Kickstarter Good News/Bad News

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Doctor Tyche
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Kickstarter Good News/Bad News

Nate "Doctor Tyche" Downes here;

A bit of bad news/good news situation has developed. The KS is in and submitted, the only portions which were not ready in time being those we can add after approval (the video, a few extra graphics, the add-ons for the perks, and two of our leaderships' biographies). The bad news is, we have not yet heard on approval, something which does sometimes happen. With any luck we will hear back tomorrow and all goes ahead as planned, but with only two days to go, we would rather be up front and honest than to have disappointment set in.

However, being that it is submitted, we can reveal the preview for the site. Yes, we know that a few typos leaked past our crack editors in the rush, and they will be fixed once approval has hit. There are some graphics not yet in place, and those will be added soon. The video with the in-game footage we've been preparing has not yet been added in order to do some last minute editing adjustments. But with the possibility of a date slip, I felt it would be in poor taste to not at least give people a look, and the opportunity for some last minute feedback before we go live.

With this understanding, I bring to you, The Phoenix Project Kickstarter - Preview!

[Edit: Stale link has been removed. It was only available for a limited time. -ZM]

Edited by: Zombie Man on 09/08/2013 - 13:15
Zombie Man
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Just a reminder: The link above is now stale. It was a short preview window for feedback. Thanks for the feedback!

Look for the KS to go Live sometime on Sunday as long as everything gets approved by the KS folks. And look for us to update the rewards and add-ons in the following days with stuff that didn't make it into the KS deadline. We'll provide a link here with everything the KS campaign will have once it gets all the approvals it needs. KS donations can be increased or decreased during the entire time of the campaign and are only finalized at the very end and only if the goal was met.

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G1ass
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Um, I get a 404 error on the http link you provided. Just wanted to let you know. Still eagerly awaiting the project.

Thanks.

Kaxiya
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Same here. Getting 404 errors via KS

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Jag8
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Well that is good to know. I was under the impression that the kickstarter was already approved and ready to go on the 8th of Sept. being reason why it was publically stated that was the date the kickstarter was supposed to go live. While back then when the date was being announced it would have been nice to have a word or disclaimer that the date was tentative based on actual approval.

The heads up is greatly appreciated though and clears some stuff up. Remember to be upfront with information especially public released information in the future though. I'm not mad disappointed or what not just saying kickstarter is already a risk and this being new group, there is already a battle to quell doubt and more doubt shouldn't be added with with holding of information that is important to the information being released like Sept 8 was a tentative date and not yet been approved. Sometimes people take that as a sign of what else are they withholding and what else that is important they are not saying and when kickstarter is done and when they communicate with the donators are they telling the whole story.

It probably was merely an oversight or words that accidentally got left out or didn't fit with the public statements and interviews. AKA, it happens. Look on the bright side if it is delayed that is more time to prep for an even better showing.

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Since last year I have looked forward to this hopeful news of this new community. We will wait. We will hope. I apologize for the cliche, but if you build it, they will come.... Overwhelmingly.

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Judgement Dave
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So, if it has got approval from KS, does anyone know what time it'd go live?

Been looking and I still can't see anything on search unless the video game is being made from a 500+ yr old slab of Redwood...

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DeathSentry
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Clicking on quickstarter link gives an error

CoH addict for 8+ years...and counting

Kaxiya
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The link is non functioning.

It was only active for a short window to allow us to preview the KS site.

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Gladatoria
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We understand, dont worry, we cant thank you enough for putting so much effort into this...and whatever comes, I would have been proud to contribute at least a tiny bit on the forums, thank you everyone for getting us here!!! :D

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Heliopause
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I was a 6 year subscriber and am eager to contribute to this kick starter. I was disappointed when I went to the kick starter website and city of heroes was no where to be found. What name should I be looking for?

Interdictor
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Heliopause wrote:

I was a 6 year subscriber and am eager to contribute to this kick starter. I was disappointed when I went to the kick starter website and city of heroes was no where to be found. What name should I be looking for?

The kickstarter should be starting on Sept 9th (or close to it). They will provide a link when it goes live I'm sure.

Oh - and just to be clear - this is NOT a resurrection of City of Heroes - it is going to be a new, but similar, game.

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exactly. Search for The Phoenix Project. From what we have heard from the devs is there is no official name of the game so just go off of what the project is called.

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srmalloy
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Still nothing on the Kickstarter search that looks like the right project under 'The Phoenix Project'...

Kovacs
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Yeah, i mentioned it on the facebook page the other day, there is a project on Kickstarter that is named The Phoenix Project and is a video game from a group in Japan.

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There's another project entirely unrelated to the Phoenix Project called "Project Phoenix" which is based out of Japan, so obviously that stirs up some confusion.

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This is just a suggestion to the devs but why not use the name Ouroboros it's the same rebirth concept as the phoenix and if memory serves CoH had something with the Ouroboros.

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We have noticed that there is a Project Phoenix and now the Phoenix Project that is not ours currently running. It was a worry that this will cause an even further delay with Kickstarter due to the name confusion. Thank you Roadkill for the heads up. :) With this in mind we have decided to distinguish our project by releasing the game's name a little earlier then planned. I will wait for someone who is more 'official' them me though to make that announcement.

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The above post sums up my feelings adequately.

The world is a mess and I just ... need to rule it.

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Agree that 9-8-2013 should have been labeled as tentative. These being tough times, confidence cannot be shaken. You guys are doing an amazing thing and I will contribute. I look forward to checking out the kickstarter. I pray and hope the best will come of this. Please continue to be accurate and upfront as we all came from this community.

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I think (most) people will understand that things do happen that aren't always as planned. While it is unfortunate that there has been a bit of a delay, I think once people see the Kickstarter page and are given more information that they won't be as hesitant to contribute.

I look forward to tomorrow!

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c'mon c'mon c'mon! I'm ready.

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Just give them some time, I'd rather them do it right and wait till tomorrow then to rush out an unprepared kick starter page, which will have a huge impact in the games production!!

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mrultimate
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Ladies and Gents.

I was unable to leave a comment on the KS preview site although I did have the chance to see it.
There was worthwhile information there however I believe that personnel information needs to include each person’s real name and picture along with their developer name and title. I can’t see the developer pictures now inspiring confidence in the project . This is my small complaint but I’d like to know who I’m sending my money to.

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Well in theory you are sending the money to the studio, Missing Worlds, which is more than safe to assume has everything required of a bank, minumum and LLC.

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Luscious wrote:

Well in theory you are sending the money to the studio, Missing Worlds, which is more than safe to assume has everything required of a bank, minumum and LLC.

Well sometimes even that isnt as safe as it sounds.

A friend of mine basically laid out how easy it would be to create faux projects and dissappear. I watched them actually create bank accounts using false names and social security numbers, and addresses, linked one to Amazon and did a transaction (using their own money though). Then few days later when the money hit the faux, closed the account. Although I'm not sure how legal it is to give false information to banking institutes, but given that it was tested with their own money and closed in short order, I doubt it will raise eyebrows but that goes to show in the time of a kcikstarter someone could in theory collect money and dissappear. And even if it was other's money, thye would be long gone laughing all the way to the bank before anyone catches on and given that a lot of time is expected for projects to come out, that could mean more than a few years before anyone even get wise with stall tactics of simple statements of "Still working on the project. Be patient. There will be delays." to buy them 3-9 more months. And it's nothing to create multiple Kickstarter project accounts. KS accounts with First backed seems to be common and thus they would blend right in with the population.

And to really shine them on, a fake profile with a fake website or temporary website and a few random fake pics to match the profiles are not hard to pull off although there is off chance the real person in the pic come across it but the disappearing act would still be easy.

There is risk.

But in Missing world case, they are a legit company out of Washington for profit, with a legit business number assigned. But not everyone know how or where to look for that stuff especially the mass amount of "garage" projects out there.

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And most of those people don't care, they prefer to take things at face value, plus a year long Facebook hoax, with two websites, kickstarter, interviews with game sites, the likely hood it's a giant scam is slim to none. I would hate live in a world of dispare and negativity..

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Jag8
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Luscious wrote:

And most of those people don't care, they prefer to take things at face value, plus a year long Facebook hoax, with two websites, kickstarter, interviews with game sites, the likely hood it's a giant scam is slim to none. I would hate live in a world of dispare and negativity..

yup of course it's slim chance but slim doesnt mean perfectly safe with no risk at all or something that cannont and will not happen or havent happened.

Well the interview said it will be released on the 8th. It's going on the 9th. How many people that may not even know of this site or the forum but seen the interview wondering "what happened?" Sometimes even the plan doesnt pan out and a stray monkey wrench cause delays.

Not to mention even some projects that are fully funded and seem legit never see the light of day some or rather most due to inexperience and unforseen things, and a few probably people getting away with it.

Most wars when in hindsight could have been won if the risk assessment was properly done. Even with suprerior numbers an overconfident army that wasnt prepared can fall. Whether that means not properly planning the supply route or misrationing of ammo or not carrying gear for inclimate weather.

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fear leads to anger :P

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...Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. :D

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We have a word association game in another folder. ;)

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I would just like to take a moment to thank everyone for their patience. Look for information updates Here as as soon as We have ironclad info to go on. We sure don't want to have to learn this particular lesson twice. :). You are all still the best mmo community ever.

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<3

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kitsune9tails wrote:

I would just like to take a moment to thank everyone for their patience. Look for information updates Here as as soon as We have ironclad info to go on. We sure don't want to have to learn this particular lesson twice. :). You are all still the best mmo community ever.

Thanks Kitsune9tails! I know these things do happen, but thank you for keeping us up-to-date on everything as much as you guys can. :)

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Yes, some people do scam and vanish. Any investment is a risk, and Kickstarters are very high risk. There is a very real chance that, while this project is not a scam, it could fail. MMOs are extremely difficult to make and even harder to make well. It's a leap of faith and and a desire to see something be made that couldn't otherwise be made.

Darkscar
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It actually works out for me as I won't have any money to spare until the weekend! :p

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I realize you guys have began an amazing venture. I also realize that this is an effort by volunteers at this stage. My hat is off to you for undertaking such an enormous endeavour. My concern is that despite creating a hype surrounding your KS, you missed the Tack Time for that process. A delay is not yet something that is viable for the execution of your product at this stage and only serves to increase risk. And although this community is forgiving, it is only part of what is needed to make this venture successful. You have to follow a path of strict, unwavering and impeccable integrity without exception in order to make this endeavour what your vision, focus and ultimate goals imply. You all have started an immense undertaking and as a coh fan since 2004, thanks for taking on what seems a true injustice.

