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IO Sets and the Power of Choice

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Comicsluvr
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IO Sets and the Power of Choice

I'm sure we've been up and down the Crafting subject and we're not sure how Enhancements will work exactly. I was looking at Mids recently and a thought struck me regarding IO sets and all of those wonderful things we bankrupted ourselves for on the Market.

I'm a Replayability kind of guy. I LIKE doing the same thing in different ways. I made up over a hundred toons and deleted twice as many in my 5 years with CoH because I liked exploring different concepts. But one thing that always stuck in my head was that regardless of what Power Sets you had you always tended to come back around to the same few IO sets because many of them were (relatively) junk. I don't feel it has to be this way.

For non-melee types there were only a few options to resist KB. You could leave Hover on (one of my faves), take Acrobatics (a big End cost and a power slot), or take one of the few -KB IOs. But taking those IOs prompted you to want the rest of that set at least for the power the -KB went into. So now you're burning slots on set bonuses just to get the -KB. I think there's a better way to do this.

I'm a firm believer in everything starting out with a baseline of effectiveness and then expanding from there. I HATED the few Melee sets that didn't include -KB in them. Given the choice, I would design all IO sets with a minimum of effectiveness and then build upon them to maintain balance.

You want extra damage? Ok...you can pick from those sets over there. Three are more single-target oriented, three are more for AoE and the last three are a bit of all over the place but with Procs to keep things interesting. ALL of them will have a minimum of +Damage, +Recharge, -End and so on.However this one has a little added +Recharge, that set has a bit more damage or whatever.

Defensive sets would be the same. You wouldn't have to worry about the -KB proc costing zillions on the Market because ALL of the sets would include -KB. Granted, you could add MORE with the procs but you would never have a character that felt that they HAD to go outset their Power Sets to plug holes in their design.

The goal would be to strike a balance so that no IO set or Power Set stood out as a clear winner but ALL of them are good.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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Well, I wouldn't necessarily

Well, I wouldn't necessarily say that. To Min/Maxers yes, there were only certain sets people would take. However, for those that enjoyed a little flavor, some of the other sets were of value. I built one of my characters to have the maximum amount of speed possible without taking any kind of Travel Power. Why? Unsuppressed travel speed for PvP. I had Super Speed speed without having to worry about being suppressed while in PvP. Some people wanted to have maximum KB. Some wanted specific resistances to specific types. Etc. You can't really say that some IO's were crap and worthless. Also keep in mind the levels of some of those IOs. There were some people that only took their toon to a certain level and then left it there for PvP or some other reason. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

But one thing that always stuck in my head was that regardless of what Power Sets you had you always tended to come back around to the same few IO sets because many of them were (relatively) junk.

Well, that was unfortunately quite true. Some of the sets really made me scratch my head. And why was "reduce immobilize duration" featured so heavily as the first bonus? It's a shame they never got around to fixing the set bonuses, At least they realized their mistake. I'm ok with "weaker" choices, perhaps a more common (there for cheaper) set, and realize some sets may work better on some classifications than others. As long as it's bonuses make sense and provide something useful I'll be happy.

Quote:

For non-melee types there were only a few options to resist KB. You could leave Hover on (one of my faves), take Acrobatics (a big End cost and a power slot), or take one of the few -KB IOs. But taking those IOs prompted you to want the rest of that set at least for the power the -KB went into. So now you're burning slots on set bonuses just to get the -KB. I think there's a better way to do this.

First of all, the hover exploit was removed in the later days of the game. (you took as long to recover from the KB as someone on the ground did). Secondly I never felt prompted to take an entire set when all I wanted was the KB global. Finally, I think burning a slot or 2 to get KB protection was a good thing from a design standpoint. For the squishy archetypes KB protection was not something you were supposed to have natively. So, you either invested three power selections into leaping to get acrobatics or you fit in one of those KB globals somewhere on your character. Either way you were making a choice of "do I want to have KB protection" or "do I want to be more powerful". When you are bending the rules you don't want to make it too easy

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

Well, I wouldn't necessarily say that. To Min/Maxers yes, there were only certain sets people would take. However, for those that enjoyed a little flavor, some of the other sets were of value. I built one of my characters to have the maximum amount of speed possible without taking any kind of Travel Power. Why? Unsuppressed travel speed for PvP. I had Super Speed speed without having to worry about being suppressed while in PvP. Some people wanted to have maximum KB. Some wanted specific resistances to specific types. Etc. You can't really say that some IO's were crap and worthless. Also keep in mind the levels of some of those IOs. There were some people that only took their toon to a certain level and then left it there for PvP or some other reason. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

Those are good points, and reminded me of another use of the IO sets, frankenslotting. There were times I grabbed a worthless IO recipe because it was Dam/EndR/Rech, not for any bonus. Then again having, a bit more sanity with the bonuses wouldn't have hurt frankenslotting in the least.

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+1 to Syntaxerror37 about

+1 to Syntaxerror37 about Frakenslotting.

