useful as implementing Origins into the game engine was for City of Heroes ... as in, a nice thought and something that the genre clearly points to (as you've cited), but ultimately being something best served by Fluff Text™ rather than by game mechanics.

There's also the Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) aspect of not exponentially increasing the amount of work the developers need to do in order to *reliably* deliver a debugged product. Too many layers of complexity interacting makes all kinds of edge cases possible and therefore difficult to prevent consistently. Probably best to just go with the one Civilian ID toggle and have done with it. Keeps things tidier for all of the teams that would be generating Content, who already will have to deal with the triple axis Alignment system as well as any sort of NPC Group "faction" relationships on top of everything else.

So best to keep things simpler, methinks, which then also makes them easier to understand for new Players who enter the game over time. Less management, more mayhem ... if you see where I'm coming from with that.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
WarBird
WarBird's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 9 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/17/2013 - 19:11
I find all these ideas

I find all these ideas intriguing. But, good or bad, this mechanic could have sweeping consequences. So much so that it could justify an entirely separate game based around having a 'dual identity.'

Also, Lothic, if the four modes you outline are tied to costume slots you could have essentially four characters:

- On Duty/Powered = Wonder Woman
- On Duty/Un-powered = Shield Agent
- Off/Duty/Powered = Jessica Jones
- Off/Duty/Un-powered = um, well, any civilian I suppose.

That isn't a criticism, necessarily. Just pointing out a potential circumstance that could arise. I could see it reducing the incentive to have alts. (small reduction, admittedly, but it's there)

I think it might also, for lack of a better term, 'dilute' the mission designs. I could see having the occasional mission where you have to keep a low profile and use your civilian persona. But having to design for four essentially different playstyles? And then coming up with a balance of those types of mission in the overall world? I dunno.

Seems to me the core game is "Superhero in a Distinctive Costume." If occasionally you want to throw in a varietal mission that uses a secret/off-duty/civilian persona, fine. That's in keeping with the genre. But one doesn't generally pick up a superhero comic to see the heroes doing their thing in jeans and t-shirt. (Kevin Matchstick not-withstanding) (:

So, I'm back to preferring a single extra dedicated costume slot for off-duty/civilian situations. With a powered/unpowered toggle. Tie that to the occasional mission that requires an 'incognito' bit for mission complete and that would be sufficient for me. And yes, everybody gets that extra slot at start-up. Stands to reason. What the alienghostandroidkoala people do with it is up to them.

WarBird
WarBird's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 9 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/17/2013 - 19:11
Wait a minute, I think

Wait a minute, I think Redlynne and I are essentially saying the same thing. When did that start?

Nyxz
Nyxz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 5 months ago
Joined: 10/09/2015 - 03:37
WarBird wrote: Wait a minute
WarBird wrote:

Wait a minute, I think Redlynne and I are essentially saying the same thing. When did that start?

It's an alienghostandroidkoala plot. One of them slipped you a mikkie. Wake up before its toooo late.

jk

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
WarBird wrote: Wait a minute
Redlynne wrote:

So a better question to ask is ... what is the Return On Investment for making a two toggle distinction?

WarBird wrote:

Wait a minute, I think Redlynne and I are essentially saying the same thing. When did that start?

I'm all for the KISS principle in general. Then again the fact that the CoH Devs were able to effectively implement what amounts to a "Powerless? (Y/N) toggle" as the side effect of their Walk power implementation shows us that it probably wouldn't be too difficult for the CoT Devs to provide a straightforward, one-function toggle to accomplish the same thing without involving Walk.
Clearly a "Powerless" toggle would have far more use as a RP tool than say the "Civilian mode" toggle which could have application to the new types of missions we've been talking about. But I'm not really sure you can truly argue that having both types of toggles in the game would make things "too hard/confusing". If you're the type of player who doesn't RP or would absolutely hate the idea of ever willingly rendering their characters powerless then the simple solution is that you never use the powerless toggle - can't really see how that could be easier.
Anyway this has been an interesting discussion and clearly there are some features that the CoT Devs could provide to help people better deal with the whole secret ID/off-duty/civilian mode concept. I figure even if we only get a "one toggle" solution to help with all that it'd be better than nothing.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
WarBird wrote: Also, Lothic,
WarBird wrote:

Also, Lothic, if the four modes you outline are tied to costume slots you could have essentially four characters:
- On Duty/Powered = Wonder Woman
- On Duty/Un-powered = Shield Agent
- Off/Duty/Powered = Jessica Jones
- Off/Duty/Un-powered = um, well, any civilian I suppose.
That isn't a criticism, necessarily. Just pointing out a potential circumstance that could arise. I could see it reducing the incentive to have alts. (small reduction, admittedly, but it's there).