Iced

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Well unfortunately none of us have ever personally ran a kick starter campaign and there were some unforeseen bumps with the submission process. We are waiting their approval and will have an announcement to update you guys once we have more information on where we stand in the approval process.

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iceecat wrote:

I realize you guys have began an amazing venture. I also realize that this is an effort by volunteers at this stage. My hat is off to you for undertaking such an enormous endeavour. My concern is that despite creating a hype surrounding your KS, you missed the Tack Time for that process. A delay is not yet something that is viable for the execution of your product at this stage and only serves to increase risk. And although this community is forgiving, it is only part of what is needed to make this venture successful. You have to follow a path of strict, unwavering and impeccable integrity without exception in order to make this endeavour what your vision, focus and ultimate goals imply. You all have started an immense undertaking and as a coh fan since 2004, thanks for taking on what seems a true injustice.

Its like many people think they are just chilling around waiting for money to pile in from a kickstarter, when in reality, they have run into a lil snag with the kickstarter setup but they are still hard at work coding the game, coming up with Lore, and all the general things they need to figure out.

Having been part of a group that did a kickstarter, i can understand how difficult it can be working with the administrations boundaries at KS.

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Patiently* waiting.

(*Actually impatient as hell and smashing things in RL to feel better, but you can hide anything on the Internet.)

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except for your google search history, that stuff always comes back to bite you in the butt

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Luscious wrote:

except for your google search history, that **** always comes back to bite you in the butt

I never use google anymore. They don't seem to give a rats butt a privacy and user information protection and collect more data than I'm comfortable with.

The reason why I always ask for direct links. Although that may or may not help but haven't figured out a way around that yet.

Kovacs
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the NSA is collecting everything, permission or not....

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Luscious wrote:

the NSA is collecting everything, permission or not....

of course. Collecting information on everything besides stuff to prevent attacks. Conveniently they never see those coming.

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Hitting the brakes on the politics tangent!!

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Hahaha, warning heard.

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Luscious wrote:
iceecat wrote:

I realize you guys have began an amazing venture. I also realize that this is an effort by volunteers at this stage. My hat is off to you for undertaking such an enormous endeavour. My concern is that despite creating a hype surrounding your KS, you missed the Tack Time for that process. A delay is not yet something that is viable for the execution of your product at this stage and only serves to increase risk. And although this community is forgiving, it is only part of what is needed to make this venture successful. You have to follow a path of strict, unwavering and impeccable integrity without exception in order to make this endeavour what your vision, focus and ultimate goals imply. You all have started an immense undertaking and as a coh fan since 2004, thanks for taking on what seems a true injustice.

Its like many people think they are just chilling around waiting for money to pile in from a kickstarter, when in reality, they have run into a lil snag with the kickstarter setup but they are still hard at work coding the game, coming up with Lore, and all the general things they need to figure out.

Having been part of a group that did a kickstarter, i can understand how difficult it can be working with the administrations boundaries at KS.

By the response from them, I think they understand the implication of the statement made, even if you do not.

Iced

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Zombie Man wrote:

Hitting the brakes on the politics tangent!!

Except it's not politics... it ceased been politics a long time ago. A Police State has no politics, just the "Illusion" of politics ;-)

Now there's a Story Line in this if you look at it right... Civil War has already dealt with this, and the Mutant Registration Act... earily similar to what is going on irl at the moment...

We need an Off-Topic Thread Ideas For Story Arc Based on Real Life Sub Forum :)

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This is a Moderator Note:

Battler: It is politics in my opinion and it is definitively off topic. Continuing in this vein will lead to loss of posting privileges.

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Kovacs
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Take it to the Chit Chat thread under the forum games section. and remember to keep it PG-13

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Contrary to what I thought to know, Kickstarter does NOT support payment with Paypal -.-
Found this out when I wanted to back Wrath of Kings, a slightly over-funded miniature game. Pity, the stretch goals are quite nice and it 'll be funded tonight.
Appearently for pledging via Paypal the project owners have to somehow work around Kickstarter/Amazon...and I really hope MWM will do so.
Otherwise I'd have to find someone who'd lend me a credit card

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snate56
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You could also use a debit card.

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Kovacs
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Just use what ever credit car you have attached to Paypal, and just make sure you have enough free space on the card by the time the kickstarter ends..

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If I had a credit card, Luscious, I wouldn't need Paypal in the first place...PP gets the money straight from my bank account.
guess I'll get myself a debit card then. Thanks for the tipp.

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Justice Blues
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Ellis wrote:

Yes, some people do scam and vanish. Any investment is a risk, and Kickstarters are very high risk. There is a very real chance that, while this project is not a scam, it could fail. MMOs are extremely difficult to make and even harder to make well. It's a leap of faith and and a desire to see something be made that couldn't otherwise be made.

There is a big difference between the risk of a project not succeeding and a scam. As of right now I have backed 184 projects on 3 different crowdfunding sites, 178 of them on Twitter. 163 of them were successfully funded, and I have received my promised rewards for 81 projects so far. There are 41 projects that are late with their rewards at this time, with 2 or 3 that I'm guessing won't be able to ever fulfill their rewards, and one that may or may not be a scam (But it someone else is stepping in to make things good on that one. Thanks Cryptozoic) In my experience, out right failures of projects are uncommon, and the threat of scams even more so. Not non-existent by any means, but certainly on the rare or ultra-rare level of drops.

cybermitheral
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Can we get an official update on the KS please?
Pending Approval?
Have not submitted the requested changes yet?
etc
etc

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Justice Blues wrote:
Ellis wrote:

Yes, some people do scam and vanish. Any investment is a risk, and Kickstarters are very high risk. There is a very real chance that, while this project is not a scam, it could fail. MMOs are extremely difficult to make and even harder to make well. It's a leap of faith and and a desire to see something be made that couldn't otherwise be made.

There is a big difference between the risk of a project not succeeding and a scam. As of right now I have backed 184 projects on 3 different crowdfunding sites, 178 of them on Twitter. 163 of them were successfully funded, and I have received my promised rewards for 81 projects so far. There are 41 projects that are late with their rewards at this time, with 2 or 3 that I'm guessing won't be able to ever fulfill their rewards, and one that may or may not be a scam (But it someone else is stepping in to make things good on that one. Thanks Cryptozoic) In my experience, out right failures of projects are uncommon, and the threat of scams even more so. Not non-existent by any means, but certainly on the rare or ultra-rare level of drops.

Or you're just good at picking them given that the stat of kickstarters that fail is about 41% overall all projects and in gaming only about 34% succeed. or about 66% failure rate.

And while the most visible scams make the news there are probably more than people realize. Going over various Kickstarter user reviews, many people mention various projects that simply failed or didn't deliver. The key to making a scam work is getting people to think it wont don't or a very very small chance of happening. That way when it does happen, people focus on questioning the victim while the scammer makes a getaway. And by the time they realize they were in fact scammed, the scammer is long gone. Scamming 101.

It's been stated that up 84% of projects don't even finish on time. This means basically your stats is either that you have a very good eye for projects or you're the one that is hitting purple drop luck.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-08-21/kickstarter-s-funded-projects-see-some-stumbles
http://nypost.com/2012/09/04/dude-about-that-kickstarter-project/
http://www.sitejabber.com/reviews/www.kickstarter.com
http://money.cnn.com/2012/12/18/technology/innovation/kickstarter-ship-delay/index.html

And lastly, even canceled games and or scams are not rare as you make it seem. Another major one happened in July, along with a few others. It seems that most don't purposely scam people but simply run out of money. Even after being successfully funded on kickstarter.
http://www.actiontrip.com/news/game-on-kickstarter-canceled-after-publisher-spends-all-funds/072613_5 (about "Doom on the Atlantic" or something). And other this year alone and these are just the most high profile ones. The Kobe Beef scam, Mythic (a near obvious fraud but still managed to raise $5,000).

The problem with spotting more subliminal scams is that it's easy to delay tactic especially with a video game. A dev. could say wait for years without many people getting wise because they expect games to take 2-4 years anyways.Then make up something about a delay or whatnot, add more time, then by the time anyone realize they been had, well all they can do is go post in a forum somewhere because by then the statute of limitations are probably up by now and trying to chase down a company that all but vamoosed 3-4 years after the fact make it harder and time consuming and expensive. Kickstarter is a gold mine for scammers. Kickstarter wont help, they get their cut and could care less after a game is funded, and not many people will bother suing over a $100 or so and that is assuming they can find them. A pledger ask questions too early they are being viewed as impatient. They wait too long to ask questions, they could be got token for a ride and wait around for years before realizing it. It's no win and very high risk for pledgers. They have no protection at all and the protection they can get will cost arm leg and ear and not worth over a few hundred dollars.

While most of them are decent honest folk, there are some bad ones out there some on purpose but many more just lack of experience and running out of cash with nothing to say but "Well sorry, thanks for the cash."
If they wasn't high risk in the first place they could have gotten professional funding from other sources. Never give what will be missed.

The Susan Wilson incident, well they got accused of being a scam and it does look fishy but verdict is not out yet that I know of.

An to make clear, I'm not saying Kickstarter itself is a scam, but it's no more or less risky than some random stranger in person with a bright idea asking for money to fund his idea. Again, most are honest decent folk, but there are some out there that will tug at your heart with words then run off or more likely simply bungle it when the money is received. Many upstart business started in the traditional way end up failing. People starting on kickstarter is no different. A good idea doesn't always mean good business sense to actually pull it off.

Voltaire Ray
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Wow, although there are risks involved in giving money to start up companies, I believe you are going out of your way to explain why they should not supply money to a startup. I for one believe that if I supply money for a company to on its feet to supply a product that I think I would like and lose I am not worse for it. If you or anyone have doubts about MWM then it would be best you do not supply money.

I, for one, do not feel that MWM is planning on anything other than what they stated from the beginning. Try to keep these on topic about a positive Kickstarter and possible ways to improve upon what they are offerng for the money supplied.

Naa
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It would be nice to to Pay Pal cause through them I could do Bill Me Later (like an internet only credit card) then I could donate so much more ^_^ I have so much free credit on that... and if a purchase (donation) is over a certain amount the donator can have a few months to pay it off interest free (after the time frame - usually 6 months - you start accruing interest).

But... I have plenty of credit cards ^_^ or just wait until end of the month when I get paid (sometimes it sucks getting paid only once a month).

Naa
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Nos482 wrote:

If I had a credit card, Luscious, I wouldn't need Paypal in the first place...PP gets the money straight from my bank account.
guess I'll get myself a debit card then. Thanks for the tipp.

Paypal offers their own debit card, it'll just take 2-3 days to move money over from your bank account to your Paypal account then you use the Paypal debit card just like a check card (credit card for your checking account).