Look at the Kinetic Combat IO Set:
Acc/Dam
Dam/End
Dam/Rec
Dam/End/Rec
KD Bonus (20% 0.67 mag)

This gave the following Set Bonuses:
2) MezResist (Immob) 2.75%
3) +1.5% HP
4) +3.75% Def (S/L), 1.88% Def (Melee)
5) 5% Speed

Now most people who wanted S/L Def took the first four, ignoring the KD Bonus resulting in the following Values:
Acc: 22.94%
Dam: 85.45% (Pre-ED 87.16%)
End: 41.29%
Rec: 41.29%

Using this on your T9 Melee power meant the low Accuracy would mean more misses, medium End and Rec reductions means it took longer to use it again and cost more to actually use it. So then you add in a Mako's Bite A/E/R which raises the Values to:
Acc: 44.14%
End/Rec: 62.49%

Still want more Acc either use an Accuracy IO (non Set) or if you want more End or Rec as well then a Mako's Bite A/D/E/R, Focused Smite A/E/R (level 40 set) or one of the various A/D/E or A/D/R's.

Its all about Choice. Do I want to put a 'spare' Slot in my Combat Jumping power for a Kismet +Acc, or put that in my most commonly used attack for a Proc, or get another Set Bonus that isn't on my MUST HAVE List? The love and heartache of choice :)

Thank you to Mids for the above values - the amount of time I spent (not wasted) in Mids, explain to my mates who didn't play CoH... ahhh fond memories. Might look at making that Stone Tank I never got around to doing, both Granite and Non-Granite forms

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My mids builds were so tight.

My mids builds were so tight. True to concept first but still streamlined and awesome. I miss mids almost as much as CoH. It was a metagame that made you more badass in the game.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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More times than Not, i would

More times than Not, i would slot KnockOut Blow this way:

And ALLOT of the times, i found myself slotting FootStomp like this:

And, some builds only cost 1,8 to 2 billion influence.. which was almost Half the cost of Other types of builds...
Ex: Mids Designer v1.96, A build for a Stone Melee / Energy Aura brute... Click Here to Download Build Project file

quick look at totals:

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Personally I never slotted

Personally I never slotted Purples, instead Crafting/Selling them to help finance my Altitis.

But like Izzy Id often have powers with multiple Sets in the one power based on the Set Bonuses I could get and what I wanted (those MezResists were crap).
I was really looking forward to the new Def/Resistance IO Sets and the updates that added +Res to the MezResist values. SO WANT++++

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You cheaters and your mids...

You cheaters and your mids... ;)

Izzy wrote:

And, some builds only cost 1,8 to 2 billion influence.. which was almost Half the cost of Other types of builds...

That seems a little high, were you buying per-crafted IOs or the recipes?

cybermitheral wrote:

Personally I never slotted Purples, instead Crafting/Selling them to help finance my Altitis.

I did purple out my main, mostly because I could between lucky purple drops and billions of banked influence. Since I bought recipes almost exclusively I didn't craft the purples as it was a waste of rare salvage to me. I had no problem selling unneeded recipes from 90-500 mill a pop.

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You could get creative, my

You could get creative, my kat/SR used to slot the small fast starting attack with HO acc/dam, purple dam/proc and 3 more procs (it took defence debuff sets also), meant I could see a huge stream of numbers (up to 7 on a crit I believe, the attack itself generated 2).

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syntaxerror37 wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:

You cheaters and your mids... ;)
Izzy wrote:
And, some builds only cost 1,8 to 2 billion influence.. which was almost Half the cost of Other types of builds...
That seems a little high, were you buying per-crafted IOs or the recipes?

It was a mixture, After so much time crafting IO's, i get a bit lazy and buy the rest. ;D
And sometimes... you couldnt Find the IO Recipies, but you Could find the already Crafted IO's for sale.
Sooo.. i bought it. ;)

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On the occasions I was able

On the occasions I was able to team with Minotaur and his Scrappers it was always a case of "Its OK let him do his thing. Dont worry if he grabs a entire mob in the ITF to himself he'll be fine :)"

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hehe.. when the CoH dev

hehe.. when the CoH dev (Ghost Falcon) was trying out the changes they made to the Apex TF, I was on team with my tank Superon,

..and we all got a custom text on top of our names for helping him out.

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

.. Dont worry if he grabs a entire mob in the ITF to himself he'll be fine :)"

Hehe.. yea.. I used to do that also with my Corruptor in ITF's. I would run to the Next Group and defeat them before the rest of the team would finish off the last group. Hehe.. and the tank would keep saying.. "YOU CRAZY, your not a TANK.. Your Gonna DIE." And by the time they get to me, im just finish off the last boss. ;)

Ahh i miss my Fire/Kin Corruptor. Well over 50% S/L, Eng/Ranged defense. And Fulcrum Shift was SHWEEET! ;D
After a while, me and one scrapper would plow through one side in the ITF, while the rest of the team would plow though on the other side. And we were keeping up too. ;D

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

cybermitheral wrote:
.. Dont worry if he grabs a entire mob in the ITF to himself he'll be fine :)"
Hehe.. yea.. I used to do that also with my Corruptor in ITF's. I would run to the Next Group and defeat them before the rest of the team would finish off the last group. Hehe.. and the tank would keep saying.. "YOU CRAZY, your not a TANK.. Your Gonna DIE." And by the time they get to me, im just finish off the last boss. ;)
Ahh i miss my Fire/Kin Corruptor. Well over 50% S/L, Eng/Ranged defense. And Fulcrum Shift was SHWEEET! ;D
After a while, me and one scrapper would plow through one side in the ITF, while the rest of the team would plow though on the other side. And we were keeping up too. ;D

Yeah the advantage of the SR scrapper was that if a couple of the cimerorans did hit me, with capped def debuff resist it took like 15 hits at the cap before they uncapped me, for a corruptor, the second hit probably uncapped you, then you were headed for cascade failure.