I suppose there's a way to take things to an extreme and rationalize that these state changes could be considered completely different characters.
But to me I see them more like being able to customize the standing "stances" of the same character. Like my classic example of the Hulk being able to specify whether my character is powered up (big and green) or unpowered (like normal Bruce) is more akin to another way of changing the appearance/presentation of a SINGLE character as opposed to trying to sneak a way of having multiple alts combined in one body.
I'm sorry but I just don't see what I'm proposing here would necessarily lead to the desire to "avoid creating extra alts" as you have put it. *shrugs*

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

WarBird
WarBird's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 9 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/17/2013 - 19:11
Lothic wrote: I'm sorry but I
Lothic wrote:

I'm sorry but I just don't see what I'm proposing here would necessarily lead to the desire to "avoid creating extra alts" as you have put it. *shrugs*

Well, I'm going to call you on your quotes. I said 'it could reduce incentive' not 'create a desire to avoid.' The two are not equivalent.

I understand your motivations as a player, and for the most part, share them. Of course we are looking at extremes. That's what we do here. :) We draw out an example to an absurd vanishing point and try to predict worst possible cases.

Really, Lothic, you don't seem to have the feel of this at all! :D

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
WarBird wrote: Well, I'm
WarBird wrote:

Well, I'm going to call you on your quotes. I said 'it could reduce incentive' not 'create a desire to avoid.' The two are not equivalent.

I was simply taking your relatively neutral phrasing on this to an "extreme" of sorts... ;)

WarBird wrote:

I understand your motivations as a player, and for the most part, share them. Of course we are looking at extremes. That's what we do here. :) We draw out an example to an absurd vanishing point and try to predict worst possible cases.
Really, Lothic, you don't seem to have the feel of this at all! :D

You've got to be kidding with this... I thought I was the self-appointed queen of Devil's Advocacy around here. Taking arguments ad absurdum and/or ad nauseam is what I do best. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
WarBird wrote: Wait a minute
WarBird wrote:

Wait a minute, I think Redlynne and I are essentially saying the same thing. When did that start?

Don't worry, it happens to the best of us ... and you'll get over it, eventually ... ^_~

I'm settling onto the idea of using a Civilian ID Toggle, rather than an assigned Costume Slot, simply for the reason that doing things that way achieves the same goals but with reduced limitations ... such as having more than one Costume Slot serve as a Civilian ID, which then expands the RP and immersion potential. In that respect, I'm looking at the use of a Civilian ID Toggle, rather than an assigned Costume Slot for the purpose, as being more in keeping with the more general notion this game is built upon vis-a-vis City of Heroes ... that the Artistic Elements aren't "tied down" to specific things from the start. I'm talking about how the appearance of Powers (and their use) can be "customized" to have different emanation points around the character, and that the colors and so on aren't "baked in" from the start so as to allow for an extremely wide range of customization.

Same deal here.

I'm taking the FUNCTION of a Civilian ID and disassociating it from being irrevocably tied to a single Costume Slot, thereby allowing its use to be more Free Form.

Note that such a Civilian ID could serve additional purposes above and beyond merely being used in Missions and Roleplay. "Enforcement" of its use could create Safe Zones for public spaces in the game, particularly in social hotspots that serve the function of the old Atlas Statue in Atlas Park. So imagine what it would mean to have a Civilian ID "enforced" within the bounds of Freedom Plaza, so as to make the space more RP friendly and less susceptible to having people zooming around spamming Powers everywhere (or whatever other obnoxious thing they feel like doing anywhere there's a huge audience of people to annoy). THAT kind of functionality is something you'd want to get out of a Toggle, not out of a Costume Slot ... and being able to "enforce" a Toggle ON (or off!) condition within a defined volume of space would be a useful function to include in the game, regardless of whether there is ever a single Mission developed intended to make use of a Civilian ID.

So I look at the Toggle versus Slot choice as being one of achieving the same things, but the Toggle having more potential and applicability than the Slot for the game as a whole.

Your mileage may vary of course.
Warbird, you are now free to tell me how I'm all wrong about everything I've just said.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Elios Valoryn
Elios Valoryn's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 5 months ago
Joined: 02/27/2016 - 06:59
Red, I think everyone on,

Red, I think everyone on, this forum is just giving constructive criticism. Not trying to put you down

As foolish as this seems,

Gotem.