Justice Blues
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Jag8 wrote:
Justice Blues wrote:
Ellis wrote:

Yes, some people do scam and vanish. Any investment is a risk, and Kickstarters are very high risk. There is a very real chance that, while this project is not a scam, it could fail. MMOs are extremely difficult to make and even harder to make well. It's a leap of faith and and a desire to see something be made that couldn't otherwise be made.

There is a big difference between the risk of a project not succeeding and a scam. As of right now I have backed 184 projects on 3 different crowdfunding sites, 178 of them on Twitter. 163 of them were successfully funded, and I have received my promised rewards for 81 projects so far. There are 41 projects that are late with their rewards at this time, with 2 or 3 that I'm guessing won't be able to ever fulfill their rewards, and one that may or may not be a scam (But it someone else is stepping in to make things good on that one. Thanks Cryptozoic) In my experience, out right failures of projects are uncommon, and the threat of scams even more so. Not non-existent by any means, but certainly on the rare or ultra-rare level of drops.

Or you're just good at picking them given that the stat of kickstarters that fail is about 41% overall all projects and in gaming only about 34% succeed. or about 66% failure rate.

Yes, I am good at picking them. I don't just back everything I see that looks interesting (couldn't afford that anyway) and if it isn't someone I am familiar with I try and check out any references they give. I do sometimes back something for fun or because it sounds like a good cause. Almost always for $10 or $15 bucks and no reward. So far, all of those that have funded have followed through and did what they promised, which is somewhat surprising since the charity or non-profit stuff pulling in lots of low dollar amounts would be the easiest way to scam.

Jag8 wrote:

It's been stated that up 84% of projects don't even finish on time. This means basically your stats is either that you have a very good eye for projects or you're the one that is hitting purple drop luck.

While I have received a large percentage of rewards, that says nothing about when they were delivered. I didn't think to start keep track of that on my spreadsheet until I was over 80 or 90 projects backs. I do know that 3 or 4 were no rewards chosen, 1 was delivered within a week of the end of the Kickstarter, and the vast majority were overdue by weeks or months. I never expect on time delivery from Kickstarters, especially if they are wildly successful. The longest wait I have experienced to date is from Steve Jackson Games Ogre project. It was supposed to deliver in Nov 2012. The launch party is the end of this month, and they will start shipping them in October.

The reason I don't worry about delivery dates is because Life Happens. As in Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans. Expecting project creators to be immune to that is just down right silly. 3rd project I backed was a pro photographer getting a grant to live in the Badlands for several weeks and photographer it, he was only asking for $500 and got $1200 for traveling and food while he was there. Posted some very nice shots while he was there, then when he got back he discovered that his hard drive had failed. And his backup drive had failed. Everything was gone. With insurance money and help from a non-profit, he went back and did it again. Got a very nice print out of that project. Eventually. :)

Jag8 wrote:

And lastly, even canceled games and or scams are not rare as you make it seem. Another major one happened in July, along with a few others. It seems that most don't purposely scam people but simply run out of money. Even after being successfully funded on kickstarter.
http://www.actiontrip.com/news/game-on-kickstarter-canceled-after-publisher-spends-all-funds/072613_5 (about "Doom on the Atlantic" or something). And other this year alone and these are just the most high profile ones. The Kobe Beef scam, Mythic (a near obvious fraud but still managed to raise $5,000).

Actually, it was "The Doom That Came to Atlantic City" which is the project I referenced in my post that may or may not be a scam. I thanked Cryptozoic because they are getting together with the game designers (Who were not associated with the Kickstarter other than licensing their game to that project creator.) and are going to publish the game. Then they are giving all the backers a free copy. Needless to say, they have generated enormous amounts of goodwill toward their company in the board game community.

Jag8 wrote:

The problem with spotting more subliminal scams is that it's easy to delay tactic especially with a video game. A dev. could say wait for years without many people getting wise because they expect games to take 2-4 years anyways.Then make up something about a delay or whatnot, add more time, then by the time anyone realize they been had, well all they can do is go post in a forum somewhere because by then the statute of limitations are probably up by now and trying to chase down a company that all but vamoosed 3-4 years after the fact make it harder and time consuming and expensive. Kickstarter is a gold mine for scammers. Kickstarter wont help, they get their cut and could care less after a game is funded, and not many people will bother suing over a $100 or so and that is assuming they can find them. A pledger ask questions too early they are being viewed as impatient. They wait too long to ask questions, they could be got token for a ride and wait around for years before realizing it. It's no win and very high risk for pledgers. They have no protection at all and the protection they can get will cost arm leg and ear and not worth over a few hundred dollars.

While most of them are decent honest folk, there are some bad ones out there some on purpose but many more just lack of experience and running out of cash with nothing to say but "Well sorry, thanks for the cash."
If they wasn't high risk in the first place they could have gotten professional funding from other sources. Never give what will be missed.

The Susan Wilson incident, well they got accused of being a scam and it does look fishy but verdict is not out yet that I know of.

An to make clear, I'm not saying Kickstarter itself is a scam, but it's no more or less risky than some random stranger in person with a bright idea asking for money to fund his idea. Again, most are honest decent folk, but there are some out there that will tug at your heart with words then run off or more likely simply bungle it when the money is received. Many upstart business started in the traditional way end up failing. People starting on kickstarter is no different. A good idea doesn't always mean good business sense to actually pull it off.

First off, someone that is asking for money on Kickstarter may or may not be high risk. Even established companies are having problems getting loans from banks these days. There are a lot of reasons someone might want to fund through crowdsourcing. An independent artist who has a small fanbase and wants to do an album or EP, or a writer who wants to continue writing in a series, but their publisher wants something new. And small projects in things like board games are heading to Kickstarter because it is an easy way to see if there is an audience for that particular item.

I never said there were no scammers. And it is true that it is possible to set up scams on Kickstarter or the other crowdfunding sites. (Although I would argue that Kickstarter is the worst one to do it on. Better to pick IndiGoGo or one of the other sites that allows you to keep any money that is pledged, rather than having to reach your set goal to get any.) But the fact is, the vast majority of projects are not scams. Kickstarter has had 48,460 successfully backed projects. We know of what, 50? attempted scams. (Actually, I could find less than 2 dozen reported since 2011. But that number includes those famous scams Ouya and Pebble Watch.) 10 times that number of unknown, successful scams would be just over 1% of the total successful projects. Which is actually less than what I have encountered, assuming that the Doom creator was actually scamming and not just an idiot. There is a real risk of backing a scam project on Kickstarter. But frankly, it is so low, I don't consider it worth worrying about.

The much larger risk, which is the one that is most likely to occur with this project, is the failure of the creator to be able to follow through, despite their best efforts. There is no way to avoid this risk. It is inherent in the nature of crowdfunding. It is this risk you should be aware of, and take it into account when backing any project, for any amount of money. Is it a game you think looks like fun, who only wants $7,000? If it won't bother you to lose the $20 they want for a copy of the game, then go for it. Is an artist you like that has already more than funded their project, but you still want to support them and like that $2,000 reward? If you don't mind not getting what you pledged for, then again, go for it.

Just be aware that something may happen, and you might lose that $20, or that $2,000, and never receive anything. And most importantly, never pledge more than you can afford on any project.

jag40
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Voltaire Ray wrote:

Wow, although there are risks involved in giving money to start up companies, I believe you are going out of your way to explain why they should not supply money to a startup. I for one believe that if I supply money for a company to on its feet to supply a product that I think I would like and lose I am not worse for it. If you or anyone have doubts about MWM then it would be best you do not supply money.

I, for one, do not feel that MWM is planning on anything other than what they stated from the beginning. Try to keep these on topic about a positive Kickstarter and possible ways to improve upon what they are offerng for the money supplied.

There isn't anywhere I said they shouldn't give money to a startup. The subject isn't about whether or not they should give or not, that is their decision they must make. And unlike you, I'm not trying to make that decision for them. Whether I give or not, is my choice not yours to make.

The subject is about the risks of kickstarter. There are risks and they are more common than what people say and try to down play. My very last statement was "do not give what will be missed." While you have money enough to not care what happens for it, unfortunately not everyone is as well off as you to have money to burn like that and while you don't care whether it works or not, some people rather DO care what happens to the money and whether or not they are putting in for a good cause.

And if people with doubts as you say shouldn't even think about giving, then they wouldn't need kickstarter to begin with as they already have backing of people that know them and what they are about. Apparently, the kickstarter is needed because the people you say that have "no doubts" and ready to throw money, must be mostly talking or else the project would have been funded long time ago.

It's a disservice to act like there isn't any risks to kickstarter and only focus on the good stuff, when unfortunately things happened that was not good. Not everyone is veteran kickstarter and not everyone know MWM and had drinks with them or trust that easily. If you do, that is fine. But I find it highly insulting to even insinuate that if someone have doubts they shouldn't give. Who the hell are you? If you are giving in anyone that have doubt stead, then by all means, say that. But what you do with your money is your business and what others do with theirs and information that ask for, or doubt they have or a little more conservative with their decisions is their business. Either way that decision is theirs and just like you probably rather want people to respect your decision and allow you to make that choice have the common decency and respect to allow others to make theirs without coming off a total wad because they have doubts as if MWM is some sort of unquestionable infallible God that everyone is supposed to immediately offer their life savings to.

You think kickstarter is perfectly safe, fine, but do not insult those that may not be so trusting. If the risks about kickstarter is not allowed, then trumping up the good thing like a fan boy should not be allowed either. Because trumping up the good side as if their is absolutely no risk or risk on the level of lottery grand prize winner is a bold face lie and there are documented incidents to prove that it's not always 100% kosher.The truth is should be allowed for both sides. Which is that kickstarter works, it's fine but their are risks and the potential to lose money which should be kept in mind as people give.

Jag8

Tamorand
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Jag, I think what Voltaire was trying to convey is that this particular leg of the discussion does nothing to further the cause of the Phoenix Project and your reasoning falls clearly within the boundaries of common sense.

It's not always necessary or helpful to point out the negative side of reality just because it's there.

Tamorand

jag40
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Justice Blues wrote:
Jag8 wrote:
Justice Blues wrote:
Ellis wrote:

Yes, some people do scam and vanish. Any investment is a risk, and Kickstarters are very high risk. There is a very real chance that, while this project is not a scam, it could fail. MMOs are extremely difficult to make and even harder to make well. It's a leap of faith and and a desire to see something be made that couldn't otherwise be made.