I used to be the tank of choice for somebody who used to run all the shard TFs on US holiday weekends. When another tank signed up, me and his kin would go one way, the rest of the party went the other.

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Minotaur wrote:
Minotaur wrote:

Yeah the advantage of the SR scrapper was that if a couple of the cimerorans did hit me, with capped def debuff resist it took like 15 hits at the cap before they uncapped me, for a corruptor, the second hit probably uncapped you, then you were headed for cascade failure.
I used to be the tank of choice for somebody who used to run all the shard TFs on US holiday weekends. When another tank signed up, me and his kin would go one way, the rest of the party went the other.

Yep... they would get in a few hits.. at random..
but Fulcrum Shift and Siphon Power made sure it wasnt much.

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Say...does this mean there

Say...does this mean there will be something similar to slotting? That was one of the fantastic aspects of CoH, and something I liked a lot better than the usual equipment slot paper doll-based upgrading.

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I think they're planning on

I think they're planning on calling them "boosts", and I'm fairly sure the paper doll will be left at the tailor's where it belongs. ^_^

Not sure where it was that the devs said it, though.

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Gorgon wrote:
Gorgon wrote:

Say...does this mean there will be something similar to slotting? That was one of the fantastic aspects of CoH, and something I liked a lot better than the usual equipment slot paper doll-based upgrading.

I believe it has been said each power will have slots for boosts, as well as global slots that apply to the character in general.

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syntaxerror37 wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:

Gorgon wrote:
Say...does this mean there will be something similar to slotting? That was one of the fantastic aspects of CoH, and something I liked a lot better than the usual equipment slot paper doll-based upgrading.

I believe it has been said each power will have slots for boosts, as well as global slots that apply to the character in general.

I'm really hoping this works out. Sounds like a great idea.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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Glad I'm not the only one

Glad I'm not the only one still fiddling in Mids' with builds :D

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I was a complete

I was a complete frankenslotter, looking for big bonuses here and there rather than cumulative little ones from set accumulation. Whatever wasn't that was +dam/+acc minimax of IOs. Either a slot held a nice bonus or it held awesome +dam/+acc (or whatever else was needed for that char).

On my main, the mastermind in my pictures (and the only character in 14+ MMOs I ever kept topped out at the height of power) I eventually took a handful of high-priced HOs because they would boost something that you normally couldn't boost, e.g. a dam/end could go into a +dam power that didn't take +end enhancements and boost the end. You weren't supposed to do it but people did anyway.

It's the main reason I finished the game with "only" 1.7 billion instead of about 3.

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The one thing I never cared

The one thing I never cared for with the IO Sets was that they essentially were a "Play It OUR Way" sort of deal. And as mentioned, most of the sets were just garbage (especially the Mez Sets, those were just awful). So out of 100+ sets made, players really only wound up using a tiny fraction of them most of the time.

Personally, I'd rather play a game where the "building of sets" metagame simply wasn't required to paper over the deficiencies of the game's meta structure as designed. In other words, I'd prefer an a la carte approach in which players "make their own sets" out of standard components available to everyone ... mainly through use of Universal Slots that apply to every power you have.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

... I'd prefer an a la carte approach in which players "make their own sets" out of standard components available to everyone ... mainly through use of Universal Slots that apply to every power you have.

+1.
If this helps new players jump in with a lower barrier to entry, i'm all for it.

I'm just concerned for those players that treated Crafting as a 2nd game, wont have much fun anymore. :/

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My main I focused on maxing

My main I focused on maxing heath regen, and recovery. Nearly had him done. Expensive build but I was nearly unstoppable. Street justice/ willpower/ energy mastery My damage wasn't top but there were times I went afk came back to see a mob bashing my character and very little even registered.

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Anything regen use to love

Anything regen use to love teaming with me on my empathy with my io sets I had perma regen and recovery auras plus perma adrenaline boost with power boosted fortitude

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

The one thing I never cared for with the IO Sets was that they essentially were a "Play It OUR Way" sort of deal. And as mentioned, most of the sets were just garbage (especially the Mez Sets, those were just awful). So out of 100+ sets made, players really only wound up using a tiny fraction of them most of the time.
Personally, I'd rather play a game where the "building of sets" metagame simply wasn't required to paper over the deficiencies of the game's meta structure as designed. In other words, I'd prefer an a la carte approach in which players "make their own sets" out of standard components available to everyone ... mainly through use of Universal Slots that apply to every power you have.