From ya boy, Elios.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Elios Valoryn wrote: Red, I
Elios Valoryn wrote:

Red, I think everyone on, this forum is just giving constructive criticism. Not trying to put you down

Don't worry... You'll find that unlike the recent Presidential debates most people on this forum (even including WarBird and Redlynne) tend to keep the conversation away from actual personal attacks. Many of us here have a healthy habit of poking holes into each others arguments which only makes most of the ideas better in the long run. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

WarBird
WarBird's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 9 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/17/2013 - 19:11
Redlynne wrote: WarBird
Redlynne wrote:

WarBird wrote: Wait a minute, I think Redlynne and I are essentially saying the same thing. When did that start?Don't worry, it happens to the best of us ... and you'll get over it, eventually ... ^_~I'm settling onto the idea of using a Civilian ID Toggle, rather than an assigned Costume Slot, simply for the reason that doing things that way achieves the same goals but with reduced limitations ... such as having more than one Costume Slot serve as a Civilian ID, which then expands the RP and immersion potential. In that respect, I'm looking at the use of a Civilian ID Toggle, rather than an assigned Costume Slot for the purpose, as being more in keeping with the more general notion this game is built upon vis-a-vis City of Heroes ... that the Artistic Elements aren't "tied down" to specific things from the start. I'm talking about how the appearance of Powers (and their use) can be "customized" to have different emanation points around the character, and that the colors and so on aren't "baked in" from the start so as to allow for an extremely wide range of customization.Same deal here.I'm taking the FUNCTION of a Civilian ID and disassociating it from being irrevocably tied to a single Costume Slot, thereby allowing its use to be more Free Form.Note that such a Civilian ID could serve additional purposes above and beyond merely being used in Missions and Roleplay. "Enforcement" of its use could create Safe Zones for public spaces in the game, particularly in social hotspots that serve the function of the old Atlas Statue in Atlas Park. So imagine what it would mean to have a Civilian ID "enforced" within the bounds of Freedom Plaza, so as to make the space more RP friendly and less susceptible to having people zooming around spamming Powers everywhere (or whatever other obnoxious thing they feel like doing anywhere there's a huge audience of people to annoy). THAT kind of functionality is something you'd want to get out of a Toggle, not out of a Costume Slot ... and being able to "enforce" a Toggle ON (or off!) condition within a defined volume of space would be a useful function to include in the game, regardless of whether there is ever a single Mission developed intended to make use of a Civilian ID.So I look at the Toggle versus Slot choice as being one of achieving the same things, but the Toggle having more potential and applicability than the Slot for the game as a whole.Your mileage may vary of course.
Warbird, you are now free to tell me how I'm all wrong about everything I've just said.

Gee thanks, Red. Though I've never needed actual permission before. ;) Actually, I see your points as a completely valid alternative to the separate costume slot. Not superior, mind, but valid. I don't really see the advantages being significant. Plus, I was kind of hoping to get a free costume slot out of the deal, right off the bat. So thanks for messing that up for everybody! >:P

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
WarBird wrote: Plus, I was
WarBird wrote:

Plus, I was kind of hoping to get a free costume slot out of the deal, right off the bat. So thanks for messing that up for everybody! >:P

The Devs might decide to be nice and let every character start off with two costume slots regardless of any other "features" they implement to account for a secret ID. If such a second costume slot isn't free then maybe they'll sell it for a trivial amount in the cash store or maybe even make it an award for completing an early "secret ID tutorial" type mission.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Lothic said it first. Simply

Lothic said it first. Simply start with 2 Costume Slots available. If you have the Civilian ID Toggle, you can either have 2 Super Costumes or 1 Civilian and 1 Super Costume, and there isn't an order of precedence for which has to be which (because, Toggle). Greater flexibility and more "agnostic" as to the purpose of the Costume Slots that way.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Redlynne wrote: Lothic said
Redlynne wrote:

Lothic said it first. Simply start with 2 Costume Slots available. If you have the Civilian ID Toggle, you can either have 2 Super Costumes or 1 Civilian and 1 Super Costume, and there isn't an order of precedence for which has to be which (because, Toggle). Greater flexibility and more "agnostic" as to the purpose of the Costume Slots that way.

Having two costume slots at character creation as a default might also help the game by encouraging roleplaying in general, even if you'd only be motivated to create a second "super" costume and still not bother with a "civilian" outfit. Those people who have absolutely no interest in "second costumes" could just leave the second slot blank.
There's certainly precedent for having access to multiple costumes even at a character's creation - it's hard to find any current characters in the comic books/movies who don't already have multiple outfits to begin with. The "creating her final costume montage" in the recent Supergirl TV show pilot is a perfect example of that.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
(No subject)

By the way, for anyone who hasn't been watching Supergirl ... you are missing out!


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Izzy
Izzy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 5 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 11:09
at 1:06, Nice boots!!! ;D

at 1:06, Nice boots!!! ;D

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Izzy wrote: at 1:06, Nice
Izzy wrote:

at 1:06, Nice boots!!! ;D

Yeah I figured that was a quick "Easter egg" reference to the type of boots the 1996 Linda Danvers/Animated Supergirl wore:

Too bad they didn't have Melissa Benoist wear the entire outfit on the show. ;)
P.S. Obviously it'd be cool to have boots like that available for characters in CoT as well...

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012