There is a big difference between the risk of a project not succeeding and a scam. As of right now I have backed 184 projects on 3 different crowdfunding sites, 178 of them on Twitter. 163 of them were successfully funded, and I have received my promised rewards for 81 projects so far. There are 41 projects that are late with their rewards at this time, with 2 or 3 that I'm guessing won't be able to ever fulfill their rewards, and one that may or may not be a scam (But it someone else is stepping in to make things good on that one. Thanks Cryptozoic) In my experience, out right failures of projects are uncommon, and the threat of scams even more so. Not non-existent by any means, but certainly on the rare or ultra-rare level of drops.

Or you're just good at picking them given that the stat of kickstarters that fail is about 41% overall all projects and in gaming only about 34% succeed. or about 66% failure rate.

Yes, I am good at picking them. I don't just back everything I see that looks interesting (couldn't afford that anyway) and if it isn't someone I am familiar with I try and check out any references they give. I do sometimes back something for fun or because it sounds like a good cause. Almost always for $10 or $15 bucks and no reward. So far, all of those that have funded have followed through and did what they promised, which is somewhat surprising since the charity or non-profit stuff pulling in lots of low dollar amounts would be the easiest way to scam.

Jag8 wrote:

It's been stated that up 84% of projects don't even finish on time. This means basically your stats is either that you have a very good eye for projects or you're the one that is hitting purple drop luck.

While I have received a large percentage of rewards, that says nothing about when they were delivered. I didn't think to start keep track of that on my spreadsheet until I was over 80 or 90 projects backs. I do know that 3 or 4 were no rewards chosen, 1 was delivered within a week of the end of the Kickstarter, and the vast majority were overdue by weeks or months. I never expect on time delivery from Kickstarters, especially if they are wildly successful. The longest wait I have experienced to date is from Steve Jackson Games Ogre project. It was supposed to deliver in Nov 2012. The launch party is the end of this month, and they will start shipping them in October.

The reason I don't worry about delivery dates is because Life Happens. As in Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans. Expecting project creators to be immune to that is just down right silly. 3rd project I backed was a pro photographer getting a grant to live in the Badlands for several weeks and photographer it, he was only asking for $500 and got $1200 for traveling and food while he was there. Posted some very nice shots while he was there, then when he got back he discovered that his hard drive had failed. And his backup drive had failed. Everything was gone. With insurance money and help from a non-profit, he went back and did it again. Got a very nice print out of that project. Eventually. :)

Jag8 wrote:

And lastly, even canceled games and or scams are not rare as you make it seem. Another major one happened in July, along with a few others. It seems that most don't purposely scam people but simply run out of money. Even after being successfully funded on kickstarter.
http://www.actiontrip.com/news/game-on-kickstarter-canceled-after-publisher-spends-all-funds/072613_5 (about "Doom on the Atlantic" or something). And other this year alone and these are just the most high profile ones. The Kobe Beef scam, Mythic (a near obvious fraud but still managed to raise $5,000).

Actually, it was "The Doom That Came to Atlantic City" which is the project I referenced in my post that may or may not be a scam. I thanked Cryptozoic because they are getting together with the game designers (Who were not associated with the Kickstarter other than licensing their game to that project creator.) and are going to publish the game. Then they are giving all the backers a free copy. Needless to say, they have generated enormous amounts of goodwill toward their company in the board game community.

Jag8 wrote:

The problem with spotting more subliminal scams is that it's easy to delay tactic especially with a video game. A dev. could say wait for years without many people getting wise because they expect games to take 2-4 years anyways.Then make up something about a delay or whatnot, add more time, then by the time anyone realize they been had, well all they can do is go post in a forum somewhere because by then the statute of limitations are probably up by now and trying to chase down a company that all but vamoosed 3-4 years after the fact make it harder and time consuming and expensive. Kickstarter is a gold mine for scammers. Kickstarter wont help, they get their cut and could care less after a game is funded, and not many people will bother suing over a $100 or so and that is assuming they can find them. A pledger ask questions too early they are being viewed as impatient. They wait too long to ask questions, they could be got token for a ride and wait around for years before realizing it. It's no win and very high risk for pledgers. They have no protection at all and the protection they can get will cost arm leg and ear and not worth over a few hundred dollars.

While most of them are decent honest folk, there are some bad ones out there some on purpose but many more just lack of experience and running out of cash with nothing to say but "Well sorry, thanks for the cash."
If they wasn't high risk in the first place they could have gotten professional funding from other sources. Never give what will be missed.

The Susan Wilson incident, well they got accused of being a scam and it does look fishy but verdict is not out yet that I know of.

An to make clear, I'm not saying Kickstarter itself is a scam, but it's no more or less risky than some random stranger in person with a bright idea asking for money to fund his idea. Again, most are honest decent folk, but there are some out there that will tug at your heart with words then run off or more likely simply bungle it when the money is received. Many upstart business started in the traditional way end up failing. People starting on kickstarter is no different. A good idea doesn't always mean good business sense to actually pull it off.

First off, someone that is asking for money on Kickstarter may or may not be high risk. Even established companies are having problems getting loans from banks these days. There are a lot of reasons someone might want to fund through crowdsourcing. An independent artist who has a small fanbase and wants to do an album or EP, or a writer who wants to continue writing in a series, but their publisher wants something new. And small projects in things like board games are heading to Kickstarter because it is an easy way to see if there is an audience for that particular item.

I never said there were no scammers. And it is true that it is possible to set up scams on Kickstarter or the other crowdfunding sites. (Although I would argue that Kickstarter is the worst one to do it on. Better to pick IndiGoGo or one of the other sites that allows you to keep any money that is pledged, rather than having to reach your set goal to get any.) But the fact is, the vast majority of projects are not scams. Kickstarter has had 48,460 successfully backed projects. We know of what, 50? attempted scams. (Actually, I could find less than 2 dozen reported since 2011. But that number includes those famous scams Ouya and Pebble Watch.) 10 times that number of unknown, successful scams would be just over 1% of the total successful projects. Which is actually less than what I have encountered, assuming that the Doom creator was actually scamming and not just an idiot. There is a real risk of backing a scam project on Kickstarter. But frankly, it is so low, I don't consider it worth worrying about.

The much larger risk, which is the one that is most likely to occur with this project, is the failure of the creator to be able to follow through, despite their best efforts. There is no way to avoid this risk. It is inherent in the nature of crowdfunding. It is this risk you should be aware of, and take it into account when backing any project, for any amount of money. Is it a game you think looks like fun, who only wants $7,000? If it won't bother you to lose the $20 they want for a copy of the game, then go for it. Is an artist you like that has already more than funded their project, but you still want to support them and like that $2,000 reward? If you don't mind not getting what you pledged for, then again, go for it.

Just be aware that something may happen, and you might lose that $20, or that $2,000, and never receive anything. And most importantly, never pledge more than you can afford on any project.

I never said majority were scams. In fact I specifically said, that majority are decent honest people that isn't a scam and will deliver. or to quote myself with a little added emphasis on the key words that seemed to have been missed. "While MOST of them are decent honest folk, there are some bad ones out there some on purpose BUT MANY MORE just lack of experience and running out of cash"

And just because you haven't encountered any scams or failed projects doesn't mean it hasn't happened and or others haven't ran into them. I never had a problem with my Jaguar, but it would be insulting to insinuate that since I never had issue with my Jaguar, then no one could in a possible manner have a problem with theirs. Which is what you are insinuating.

Overall we are saying the same thing. There are risks in kickstarter projects or any crowdfunding. It isn't a steel solid risk free venture. Some people had luck and never came a cross a scam while many other have, just those people of the Kobe beef thing. I think they had a couple of hundred people pledge. Thus that is at least a couple of hundred people that have came across a scam.

I'm saying it's more common than you think. More common than a rare purple drop. The ones that made the news are the ones that were the bigger cases. Just like majority of the projects that reach funding never hit the news. If ya was to only count what is reported to the news than the scam rate would be significantly higher.

If you read people review of the sight they mention many different projects where they never got the stuff delivered and or got message the project ran out of money and cant continue.

The chances of being struck by lightning is 1 : 280,000 is also about 1% yet, pools still close by regulation and not many people are itching to go play in a lightning storm, and the chance of being killed is even less. Yet the regulations and it's something keep in mind, although the risk is small, because it CAN happen and DOES happen. Although I think the rate of people losing donated money is higher than 1% but overall , the scam and or people KEYORD; AND OR- people that just cant complete the project is still there and it has happened enough where it's worth annotating instead of pretending it's impossible because some people never had it happen to them yet.

By that logic- I never been bit by a dog therefore anyone who said they have been bit is over exaggerating and it cannot happen, because I never been bit.

Warpact
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Tamorand wrote:

Jag, I think what Voltaire was trying to convey is that this particular leg of the discussion does nothing to further the cause of the Phoenix Project and your reasoning falls clearly within the boundaries of common sense.

It's not always necessary or helpful to point out the negative side of reality just because it's there.

Tamorand

This...

My villain, my hero you mean. I always think of my murderers as my heroes.

Gangrel
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One thing I will say about Steve Jackson and the delay behind Ogre is that even though it *was* delayed (by roughly 11 months from the initial estimated date of November 2012), there have been 70 updates from the date of the kickstarter finishing up to right now.

That is roughly an update once a week on the Kickstarter page, on top of the other updates that they have given on their own website page for the game. Hell, even now they are still offering refunds to those who *want* refunds due to the delay in the kickstarter delivering on the goods.

Now, to me, that is going above and beyond the "call of duty" for it, but I am also sure that they took everything into consideration for it, and worked out that even over a year after the donations were given, that they could still afford to give refunds on the project.

*shrugs*

With Kickstarter *is* a risk, and as such, especially from the "unknown" groups and parties, should also be taken into account when judging if it was possible. If there are "big names" attached to the project, there is a greater (if not 100%) chance of it coming to fruition, but even then, those big names are not going to be immune to delays or what not. However, lack of communication with the kickstarter base *will* damage the "public view" of the group there in.

Me? All depends as to how well MWM have taken into consideration all of the comments and recommendations from Kickstarter.

For me, if Kickstarter had approved the project initially, I would have to say that it would have been very touch and go and would have, in my mind, gained very little traction, if any.

I found it annoying in that they (MWM) had mentioned in interviews that they had "researched heavily into other Kickstarters and knew how to go" (paraphrasing), and yet, submitted it *so late* that it missed out on their hyped date (remember, September 8th was the *GO GO GO* date for Kickstarter), and that even if it *had* been approved, there was still stuff that they wanted to put into it, and it wasn't even finished in time (yep, there was still stuff that they knew needed to go into it, but it wasn't even ready for the submission date, nor ready for the friday before the "due date").