I don't feel like I have a good enough understanding of what you're talking about here to like or dislike it. It sounds like letting players write their own rules, to some extent, which I feel is usually bad. As it was in CoX, the IO builds some people had made them head and shoulders better than anything you would have expected to get via SOs and HamiOs alone, so the IO system was plenty powerful overall, if not terribly diverse among the good options, in the final analysis. I feel like letting people come up with their own levels of set bonuses is giving away the store, or would have been in CoX, given that they didn't raise the difficulty of the mobs when they rolled IOs out.

To look at a set and say "I like the good things about this set but I wish I didn't have to accept the bad things." is an understandable reaction, and some of the low level sets were plain garbage and everyone knew it, but letting people cherry pick the enhancement types and the set bonuses, even if it's off of a pre-approved list to ensure power balance, seems like swinging the pendulum too far the other way. I like the metagame of having to make the best thing you can out of a huge pile of options, not all of which are ideal, and being required to live with some less-than-desirable elements of your build. At the end of the build, you should always be left wanting more, I feel.

On an admittedly academic note, I will continue to defend the practice of having "bad" enhancement sets (and "bad" powers for that matter) in the game in the first place. Even if you think all they are is a "trap" to sucker people into using them, that in and of itself is not, I feel, a reason to eliminate them. Don't get me wrong, it would be nice if we had A FEW more good options to choose from, at least in some cases, but I personally still like having the lesser options there anyway. For one thing, it affects the odds of getting a "good" recipe in a random drop, for another it gives the devs space to grow into when they roll out new sets in later updates. Also, with the Rule of Fives in place, all anyone was going to do in many cases was use whatever was the best option for them in as many places as possible. If there are more good sets, you might need to make it the Rule of Twos or something. Not that I would be against that though.

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I don't recognise your

I don't recognise your description, I used many of the mez sets, most of the highish level ones and some of the lower ones had their uses depending on which bonuses I wanted. The less useful higher level ones were good for a cheap frankenslot on toons I didn't want to deck out, plus with enhancement converters, there was no such thing as complete garbage.

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My biggest problem with IO

My biggest problem with IO Sets (and bonuses) was that, if I wanted the Set Bonus, then I had to take the fixed enhancement levels inherent in the set. Many IO sets did not feature the Enhancement levels that I wanted. They would be weak in Accuracy, or Endurance, or Recharge, and ED Overloaded for Damage. Astonishingly, many of the 'Mez' sets were comparatively low on Mez Enhancement.

What I want to be able to do, is set my Enhancement levels to the proportions I desire and let Set Bonuses (if there are any) ride on top of that. I don't want to be forced to take '5-slots from the set, plus an Accuracy SO' in order to get decent performance. I don't want to have to slot 'one from each of the sets and ignore bonuses' in order to get the Enhancement levels I consider appropriate.

I believe that was Redlynne's meaning, as well.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

... On an admittedly academic note, I will continue to defend the practice of having "bad" enhancement sets (and "bad" powers for that matter) in the game in the first place. Even if you think all they are is a "trap" to sucker people into using them, that in and of itself is not, I feel, a reason to eliminate them. Don't get me wrong, it would be nice if we had A FEW more good options to choose from, at least in some cases, but I personally still like having the lesser options there anyway. ...

Hehe... I remember feeling TRAPPED on my Dual Blades Scrapper, when trying to get all the Combos that the power-set provided. I felt like I HAD to take just about EVERY power from the Dual Blades power-set. It was a Double Edged Sword (pun intended*).. since I also tried to get the other needed powers from the Power pools, but couldnt barely even get the Essentials. :/

Im not saying Dual Blades wasnt very fun... but a few more of the powers should have been Left Out of the Comboing system.. so i could SKIP 'EM if i chose to! ;)

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I think it's erroneous to

I think it's erroneous to assume that just because sets exist that the full set version of the rarest set that a given power could have must always be the best option available for every power for every player's build in all cases. I think the better system (which CoH had, IMO) would be one where some powers want a full set, some want frankenslotting, some want parts of a set or sets and one or more generic IOs, some only need one slot and thus take either a Proc or a Generic IO or a set piece that buffs two aspects of the power, etc and where "which powers want which IOs" is different based on your build options like masteries, secondary set choice, other powers you took, etc.. This creates diversity among the various slotting options and forces you to figure out what might be best for you in specifics, on a case by case basis.

As they've been described to me so far, I think the kind of "make your own sets/set bonuses" ideas floating around still sound like letting the lunatics take over the asylum or maybe letting the customers manage the store, if you prefer that analogy. The whole point of the IO sets being the way they were in CoX was that there weren't any perfect sets, so you had to pick and choose carefully, and in many cases that meant either frankenslotting or resorting to using some generic IOs or whatever in a few places. I don't think that was a failure of the IO system, it was a FEATURE that it had, which I personally think made it better.

The alternative sounds like either A) letting people have whatever they want (like putting the piece of cheese at the end of the room and telling the mouse to make his own maze then run it and get the cheese) or B) handing them a single set for each power that has exactly what you'd want and saying "Here, you just use this, trust us, you don't have to optimize anything, we've already done that and this is the right answer. You're welcome." which is like just handing them the cheese without even pretending there's a maze at all.

And to Izzy's point, some builds are going to be more "narrow" in the sense that you tend to find the optimum configuration quickly, and others maybe more "broad" in the sense that you really have a lot of very close options and can play around a bit more with different things. This too is a good thing, I think.

For the specific question of the Mez sets, maybe the full 6-of mez set wasn't the best option for a lot of builds. So what? There were other options, like using a generic IO or two, or a HamiO, or parts of different sets, etc. The fact that the best option was not the first thing you'd think of was part of the game of building the toon, I feel. Frankenslotting was something people did A LOT of in many cases, and that's all this is, really. In some cases you didn't want to put all 6 slots in a power in the first place because of this, and then there were powers people took JUST to get set bonuses (IO "mule" powers).

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+1 Radiac.

+1 Radiac.
Let me decide if I want to 6-slot a power for that full Set Bonus, or only slot 4 and Frankenslot the rest for Enh Bonuses.
Or a Mule Set. Or only Frankenslot. Or.... whatever.

Build options and the pro's/con's of my decisions makes it all the more interesting, even the Rule of 5 limitation made it fun.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

As they've been described to me so far, I think the kind of "make your own sets/set bonuses" ideas floating around still sound like letting the lunatics take over the asylum or maybe letting the customers manage the store, if you prefer that analogy. The whole point of the IO sets being the way they were in CoX was that there weren't any perfect sets, so you had to pick and choose carefully, and in many cases that meant either frankenslotting or resorting to using some generic IOs or whatever in a few places. I don't think that was a failure of the IO system, it was a FEATURE that it had, which I personally think made it better.

There is sense in this.

However, my preferred scenario is that there not be 'Set Bonuses' or even Sets. I like Redlynne's proposed Global/Universal slots framework.

If there Are Sets, then I'd want to be able to construct an 'Accuracy' enhancement for a given set, using materials given by a recipe. Then I'd want to be able to construct another 'Accuracy' from the same set, using materials and the same recipe. Slot them both in the same Power and gain the 2-slot Set Bonus for that Set. IF there are multi-aspect enhancements, for instance Acc/Damage, then I'd want to be able to construct, craft, or Buy as many as I like and slot them together for whatever Bonus accrues.

What I'm saying is that I'm not interested in dictating the Set Bonus, but I DO want to control the amount and kind of enhancement I use in my powers. I want the aspects of a power that I enhance to be decoupled from the Set. I don't want to be unable to slot the last enhancement in the Set and collect the full Set Bonus because that One enhancement is ultra-super-rare. Let me collect the materials and Craft that sucker on demand.

Be Well!
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I liked the IOs the way they

I liked the IOs the way they were in CoX. Granted some of the sets weren't as good as others, but that to me was part of the fun, and it allowed for them to make better sets later as time rolls on. If you roll out the best possible sets on day one, then you have nowhere to go but down from there. Also, I will point out that the CoX system was overly complex because it had the old SO/DO/TO system in place first which was a legacy that couldn't be removed. If there were IOs from the start, then no need for SO/DO/TO and you just use the generic IOs in places where SO/DO/TOs would have been used before. Maybe don;t even have recipes and salvage for generic IOs? I don't know.

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The only problem I had with

The only problem I had with the IO Sets from COH was when you slotted a full set (sometimes not even the full set) that you would often go WAY over ED for one or more of the enhancement values.
Lets take the Melee PBAoE Set Obliteration:
Damage
Acc/Rec
Dam/Rec
Acc/Dam/Rec
Acc/Dam/End/Rec
Proc

Even with the 6th IO being a Proc with no Enhancement buffs using the full set at level 50 gives you:
Acc: 66.25%
Dam: 96.3% (Pre-ED: 108.65%
End: 18.55%
Rec: 89.93% (Pre-ED: 92.75%)

So if I really wanted that 6th Slot Bonus (+ Melee Def) then Id be wasting a lot of Dam and some Rec enh. I get that the HUGE Damage offsets the poor EndRed, but wouldn't it be better if instead of having such a huge disparity between values there is less, but still some. I can then make a decision to get the Enh Set bonuses based on the bonuses primarily, without worrying that my PBAoE power, which generally has a high End Cost, is slotted with only a 18.55% End Reduction.

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

Lets take the Melee PBAoE Set Obliteration:
...using the full set at level 50 gives you:
Acc: 66.25%
Dam: 96.3% (Pre-ED: 108.65%
End: 18.55%
Rec: 89.93% (Pre-ED: 92.75%)

Right, so here's a relatively decent IO Set, but I'd be suicidal to put it in my PBAoE Aura power, since a toggle has little use for Recharge and desperately needs good Endurance. So this IO is good for a tiny niche situation. In my mind, that's bad design.

There should be a way to swap Endurance for Recharge in this Set,

Be Well!
Fireheart

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in mass pvp battles i would

in mass pvp battles i would drop into the middle, and do a aoe fear. my side won soon after. you could net some serious holds if you really tried. and they were SO cheap!