Thankfully, Kickstarter DIDNT approve the project in the state that they had submitted it, so they have wisely taken the time to polish it up into the state that it *should* have been in in the first place (if not better)

However, has the damage already been done with the preview that they showed? Who knows? Maybe they can succeed with the kickstarter (I hope that they do), but I would warn them that it could well be an uphill struggle to win over those who had been put off by the low quality of the initial kickstarter.

I have already voiced a lot of my views with the team (one way or another), in terms of how they can improve their look, and also what I feel needs improvement on (and yes, thank you MWM peeps for suggesting that I volunteer... I have already told my reasons as to why for now I wont be).

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

jag40
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Tamorand wrote:

Jag, I think what Voltaire was trying to convey is that this particular leg of the discussion does nothing to further the cause of the Phoenix Project and your reasoning falls clearly within the boundaries of common sense.

It's not always necessary or helpful to point out the negative side of reality just because it's there.

Tamorand

yeah, but at the same time, downplaying risks and or saying there isnt any sets up potential people especially those that are first timers, up for utter failure even if it comes down to a case of delay, ran out of money, or someone died and they have to postpone. Which in the long run reflects even more in a poor manner on the people of this project than simply telling them, "hey, we want to donate, but understand there is a risk." Instead of lying in their face a like a shady salesperson knowing full well there is a downside but instead of being straight up, downplay them and or act like they dont exist.

Each time someone say it's perfectly safe, or there isn o way it can happen or it's about as much chance of a purple dropping, or it never happened, some should speak up.

Because if people believe the hype thinking they will guranteed will get something, who will reinburse them when they have to find out the hard way it's not always glorious? Anyone? Then why not at least help them made a sound decision, and that deicison only can be made not by only upselling it like nothing ever can happen every single time Kickstarter is mentioned, but telling them the ups AND downs.

And those that have doubts or issues or questions, people should or if this is all for the good of the project NEED to stop patronizing and belitting people's concerns. Or maybe he can explain to me how exactly is belittling and patronizing people by saying "If you have doubt, dont donate" is helping the project. I may have missed the memo on that method of making people want to donate.

Shadow Elusive
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You don't seem to realize how many of your gripes come together to create a picture that doesn't match your disgruntlement very well. Supposed research, a hard set date, a last minute submission not up to par...putting a 'believe' spin on it, rather easily produces this:

The MWM team carefully researches all that goes into a Kickstarter. They they proceed to try to make that kickstarter. They are all volunteers trying to do this around their real lives - all of them. During the Kickstarter preparation period, some huge upheavals occurred in the management. As the KS date looms, they struggle like mad to create what they know they need in time, as the date is set in stone as - as you put it Gangrel - the 'GO GO GO' date. I have one or two more personal lines of communication with higher ups in MWM, and those channels, in the last few weeks, went very nearly dead. In the end, they submit at the very last moment, no doubt trying to improve the product every moment along the way, holding back whatever they can in hopes of getting closer to their planned ideals with *that*. And then the date is missed anyway, and as feedback pours in from both players and KS itself (they gave quite a few suggestions beyond the 'must do' changes), they settle down to the fact that the date is missed and they may as well take advantage of that to do it all properly.

Now, the exact mis-match between MWM's pictured ideal and what they submitted to the KS the friday before is not something I'm privy too. Neither are you. But going by the facts we have, a positive picture of them doing their very best t is just as easy to create as one of general failure. So why the negative interpretation?

Doctor Tyche has expressed a lot of satisfaction with the results of the delay, btw.

--------------------------

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snate56
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I, too, while chomping at the bit, am happy that they've had a bit of a reprieve to fine tune things! :)
I so very much appreciate them and the work they are doing, and have already done!

Steve

___

"Listen, and understand. City of Titans is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until we are live!"
Warcabbit

Gangrel
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Shadow Elusive wrote:

So why the negative interpretation?

Why the negative interpretation?

Because as an outsider and without the lines of communication that you personally have, I was getting one side of the story, and maybe in the way that the news was coming up, it seemed like they were running around like headless chickens, scrabbling at the last minute trying to get *something* ready for it.

I feel that they built themselves up a bit too much, were maybe a bit too cocky in the press interviews that they gave (although they did also state the difficulty of developing an MMO). They seemed to have given the impression of wanting to do better than big publishers, whilst also not making the same mistakes as other companies have made.

And yet, if anything, it appears that they made some very basic errors (at least from my point of view).

  • They submitted the Kickstarter at the very last possible moment (later to be revealed at late Wednesday afternoon/evening), and were still hopeful to be able to launch with what they already had to hand.

    Here is "what was missing from their initial kickstarter submission" (taken from one of their facebook posts).

    • A video
    • A few extra graphics
    • The add-ons for the perks
    • Two of their leaderships biographies
  • That is all that they felt that they needed to add to the project... and yet they missed out on mentioning what on earth they *needed* the money for?

  • They were initially very evasive as to WHY it was running late to go live, and as a result, some people were assuming that Kickstarter themselves were dragging their feet over approving the project. Although they were correct in saying that Kickstarter hadn't yet approved the project, given the fast turn around that Kickstarter normally has, it gave the impression to a few people (me included) that there was something else happening here.

    Kickstarter themselves state that it usually takes 2-3 business days for approval, business days do not include the weekend, so if it wasn't approved by Saturday morning, it sure as hell wasn't going to be approved on Sunday. I would have thought that at least someone in the "head office" (using the term loosely here), would have put 2 and 2 together, and put the call out that it was going to be starting late.

  • In the (now deleted facebook post), it came to light that the head of the Art Department had been off for the past few weeks due to illness. It had been mentioned in the Kickstarter that each department head had a deputy to step up to the plate, and yet, the Art lead mentioned that they had been working right up to the friday night, and they themselves were not even aware of the Kickstarter preview going live... if they had been aware, they would have pulled an all nighter before hand to get more stuff ready.

    The Art Lead has my sympathies for them being ill during a time where pressure and stress is (for them) at an all time high.

    So why on earth hadn't the Art 2nd in Command stepped up to the plate and pulled out all the stops?

  • Above all else, I think that they should take their time, and only confirm/date stuff once they know that they can hit it. When they announced the initial kickstarter date, I was under the impression that it just needed a bit of spit and polish (which 6 weeks should be MORE than enough time to do) and were pretty much good to go. Granted, I have not been following Kickstarter projects, so I don't know if it is the norm to announce so far in advance a date for kicktarter, when they were so (in my mind at least) unprepared, and didn't have much to hand to even when the date loomed closer and closer.

    eg Mutant Football League: I can find NO notice of them pre-announcing their kickstarter with my google search skills. However, once it went live, lots of mentions of it.

    Pathfinder Online. Well they cheated a little bit, by doing a tech demo as an initial tech demo. However, they never mentioned nor spoke up about the kickstarter before hand (at least according to their website). They did however have news about the MMO rights being sorted out back in November 2011, but were quiet in the run up to the kickstarter.

Quote:

Doctor Tyche has expressed a lot of satisfaction with the results of the delay, btw.

And I should hope so as well, because what was submitted was (in my mind) very low quality compared to some other kickstarters that I have seen, even when you compare it to indie titles (and other small group projects).

As I said, I am *glad* that it wasn't approved for launch when it was meant to, because it has given them time to polish it up.

I think that more than anything else, their major problem has been as to how they have communicated stuff through to us. Considering how badly some "big name companies" have been in terms of communication, it should have been something easier to achieve.

Notice how badly "big name companies" get treated for their lack of openness when they release news, especially if it is something bad. In a time where transparency is requested on a regular basis, they (MWM) have given the impression that this was something that they could skimp on (or ignore).

Video for the kickstarter not ready in time due to the computer blowing up? Let us know that. Someone will probably buy (or donate) a new graphics card to the person.
Artwork not ready in time due to art lead falling ill (or major injury)? Put it across as nicely as possible, but at least let us know. The community will break open their wallets to help out.

These are all *good results* to letting us know "bad stuff has happened". Hell, if anything, it would help quiet the dissenters, and make Missing Worlds Media look better. Yes, we know that they are all volunteers, but without knowing that something is wrong, then we have to assume that everything is going *well*, or at least OK. When it *does* goes wrong, the most common "excuse" from the general public is "well they are all volunteers". Yes that is a reason, but it cannot be the ONLY reason as to why stuff goes wrong/delayed/the world is burning around you.

Sure, there is some information that should never be shared (normally for legal reasons, although you can normally mention "due to legal reasons... "), but if there is a reason for anything, get down to the root of it, and tell us as to why. If it hadn't been for me asking over on facebook group, would we (as a collective) have actually known that the kickstarter was delayed due to how late they actually submitted the project, and not due to (in some peoples eyes) Kickstarter dragging their feet?

Some people out there *waves over at the Titan Network* might have a negative view of me, I know that I caused some friction over there. Maybe for the right reasons, maybe for the wrong reasons... but for the people that know me, if I didn't care about something, I wouldn't talk about it, I would just let it sit by the wayside.

The fact that even now, a year down the line since the closure announcement, I am still following TPP, maybe not avidly, but I do like to stay up to date with the comings and goings, and I do read the Titan Network regularly (in my mind, some people over there DO need help with their anger problems towards a certain company).

Oh, and I am also going to call a spade a spade. I will be honest and I rarely try to sugar coat anything.

I feel that I try to give honest constructive criticism about failings, but when I give support/praise, then I feel that they have earnt it.

Gangrel/cmgangrel (and chances, you have seen some of my comments on the MWM facebook group)

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Battler
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The fact that Gangrels post has brought me up to date with what is going on rather than anyone at MWM should be the last time this happens.

All we want is to be told. I was chomping at the bit 10 days ago, and still waiting to find out what is going on from official channels.

Don't be politicians... honesty is the heroic thing to do ;)

jag40
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yeah. Basically this.

Mantic
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Gangrel wrote:

Video for the kickstarter not ready in time due to the computer blowing up? Let us know that. Someone will probably buy (or donate) a new graphics card to the person.
Artwork not ready in time due to art lead falling ill (or major injury)? Put it across as nicely as possible, but at least let us know. The community will break open their wallets to help out.

These are all *good results* to letting us know "bad stuff has happened". Hell, if anything, it would help quiet the dissenters, and make Missing Worlds Media look better. Yes, we know that they are all volunteers, but without knowing that something is wrong, then we have to assume that everything is going *well*, or at least OK. When it *does* goes wrong, the most common "excuse" from the general public is "well they are all volunteers". Yes that is a reason, but it cannot be the ONLY reason as to why stuff goes wrong/delayed/the world is burning around you.

There is a balance to be struck, especially with Kickstarter. We don't want to encourage excuse after excuse after excuse, because that moves from "transparent" to "unprofessional" quickly. Just as constant reminders that work is being done by amateurs or that their time is divided between this and real jobs can only cause a loss of confidence.