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Here's an idea:

Here's an idea:

Sets have various enhancement types (e.g. Accuracy, Accuracy/Damage, Damage/Recharge, etc.)
Sets have various maximum bonuses/values (e.g. Accuracy 80%, Damage 80%, Recharge 60%, etc.)*

Players can combine any enhancement type they like but these cannot push the numbers past the set's inherent maximum values. Anything above that value is lost, much as with ED.

Thoughts?



* Perhaps set bonuses can boost these values past the basic set maximum?

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Having just started in

Having just started in Wildstars rune system, it is quite interesting... and I can see how they can add to is.

Basically your gear (armour) does not inherantly provide a set bonus for having X of Y items slotted.

Instead, it is your runes that you slot that provide the bonus. So whilst a nice purple drop might have quite a few rune slots in it, they could have entirely the wrong rune types needed to get the set bonus.

Basically they split the runes into 6 categories... Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Fusion, Life, Logic. Each category can have several different types of runes, and generally speaking a "type" of rune will fit into one of the categories. But there will be some that can fit into 2 or 3 different types.

And whilst replacing the rune is a destructive replacement, just like replacing enhancements in CoX were (unless you paid for unslotters or used a respec), you can buy the components on the market, or get them from salvaging items (breaking down into components).

So it goes like this:

Armour/Weapons/Gadgets/Implants/Shields etc: Provide basic stat increases. Some suffer from Diminishing returns, others don't. Not too hot on the number mechanics as I am just dabbling.

Runes: Provide extra bonuses, either via a basic stat increase, or an additional effect that can kick in when you have X number of Y "set runes" slotted. Set runes themselves also give a slight stat increase as well.

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

So if I really wanted that 6th Slot Bonus (+ Melee Def) then Id be wasting a lot of Dam and some Rec enh.

PRECISELY. You had to give up something to get something. You had to weigh the benefits of the thing you gained against the value of the stuff you had to give up to get it. If you preferred to have better Endo Cost ehnancement, then you had to learn to live without that def bonus and go with 5 of that set and a generic IO, or an SO, or a HamiO. Just because full sets existed as a possibility, that didn't make them the best overall option for everyone in every case. There was a lot of frankenslotting for this reason. And it's true that some powers were the pariahs of the IO system, they had no really efficient sets to slot into them. This too was part of the game, you just put generic IOs in them and said "ok, done" or you got a 2-of bonus and left it at that, or whatever.

The fact that it left you wanting more was, I feel, a good thing. It made the character build part of the game interesting and challenging. It gave you a reason to spend lots of time on MIDS playing with options and posting on forums asking for advice from other people who had done the same.

If your request of the CoT developers here is "Don't do this, give us sets that let us have our cake and eat it too." then my immediate response is "I want the opposite of that. Force us to decide very carefully when to eat our cake."

I understand how frustrating this was at times, but you have to remember that all the other people were wrestling with this same stuff too. It wasn't like they just did this to YOU and everyone else had better options. All anyone could do was the best we could do within the system we were in. In many cases that didn't feel like the best thing possible, because you could look at it and say "Well, if they had just designed it like THIS I would be in better shape here...." but what was best within that system was still best within that system, and I trust that the CoX developers made it that way on purpose. After all, you can't make the powers and builds too powerful.

Consider two people who wake up and drive to work along the same road every morning:
Guy 1 wakes up and get's on the road 5 minutes earlier than guy 2. Guy 1 has to stop and wait at three red lights before getting to the office. Guy 2 starts out on the road 5 minutes later than Guy 1 and goes along the same road, but by the time he gets to each traffic light, they're green by then. So Guy 2 doesn't have to stop at any red lights, but still gets to work 5 min after guy 1 got there. From Guy 1's perspective, his drive to work was frustrating because he had to stop at red lights. From guy 2's perspective, the drive to work was pleasant because he got to just cruise through green lights. But guy 1 still got to work as fast as possible, within the law, and guy 2 actually got to work SLOWER than he could have, because what he should have done was speed up until the point where he would have hit one or more of the lights while there were still red (before they turned green).

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I think that the CoX IO

I think that the CoX IO system was an extremely good one, for much the same reasoning as Radiac has already stated.

From a slightly different perspective, think of the amount of time you spent tweaking your build. No matter if it was going to the forums, speaking with friends in game or just asking some impressive char from a random ITF, it added lots of game focus which I considered to be gameplay. It was this kind of thing that kept me playing CoX long after I would have stopped playing other games.

Now the developers were tweaking the system and adding some interesting new facets to the IO system (like added resistances) and those kinds of things would be interesting, but if there was a substantial change then it seems to me that it would have bent the system too much.

The give and take aspect was what allowed for players to create interesting and different characters. It was easy to see how players looked to min/max (cookie cutter) power sets as it was.

It just seems to me that some of the other proposals I've seen here would create a simpler model and that is not something I want to see for CoT. I'm all for the concept of giving more options for the player base, but the team needs to be sure that giving those extra options won't lead to fewer options actually being played.

And for whatever it may be worth, I had a char that used the Armageddon on a PBAoE aura (low end discount). I just had to cut the end cost in other areas and utilize an end regain. Some sets could deal with the trade off (Bio, Dark, Elec, anything paired with Dark Melee).

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Well, Obviously, in order to

Well, Obviously, in order to slot the full set, one has to give up slotting some other power.