I'm not really wanting to tell MWM how they should manage their project, but I believe it is probably even a mistake to try to account for the specific use of Kickstarter funds. It should be none of our business how the money is managed, barring some sort of itemized list of projected expenses can be provided in advance: for example, if MWM will be subcontracting specific production from an agency with their own clear bid, or the specific cost of licensing code access to the Unreal Engine (don't expect them to be able to proceed with a $99 UDK license because the networking code, at least, will need to be modified or replaced). Give backers an impression that we control what is done with the money, and MWM will wind up crippled by demands and criticism over every spending decision.

As backers, we need to be able to trust the company to manage that for themselves.

Gangrel
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Mantic wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Video for the kickstarter not ready in time due to the computer blowing up? Let us know that. Someone will probably buy (or donate) a new graphics card to the person.
Artwork not ready in time due to art lead falling ill (or major injury)? Put it across as nicely as possible, but at least let us know. The community will break open their wallets to help out.

These are all *good results* to letting us know "bad stuff has happened". Hell, if anything, it would help quiet the dissenters, and make Missing Worlds Media look better. Yes, we know that they are all volunteers, but without knowing that something is wrong, then we have to assume that everything is going *well*, or at least OK. When it *does* goes wrong, the most common "excuse" from the general public is "well they are all volunteers". Yes that is a reason, but it cannot be the ONLY reason as to why stuff goes wrong/delayed/the world is burning around you.

There is a balance to be struck, especially with Kickstarter. We don't want to encourage excuse after excuse after excuse, because that moves from "transparent" to "unprofessional" quickly. Just as constant reminders that work is being done by amateurs or that their time is divided between this and real jobs can only cause a loss of confidence.

Agreed on this one, there is a balance to be struck, but I was thinking generally speaking along the lines of "I know we told you that it would be ready by X/Y/Z, but due to A/B/C it has been delayed". As long as its honest, I am sure that most people will accept it.

Quote:

I'm not really wanting to tell MWM how they should manage their project, but I believe it is probably even a mistake to try to account for the specific use of Kickstarter funds. It should be none of our business how the money is managed, barring some sort of itemized list of projected expenses can be provided in advance: for example, if MWM will be subcontracting specific production from an agency with their own clear bid, or the specific cost of licensing code access to the Unreal Engine (don't expect them to be able to proceed with a $99 UDK license because the networking code, at least, will need to be modified or replaced). Give backers an impression that we control what is done with the money, and MWM will wind up crippled by demands and criticism over every spending decision.

As backers, we need to be able to trust the company to manage that for themselves.

I wasn't going to be asking for an itemized billing section, but at least giving us an idea as to what the money would be spent on, if any out sourcing of assets would happen, payment for setting up the company... that general level of stuff (and yes, I have seen a kickstarter actually state that they would be using some of the funds to set up a company for the project).

I don't need the itemization to be to a degree of

1 x Windows 8 license
10 x site license for Maya
10 x site license for UDK (or what not)
300 x balloons for party

However, saying it along the lines of "upgrading our UDK license so we can achieve what we need better buy being able to modify more of the code sections, buying licenses for better software/streamlining of workflow for artists/3d modelers" etc, that is the "high level" idea that I think that most people would be ok with.

However, if its "300K for software we need", that is possibly a bit too low on the detail level (in my mind at least). Because people will just suffer the "sticker shock" of seeing such a high value.

*shrugs* each to their own,

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Justice Blues
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jag40 wrote:
Justice Blues wrote:
Jag8 wrote:
Justice Blues wrote:
Ellis wrote:

Yes, some people do scam and vanish. Any investment is a risk, and Kickstarters are very high risk. There is a very real chance that, while this project is not a scam, it could fail. MMOs are extremely difficult to make and even harder to make well. It's a leap of faith and and a desire to see something be made that couldn't otherwise be made.

There is a big difference between the risk of a project not succeeding and a scam. As of right now I have backed 184 projects on 3 different crowdfunding sites, 178 of them on Twitter. 163 of them were successfully funded, and I have received my promised rewards for 81 projects so far. There are 41 projects that are late with their rewards at this time, with 2 or 3 that I'm guessing won't be able to ever fulfill their rewards, and one that may or may not be a scam (But it someone else is stepping in to make things good on that one. Thanks Cryptozoic) In my experience, out right failures of projects are uncommon, and the threat of scams even more so. Not non-existent by any means, but certainly on the rare or ultra-rare level of drops.

Or you're just good at picking them given that the stat of kickstarters that fail is about 41% overall all projects and in gaming only about 34% succeed. or about 66% failure rate.

Yes, I am good at picking them. I don't just back everything I see that looks interesting (couldn't afford that anyway) and if it isn't someone I am familiar with I try and check out any references they give. I do sometimes back something for fun or because it sounds like a good cause. Almost always for $10 or $15 bucks and no reward. So far, all of those that have funded have followed through and did what they promised, which is somewhat surprising since the charity or non-profit stuff pulling in lots of low dollar amounts would be the easiest way to scam.

Jag8 wrote:

It's been stated that up 84% of projects don't even finish on time. This means basically your stats is either that you have a very good eye for projects or you're the one that is hitting purple drop luck.

While I have received a large percentage of rewards, that says nothing about when they were delivered. I didn't think to start keep track of that on my spreadsheet until I was over 80 or 90 projects backs. I do know that 3 or 4 were no rewards chosen, 1 was delivered within a week of the end of the Kickstarter, and the vast majority were overdue by weeks or months. I never expect on time delivery from Kickstarters, especially if they are wildly successful. The longest wait I have experienced to date is from Steve Jackson Games Ogre project. It was supposed to deliver in Nov 2012. The launch party is the end of this month, and they will start shipping them in October.

The reason I don't worry about delivery dates is because Life Happens. As in Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans. Expecting project creators to be immune to that is just down right silly. 3rd project I backed was a pro photographer getting a grant to live in the Badlands for several weeks and photographer it, he was only asking for $500 and got $1200 for traveling and food while he was there. Posted some very nice shots while he was there, then when he got back he discovered that his hard drive had failed. And his backup drive had failed. Everything was gone. With insurance money and help from a non-profit, he went back and did it again. Got a very nice print out of that project. Eventually. :)

Jag8 wrote:

And lastly, even canceled games and or scams are not rare as you make it seem. Another major one happened in July, along with a few others. It seems that most don't purposely scam people but simply run out of money. Even after being successfully funded on kickstarter.
http://www.actiontrip.com/news/game-on-kickstarter-canceled-after-publisher-spends-all-funds/072613_5 (about "Doom on the Atlantic" or something). And other this year alone and these are just the most high profile ones. The Kobe Beef scam, Mythic (a near obvious fraud but still managed to raise $5,000).

Actually, it was "The Doom That Came to Atlantic City" which is the project I referenced in my post that may or may not be a scam. I thanked Cryptozoic because they are getting together with the game designers (Who were not associated with the Kickstarter other than licensing their game to that project creator.) and are going to publish the game. Then they are giving all the backers a free copy. Needless to say, they have generated enormous amounts of goodwill toward their company in the board game community.

Jag8 wrote:

The problem with spotting more subliminal scams is that it's easy to delay tactic especially with a video game. A dev. could say wait for years without many people getting wise because they expect games to take 2-4 years anyways.Then make up something about a delay or whatnot, add more time, then by the time anyone realize they been had, well all they can do is go post in a forum somewhere because by then the statute of limitations are probably up by now and trying to chase down a company that all but vamoosed 3-4 years after the fact make it harder and time consuming and expensive. Kickstarter is a gold mine for scammers. Kickstarter wont help, they get their cut and could care less after a game is funded, and not many people will bother suing over a $100 or so and that is assuming they can find them. A pledger ask questions too early they are being viewed as impatient. They wait too long to ask questions, they could be got token for a ride and wait around for years before realizing it. It's no win and very high risk for pledgers. They have no protection at all and the protection they can get will cost arm leg and ear and not worth over a few hundred dollars.

While most of them are decent honest folk, there are some bad ones out there some on purpose but many more just lack of experience and running out of cash with nothing to say but "Well sorry, thanks for the cash."
If they wasn't high risk in the first place they could have gotten professional funding from other sources. Never give what will be missed.

The Susan Wilson incident, well they got accused of being a scam and it does look fishy but verdict is not out yet that I know of.

An to make clear, I'm not saying Kickstarter itself is a scam, but it's no more or less risky than some random stranger in person with a bright idea asking for money to fund his idea. Again, most are honest decent folk, but there are some out there that will tug at your heart with words then run off or more likely simply bungle it when the money is received. Many upstart business started in the traditional way end up failing. People starting on kickstarter is no different. A good idea doesn't always mean good business sense to actually pull it off.

First off, someone that is asking for money on Kickstarter may or may not be high risk. Even established companies are having problems getting loans from banks these days. There are a lot of reasons someone might want to fund through crowdsourcing. An independent artist who has a small fanbase and wants to do an album or EP, or a writer who wants to continue writing in a series, but their publisher wants something new. And small projects in things like board games are heading to Kickstarter because it is an easy way to see if there is an audience for that particular item.

I never said there were no scammers. And it is true that it is possible to set up scams on Kickstarter or the other crowdfunding sites. (Although I would argue that Kickstarter is the worst one to do it on. Better to pick IndiGoGo or one of the other sites that allows you to keep any money that is pledged, rather than having to reach your set goal to get any.) But the fact is, the vast majority of projects are not scams. Kickstarter has had 48,460 successfully backed projects. We know of what, 50? attempted scams. (Actually, I could find less than 2 dozen reported since 2011. But that number includes those famous scams Ouya and Pebble Watch.) 10 times that number of unknown, successful scams would be just over 1% of the total successful projects. Which is actually less than what I have encountered, assuming that the Doom creator was actually scamming and not just an idiot. There is a real risk of backing a scam project on Kickstarter. But frankly, it is so low, I don't consider it worth worrying about.

The much larger risk, which is the one that is most likely to occur with this project, is the failure of the creator to be able to follow through, despite their best efforts. There is no way to avoid this risk. It is inherent in the nature of crowdfunding. It is this risk you should be aware of, and take it into account when backing any project, for any amount of money. Is it a game you think looks like fun, who only wants $7,000? If it won't bother you to lose the $20 they want for a copy of the game, then go for it. Is an artist you like that has already more than funded their project, but you still want to support them and like that $2,000 reward? If you don't mind not getting what you pledged for, then again, go for it.

Just be aware that something may happen, and you might lose that $20, or that $2,000, and never receive anything. And most importantly, never pledge more than you can afford on any project.

And just because you haven't encountered any scams or failed projects doesn't mean it hasn't happened and or others haven't ran into them. I never had a problem with my Jaguar, but it would be insulting to insinuate that since I never had issue with my Jaguar, then no one could in a possible manner have a problem with theirs. Which is what you are insinuating.

The fact you can put this in the conversation tells me you either aren't actually reading and comprehending what I have been writing, or you just don't care, since there is a refutation to the first sentence in the first section you quoted. And you are putting words and sentiments into my mouth that I have never said about the level of risk in backing on Kickstarter. So I am not going to bother replying to this particular conversation any more.

Tamorand
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None of your/our business...period.

Entitled, taking for granted, selfish, negative,....these are the words that come to mind when reading any of these posts.
Why do you insist on taking this to the negative?
Why do you insist on pointing out the things that create conflict?
Why do you insist on driving this to the point of derision and division?

It's not about you....it's about US...this community, this family.
You aren't protecting US with this line of discussion.
You aren't providing us with needed counsel or productive debate.
You ARE complaining before it's time.
You ARE being childish and impatient.
You ARE being selfish and inconsiderate.
You BOTH seem to be Adults and not children, so I implore you to simply drop this line of discussion and use your obviously sharp minds to better function instead of causing strife where it isn't productive.

Focusing on MWM's ability to Facebook/Forum post to tell you something that is already Really Obvious is just a way to cause more strife for no other reason than to debate/fight.

They are working on it....relax.
They do not, and should not, be wasting time(and money) by making itemized lists in order to make you feel better about an investment that you have yet to pay out.

Let them work, let them get the KS created, let them make OUR game for US.

And if you are per-inclined to be one of those loud voices that must point out all that is negative around you...
Can't you wait until it's prudent to do so?

There are 50 forums below with discussion threads for nearly every aspect of the game...Go there, help out.

Point out what is wrong with the logic's being discussed below, that's where it's needed.
Creative and Critical minds like yours could be put to much better use.

Tamorand

Justice Blues
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Mantic wrote:
Gangrel wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Video for the kickstarter not ready in time due to the computer blowing up? Let us know that. Someone will probably buy (or donate) a new graphics card to the person.
Artwork not ready in time due to art lead falling ill (or major injury)? Put it across as nicely as possible, but at least let us know. The community will break open their wallets to help out.

These are all *good results* to letting us know "bad stuff has happened". Hell, if anything, it would help quiet the dissenters, and make Missing Worlds Media look better. Yes, we know that they are all volunteers, but without knowing that something is wrong, then we have to assume that everything is going *well*, or at least OK. When it *does* goes wrong, the most common "excuse" from the general public is "well they are all volunteers". Yes that is a reason, but it cannot be the ONLY reason as to why stuff goes wrong/delayed/the world is burning around you.

There is a balance to be struck, especially with Kickstarter. We don't want to encourage excuse after excuse after excuse, because that moves from "transparent" to "unprofessional" quickly. Just as constant reminders that work is being done by amateurs or that their time is divided between this and real jobs can only cause a loss of confidence.

I'm not really wanting to tell MWM how they should manage their project, but I believe it is probably even a mistake to try to account for the specific use of Kickstarter funds. It should be none of our business how the money is managed, barring some sort of itemized list of projected expenses can be provided in advance: for example, if MWM will be subcontracting specific production from an agency with their own clear bid, or the specific cost of licensing code access to the Unreal Engine (don't expect them to be able to proceed with a $99 UDK license because the networking code, at least, will need to be modified or replaced). Give backers an impression that we control what is done with the money, and MWM will wind up crippled by demands and criticism over every spending decision.

As backers, we need to be able to trust the company to manage that for themselves.

I agree that we don't want to keep hearing excuses about why the project isn't up and running yet. But we also aren't hearing anything, which is not so good. I've followed a couple of projects from not too long after they decided to do a project until it was over, and they both got delayed at the approval process. One for technical reasons with Amazon and their bank, the other for improvements Kickstarter suggested. Both were much smaller and simpler than this one. But they let the people waiting for the projects know what was going on.

For a project like this, an actual budget being posted is probably not a great idea. Some have done that, Amanda Palmer and Marian Call come to mind off the top of my head. But Steve Jackson Games never did, and I don't think anyone expected them too. They did give a rough idea of their costs however. Which is not unusual, and a good idea.

jag40
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Gangrel wrote:
Mantic wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Video for the kickstarter not ready in time due to the computer blowing up? Let us know that. Someone will probably buy (or donate) a new graphics card to the person.
Artwork not ready in time due to art lead falling ill (or major injury)? Put it across as nicely as possible, but at least let us know. The community will break open their wallets to help out.

These are all *good results* to letting us know "bad stuff has happened". Hell, if anything, it would help quiet the dissenters, and make Missing Worlds Media look better. Yes, we know that they are all volunteers, but without knowing that something is wrong, then we have to assume that everything is going *well*, or at least OK. When it *does* goes wrong, the most common "excuse" from the general public is "well they are all volunteers". Yes that is a reason, but it cannot be the ONLY reason as to why stuff goes wrong/delayed/the world is burning around you.

There is a balance to be struck, especially with Kickstarter. We don't want to encourage excuse after excuse after excuse, because that moves from "transparent" to "unprofessional" quickly. Just as constant reminders that work is being done by amateurs or that their time is divided between this and real jobs can only cause a loss of confidence.

Agreed on this one, there is a balance to be struck, but I was thinking generally speaking along the lines of "I know we told you that it would be ready by X/Y/Z, but due to A/B/C it has been delayed". As long as its honest, I am sure that most people will accept it.

Quote:

I'm not really wanting to tell MWM how they should manage their project, but I believe it is probably even a mistake to try to account for the specific use of Kickstarter funds. It should be none of our business how the money is managed, barring some sort of itemized list of projected expenses can be provided in advance: for example, if MWM will be subcontracting specific production from an agency with their own clear bid, or the specific cost of licensing code access to the Unreal Engine (don't expect them to be able to proceed with a $99 UDK license because the networking code, at least, will need to be modified or replaced). Give backers an impression that we control what is done with the money, and MWM will wind up crippled by demands and criticism over every spending decision.

As backers, we need to be able to trust the company to manage that for themselves.

I wasn't going to be asking for an itemized billing section, but at least giving us an idea as to what the money would be spent on, if any out sourcing of assets would happen, payment for setting up the company... that general level of stuff (and yes, I have seen a kickstarter actually state that they would be using some of the funds to set up a company for the project).

I don't need the itemization to be to a degree of

1 x Windows 8 license
10 x site license for Maya
10 x site license for UDK (or what not)
300 x balloons for party

However, saying it along the lines of "upgrading our UDK license so we can achieve what we need better buy being able to modify more of the code sections, buying licenses for better software/streamlining of workflow for artists/3d modelers" etc, that is the "high level" idea that I think that most people would be ok with.

However, if its "300K for software we need", that is possibly a bit too low on the detail level (in my mind at least). Because people will just suffer the "sticker shock" of seeing such a high value.

*shrugs* each to their own,

I was going to say something along these lines but looks like you covered it.
Delays happen, yes. Most people understand delays happens, indeed. The key is understanding that "hey, we planned on this and that but the plan went bork because that and this happened" keeps the confidence. Instead of remaining silence until people starter asking and prodding a few days to weeks later "Hey, wasnt this and that supposed to happen?" or "Hey what happened? and get reply, yet again, "Well we are volunteers working between day jobs and wait." That dont instill or help confidence and can degrade confidence.

And sometimes these small companies forget that the people that they ask for money from come from all walks of life. Some, know how small businesses work, many are kickstarter vets, some know legal, some know about deadlines, some know office politics, some know about investing, some knwo finances, some know programming ,some know about game building and maybe built a few themselves, some know about management, some know about working with volunteers, some know about red tape in businesses, some know PR, some know press, some know about customer relations, some even know a bit about the importance of image of companies and word of mouth, some know working in complaint sections, some may even be speech writers for big CEOs that have to make a press release because the product is killing people or not working as intended, some may even know about prepping for congressional hearings. Meaning, not all customers donors prospective consumers are dumber than a bag of rocks and most dont take kindly when their intelligence is taken as a joke and treated as if they are merely sheep that should accept any old seemingly half baked answers without question. (no offense to DeathSheepFromHell).

So to some, relying on the excuse of volunteers dont fly because whether they realize it or not, they are not the firts and probably wont be the last entity that worked with majority volunteers, and most STILL get stuff done on time and take responsibility when stuff goes awry and those people and some probably will see the excuse of "well we are volunteers" as a lame cop out and question, how dedicated are they on seeing this thing through especially when they formed and present themselves asa company, for profit for that matter according to Washington state records. While on the other hand, since they are a company, volunteer or not, people will naturally expect them to act like a professional company. Do some professional companies have no clue to what they are doing at times? Of course. And usually they catch massive flack when it shows and MWM is no different nor immune to that reaction no matter how in high regards they hold themsleves as the exception. The problem and issue is not because stuff goes awry. Soemtimes it cant be help but how the company respond and what they do to try and make sure it dont happen or correct the mistake is the difference between happy customers that love them and people saying, "that company is borked." There is no such thing asa perfect company. Even Paragon Studios had plenty of "WTF just happened moments!' But they handled most of those moments with "look guys this is what happened." and with grace WITHOUT people having to dig for in burid in some reply to some poster on Facebook or pull proverbial teeth to get an honest answer. And people loved them for it mostly. They not only gained confidence that they had interest in the customers but they also gained the repsect of the customers. Respect is something that ussualy cant be boguht with an " We are holier than thou and how dare thou question us? Thou shall not question the gods for this is a gift from the god and you peons should be greatful to be in the presence of greatness and be satified with anything we give you!" attitude.

Most corporation have "volunteers" called interns. Would it be a confidence builder if everytime something goes wrong, they say "well the interns dont work here full time and have to work between their other job and here." Most charities work by volunteers and would it instill confidence if they said the reason the donations are not being used correctly or released to the needy is because the amount of volunteers? In a nutshell, it's does not show much appreciation for the work of volunteers internally to constantly throw them under the bus everytime there is a delay, even if the person doing the throwing is in the volunteer group.

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I won't quote the whole wall of text above, but will reply to the last paragraph (in a personal capacity rather than officially on behalf of MWM):

Quote:

Most corporation have "volunteers" called interns. Would it be a confidence builder if everytime something goes wrong, they say "well the interns dont work here full time and have to work between their other job and here." Most charities work by volunteers and would it instill confidence if they said the reason the donations are not being used correctly or released to the needy is because the amount of volunteers? In a nutshell, it's does not show much appreciation for the work of volunteers internally to constantly throw them under the bus everytime there is a delay, even if the person doing the throwing is in the volunteer group.