My complaint is that the resulting Enhancements are savagely crippled in one aspect. The only place to use Obliteration is in a Nova - which is useless to players that don't have a power like that. Worse, the Devs failed to supply a similar Set suitable for other applications. So, this is a Niche Set - a result of faulty design.

I'm expecting MWM to avoid this error in CoT.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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I never got to put IO Sets into this build, but I think this is how it would look.

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I completely agree with

I completely agree with Radiac that working out your build design should have consequences and pros/cons to my decisions and that often I will have to make a CHOICE of wanting X over Y but loosing Z in the process.
My concern was the amount of WASTED Enh values with a full set. Why provide 108% Dam Enh when the ED cap is 70%. Id rather Oblit to have offered say 80-85% Dam and 25-30% EndRed for the FULL set, by changing the Dam to a Dam/End. This would still make the set a 'High Damage/Low End' set but without having so much waste - any Enh value over 100% suffered a 85% reduction for the numbers over 100% (http://cityofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Enhancement_Diversification).

Izzy can you copy in the Mids Code for that build. I have concerns about your End Use/End Recovery with only 2 generic IO's in Stam but running Tactics/Assault/Maneuvers/Tough/Weave/Scorpion Shield.
Also putting the Numi Proc in Triage is not the best use as the Proc will only activate when the power is used - approx. 1/60-70 secs in Triage when Hasten is up. If you put it in Health it ticks every few secs. By doing so you'd loose the +3.75 Ranged Def, but as you are already at 48.3% Ranged Def you can afford it (or 59.5% Ranged Def with the 'Hail Of Bullets' buff) :)

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Izzy's MIDS post makes me

Izzy's MIDS post makes me nostalgic for the good old days when we actually had a superhero game to play and use MIDS for. Now I'm a little verklempt.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Well, Obviously, in order to slot the full set, one has to give up slotting some other power.
My complaint is that the resulting Enhancements are savagely crippled in one aspect. The only place to use Obliteration is in a Nova - which is useless to players that don't have a power like that. Worse, the Devs failed to supply a similar Set suitable for other applications. So, this is a Niche Set - a result of faulty design.
I'm expecting MWM to avoid this error in CoT.
Be Well!
Fireheart

A lot of min/maxers I knew thought of the Nova powers as "bad" before IOs came out though. This was one way to make them somewhat more attractive, maybe? Also, 5-slotting Oblit in a power left you the 6th slot for another Proc.

Also, we keep returning to the assumption that the 6-of set slotting is supposed to always be a good option. It wasn't always a good option, and I'm in favor of that. It gave people reasons to frankenslot and not just blindly 6-slot everything with whatever set was good for that power. If they had made all of the full sets a good solid option in all of the powers they could be put into, that would be boring and nobody would have to think about their slotting. The only problem you'd have then is figuring out which powers to not six-slot because of not having enough slots. And then we'd all be here arguing about how there weren't enough slots to go around.

It's natural to want things to be better than they are right now. But min/maxing can only ever be done with what you have in front of you. Designing the game to be more easily min/maxxed and to be maxxed to a greater max than CoX had is not a request I personally would want to entertain as a developer, if I were one. The people you're trying to appease are never satisfied. I'd rather go in knowing that some stuff was made inefficient on purpose and have to work around that in various ways.

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

Izzy can you copy in the Mids Code for that build. I have concerns about your End Use/End Recovery with only 2 generic IO's in Stam but running Tactics/Assault/Maneuvers/Tough/Weave/Scorpion Shield. ...

Link Here :)

....

But this Build will have you mind Boggled as far as Endurance recovery is concerned. ;D

Link Here

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*Boggle*

*Boggle*

Good thing you can cycle Dark Consumption and Consume about once every 22sec. Makes my Ice/Sonic Controller look positively efficient :p

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Personally all my builds had

Personally all my builds had at least a 2x EndRec over EndUse - If I couldn't get that I didn't use the build, unless I had a End Recovery tool that wasn't on a long timer.

Also your Brute has 1 too many +5% RechargeTime Set Bonuses [Mids > Window > Sets & Bonuses = look for red text].

Man like Radiac Im missing making Mids Builds for my mates and me... :(

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

Also your Brute has 1 too many +5% RechargeTime Set Bonuses [Mids > Window > Sets & Bonuses = look for red text].

Ohhh, i wonder why i did that. Maybe i couldnt pass up the Melee Defense from the Oblit's? :(

This build was very challenging. I'm still not 100% happy with it. :/
Why do i have soo much trouble trying to get this Build to have enough S/L and Eng/Neg Defense.
I would have preferred if i could get defense for Melee and Ranged close to 50% though.

I'm not too worried about Fire or AoE since Resistance is pretty high already to Fire..
..and most foe AoE is suppose to have a fire component. Well... so i like to tell myself. ;)

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There were a couple of useful

There were a couple of useful things about a full set going way over the ED cap on damage. It meant that:

a) You could slot them at much lower than max level if you wanted to exemp and keep the set bonus.
b) You could slot less than a full set if you didn't need the 6 slot bonus.