Most environments you describe have SOME full time staff as well as the interns, we don't have any so real life and day jobs can intervene either short term or in a more permanent way with people changing day job responsibilities and finding their ability to spend time on the project curtailed pretty much overnight. Dealing with this sort of problem is less common in a non-volunteer situation. We've had to deal with this a few times and it does set things back, particularly when tight deadlines approach.

Tech Team and Forum Moderator

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Tamorand wrote:

None of your/our business...period.

...

They do not, and should not, be wasting time(and money) by making itemized lists in order to make you feel better about an investment that you have yet to pay out.

You do realise that MWM already commented that they knew it was important to give an outline of what they needed the money for, and that was one of the things they were working on to include in the Kickstarter? Maybe that was brought up in the FB posts they deleted and you didn't see it.

I think there might be a divide between the people who saw the KS preview,. and the people who didn't. It was only up for a few hours, and a large proportion of that wasn't in prime time US. I saw the preview, and I saw (and contributed to) the feedback, which was all thoughtful and extremely constructive. Honestly, the preview KS was not good. It had major omissions, that went way beyond the list of items they said they still had to add. Like Gangrel, I'm really, really glad that Kickstarter suggested revisions, because I have doubts that the KS as presented would've funded -- I didn't already now about the project and the people involved, there's no way I would've contributed.

Gangrel, I think you in particular have been making some great points, here and on FB. It's possible to both very much want MWM to get their funding and make a great game, and to say "I think there are some problems, and they are X, Y and Z." I really, really want this project to succeed, and that's why I don't think it's helpful to just sit back and trust that MWM (who, as everyone keeps pointing out, are a group of volunteers doing this on their own time, without previous experience of creating and running an MMO) will always do the right thing.

---

Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for? - Robert Browning

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The posts are following a path you don't want them too MWM. Seems as though some are beginning to question your integrity. An unfortunate hole that will get much deeper which in turn will cause resource loss for your future endeavors.

Iced

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I missed the Kickstarter preview. In fact I just found out about this whole project the very Sunday they were supposed to release it.
I don't do Facebook, I don't do Twitter.
I don't CARE that I haven't heard anything! I know that I will, when they can get to it.

And frankly, I'm tired of these walls of text that do nothing but repeat, over and over, the same damn thing.

Steve

___

"Listen, and understand. City of Titans is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until we are live!"
Warcabbit

jag40
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Minotaur wrote:

I won't quote the whole wall of text above, but will reply to the last paragraph (in a personal capacity rather than officially on behalf of MWM):

Quote:

Most corporation have "volunteers" called interns. Would it be a confidence builder if everytime something goes wrong, they say "well the interns dont work here full time and have to work between their other job and here." Most charities work by volunteers and would it instill confidence if they said the reason the donations are not being used correctly or released to the needy is because the amount of volunteers? In a nutshell, it's does not show much appreciation for the work of volunteers internally to constantly throw them under the bus everytime there is a delay, even if the person doing the throwing is in the volunteer group.

Most environments you describe have SOME full time staff as well as the interns, we don't have any so real life and day jobs can intervene either short term or in a more permanent way with people changing day job responsibilities and finding their ability to spend time on the project curtailed pretty much overnight. Dealing with this sort of problem is less common in a non-volunteer situation. We've had to deal with this a few times and it does set things back, particularly when tight deadlines approach.

That is true.

But the point remains either way, when it boils down, they see a company, MWM, and volunteers or not, the expectations will mostly be the same out of a company.

When setting deadlines or making announcements the expectations is that the company take that, the volunteer issue, into account when making deadlines.

Like getting a passport. Every wonder why they say 1-3 months when actually on average they are done shipped and recieved within a few weeks? Just in case issues arises and they have some leeway with what they announced. Just many companies say "3-4 business days to process payments" when usually it's immediately and shipped out in many casesd the same day. Or debit card replacement, 7-10 days when usually it arrives within 3. Leeway just in case crap happens or a delay or they get swamped. The IRS does it all the time every year. Up to three weeks to process and another three weeks to receive payment yet usually end up being two weeks total once the process starts and thye recieve paperwork. People love recieving stuff early even if it's an artificial created early timeline compared to receiving stuff late.

Like end of 2015 was it? the game is expected ot be near completion. Which is fine but with a bunch of volunteers and seemingly not sure when it will switch over to full time staff between now and then, isnt end of 2015 a bit tight of a deadline to meet?

Cinnder
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I've been following the Phoenix Project since its inception because I think it's my best hope to ever have a CoH-like experience again, and I have a lot of faith in the individuals involved. I want this game to be at least as good as CoH. And I want it to succeed. More than anything.

I also happen to agree with Gangrel. It's not the delay that makes me nervous about backing this project; it's the silence. Delays happen. But if someone is expecting my money, I should understand *why* things have gone off-plan. And what is being done to rectify this. All the actions and decisions made by MWM now inform our expectations of what MWM will be like as a company we plan to pay for a (really cool) ongoing service. Also, I should not have to look anywhere but the company's own website. Facebook or whatever is fine as an adjunct, but a company's web site is the primary source of information on that company.

When people like Gangrel point out problems, that's not entitlement or being negative. It's the most valuable thing to a company (after income): customer feedback. It's the perfect chance for a company to target areas for improvement. I believe Gangrel wants TPP to be as successful as I want it to be. Otherwise he wouldn't bother suggesting improvements. What's the old rule? For every complaint from a loyal customer, you've lost 4 customers who didn't bother to say anything. **The ones who complain are still on your side.**

I don't *want* to be nervous about this project. I want to believe in it. But silence breeds doubts. We understand that the team is busy, but a word -- here, on this website -- every so often on the status of the project would go a lonnnng way in putting doubts to rest.

Note: I'm still on MWM's side.

-----

Spurn all ye kindle.

1 eye archer
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I think we can all agree that we want this to be successful. It should also be understandable that many people worry when they are only getting speculation & comments thrown around in the forums. There has been a rather long amount of time since the planned day of the kick starter then the update of things being corrected to today. People would just like to know what is the current status. Reasons for delays are MUCH MUCH better then silence.

Deeds Not Words

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1 eye archer wrote:

I think we can all agree that we want this to be successful. It should also be understandable that many people worry when they are only getting speculation & comments thrown around in the forums. There has been a rather long amount of time since the planned day of the kick starter then the update of things being corrected to today. People would just like to know what is the current status. Reasons for delays are MUCH MUCH better then silence.

I heartily agree. This is starting to remind me of the IT department at work - they don't like to say anything to our users about problems until they have a solution ready. This means utter silence about problems the users are having while the problem is being diagnosed, researched, a fix developed, etc. Unfortunately, from the user perspecitive the same thing happens when the IT department is ignoring a problem - utter silence..

DeathSheepFromHell
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Gangrel wrote:
  • In the (now deleted facebook post), it came to light that the head of the Art Department had been off for the past few weeks due to illness. It had been mentioned in the Kickstarter that each department head had a deputy to step up to the plate, and yet, the Art lead mentioned that they had been working right up to the friday night, and they themselves were not even aware of the Kickstarter preview going live... if they had been aware, they would have pulled an all nighter before hand to get more stuff ready.

    The Art Lead has my sympathies for them being ill during a time where pressure and stress is (for them) at an all time high.

    So why on earth hadn't the Art 2nd in Command stepped up to the plate and pulled out all the stops?

I'm not going to try to address the rest of the points, because it isn't really mine to do, but this one I can answer straight up: until a few days ago there was no backup to the Art Director (as some may have noticed, my signature block has changed). Mainly because the various shake-ups right before the KS happened to result in that (among a great many other things). And, because Murphy Happens, and it would be pretty much the worst possible time, that's when the Art Director got sick, which made it even more difficult to juggle things enough that appointing a second could be dealt with.

The rest of it is purely my fault: I was hesitant when it was first discussed as a possibility, for a variety of reasons (both personal ones and ones involving my other duties in the project). So I suggested that we should tread water and see if a more suitable candidate cropped up. True to form, I think it was only a day or two later that things went so far south we were waving to penguins.

Speaking as one of the folks involved in working on the KS submission: we actually did discuss whether we needed to ask Art to do something like that, and due to the KS policies around updates, we concluded that it wasn't worth the cost in exhaustion and burn — that we would get more and better work out of those folks by *not* having them pull an all-nighter, and that it would be simple enough to update the graphics and art as we got it from them.

I actually still believe that was the correct decision, because that is *exactly* what happened with the majority of the stuff that was missing when we submitted to KS. By Sunday a large portion of it was prepped and ready to go. There were things on the KS feedback list that we fixed simply by pushing those to the site; what we've been working on since that point has been almost entirely stuff that we hadn't planned for changes in, and thus could not have been asked of the Art crew at any point before KS sent their feedback.

So, for the problems this covered: mea culpa. I can only say that the parts that caused the majority of the this particular part of the overall breakdown are things we have either dealt with now, or are actively in the process of dealing with (for example, I'm still settling into the role, and need to sort out some coordination items with Petalstorm so that I know where and how she's tracking some of the longer-term stuff).


Assistant Art Director, Tech Team
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warcabbit
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And, as the Project Lead, I'm putting my reputation behind this. It's one that several of you, in this thread, know. Ellis and Justice Blues for two, for certain. I've known both of them since before CoH, Ellis from a little place called Crucible City, JB from somewhere else, along with Zombie Man.

I strive to live up to the wisdom of Uncle Scrooge. I'm going to get us through us by being "tougher than the toughies and smarter than the smarties—and I’ll make my [game] square!"

As far as the difficulties we've covered, I think Sheep explained the situation as best we can. It's been a very harrowing few weeks, and this is really the first chance I've had to reach out to you all.

But I think we've really gelled together in the last month. It's amazing what happens when people are given a task that requires every inch of their abilities. We're going to make this happen. I know it. I know my people.

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Thanks, rednames. I do sympathise with the craziness you guys have been going through, especially in light of your being volunteers and not paid employees (yet!). It sets my mind at ease just to hear something official directly from the devs instead of second-hand reports and conjecture. Although you describe difficulties encountered, overall I get a very positive sense that stuff is being sorted out and we go onwards and upwards from here!

-----

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Just as a slightly linked (as in its to do with a Kickstarter project that funded, but has hit problems), its worthwhile for the dev team to look at Clang by Neil Stephenson and the problems that it has had to combat recently.

Good words I feel that should be taken into consideration, from ALL sides. Sure, his project is not dead, but it is going far far slower than expected (running out of cash being the main reason really). At least they managed to get a demo of the game ready back in April (which was the last update previous to the one that came yesterday).

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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