I used obliteration a fair amount despite its failings, and eradication slotting 2/3/4/6 depending on the exact build.

I often wondered whether ED was really needed after IOs, you could either go way over the caps by frankenslotting, or you could go for set bonuses, the tradeoff could have been managed with the right bonuses on the IOs themselves.

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Without ED I think some

Without ED I think some people would still be like Damage IO + Damage IO + Damage IO + Damage IO + Damage IO + Damage IO = "I'M SO GOOD AT THIS GAME!"

I think the Diminishing Returns on enhancers and the Rule of 5 were really good.

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Personally I loved

Personally I loved Obliteration ... +Acc at 4 slots, +recharge at 5 and the +def(melee) at 6. What's not to like ... what do you mean the endred, it doesn't have any! :p. So yes not very helpful in the endred department but I'd just look to make it up elsewhere somehow. I'd look at my net recovery and what sort of +recovery and +end powers the character could muster more than an individual power (and try not to worry over much about Oblits measly 18% endred in a single power).

And I'd sometimes use the less desired sets to frankkenslot things while leveling ... not just at 50

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I'm not understanding why you

I'm not understanding why you didn't want to put Combat Jumping in that DM/FA Brute. You have no Immob resistance without it. I also would have slotted to cap S/L Def and added enough KB Res as well. There are definite improvements to be made to that build.

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

I'm not understanding why you didn't want to put Combat Jumping in that DM/FA Brute. You have no Immob resistance without it. I also would have slotted to cap S/L Def and added enough KB Res as well. There are definite improvements to be made to that build.

Burn has some Immobilize protection, and Tough has a Steadfast Knockback Protection Mag -4. I felt this was enough for majority of the missions. :)

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On a more general note, I

On a more general note, I would like to point out that adding more good sets is not the same thign as getting rid of the bad sets. You can have both. But if you add more good sets, you tun into problems with people using 5 copies of the one good set AND multiple copies of the other, etc. If you have enough DIFFERENT good set options, you might need to make it the Rule of 1-2 instead of the Rule of 5.

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Keep in mind (though I'm

Keep in mind (though I'm guessing we all know this) while if you have 5 of the same sets you are up against the Rule of 5 that it doesn't require 5 of the same sets to do so. The rule of 5 applies to the bonus not the set. If I get bonuses for +5% recharge from 6 different sets then CoX is still going to ignore that 6th 5% bonus (assuming it has the same name all six times ... ie unlike, for example, LotG +7.5% recharge vs the Gaze of the Basilisk +7.5% for 4 slots which had different names for that numeric bonus).

One off thought I had more pertinent to the thread perhaps is rather than having the sets comprised of only 6 (or less) different combo's of attributes perhaps extend it to 7 or 8 (or whatever) different combos of attributes. Then if your Oblit set also had, for example, an dam/endred and an endred/rech in addition to the 6 it actually had one would have more choice in exactly how to enhance the power it was going into. You would still be limited to a max of 6 slots and the set bonuses associated with those slots. Of course that defeats what I suspect was a design/developer goal to force choices between sets (i.e do I use Multistrike for better endred or go with Obliterate and gain better rech on top of the choice of which set bonuses I want)

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Depending on how much

Depending on how much "crosstalk" there is between different powers and IO sets, this could be good. It makes the sets more configurable. I think you'd have to be careful not to overdo it, but I like it.

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Here's a crazy idea: instead

Here's a crazy idea: instead of SET bonuses, TYPE bonuses.

A melee damage crafted type bonus would apply if any melee damage sets were slotted, more universally applicable bonuses in the 5th and 6th slots.
Debuff type bonuses would be similarly universal between the different sets, with the sets varying only in how their boosts are distributed in value.

Naturally these bonuses would be of smaller value than set bonuses due to being easier to obtain 'ideal' values by frankenslotting.

Alternatively, assign a single type bonus and have that replace any and all (2) bonuses so that anyone with any two Ranged Damage pieces in a power gets at least a tiny synergy bonus from the related boost effects.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Without ED I think some people would still be like Damage IO + Damage IO + Damage IO + Damage IO + Damage IO + Damage IO = "I'M SO GOOD AT THIS GAME!"
I think the Diminishing Returns on enhancers and the Rule of 5 were really good.

I came in right around Issue 10 so I missed ED by a bit. However after hearing about it I was wondering what the Devs were things when they conjured up the original system. If you make one build type WAY more efficient than any other then of course most players will head that way

Then again I was puzzled at the idea of Tanking a whole map/zone too so go figure.

You HAVE to think outside the box because the players sure will

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

Godling
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Joined: 11/02/2013 - 13:28
Actually ED did help me make

Actually ED did help me make my character more efficient. I would slot 1 accuracy for my controllers and 5 Mez durations. With Ed I slotted 1 accuracy 2 recharges and 3 durations.

(1 2/3 * 2) = 3 1/3 vs 2 2/3 for the effectiveness of my controller and I came with more damage per second. Fighting a solo boss before that gave time to make and eat a sandwich while I slowly took the boss down with my controller.

Back then melee and ranged characters would have 3 attacks. 1 super accurate 1 super quick and 1 high damage
and they were good to go for almost every situation.