Join the ongoing conversation on Discord: https://discord.gg/w6Tpkp2
Please read the current update for instructions on downloading the latest update. Players with Mac versions of the game will not be affected, but you will have a slightly longer wait for your version of the new maps. Please make a copy of your character folder before running the new update, just to make sure you don't lose any of your custom work.
It looks like we can give everyone a list of minimum specs for running City of Titans. Please keep in mind that this is 'for now' until we are able to add more graphics and other system refinements. Currently you will need :
Windows 10 or later required; no Intel integrated graphics like UHD, must have AMD or NVIDIA card or discrete chipset with 4Gb or more of VRAM
At least 16GB of main DRAM.
These stats may change as we continue to test.
To purchase your copy of the City of Titans Launcher, visit our store at https://store.missingworldsmedia.com/ A purchase of $50 or more will give you a link to download the Launcher for Windows or Mac based machines.
The biggest issue with integrated VoIP is people who do not wish to use voice chat. I know the obvious answer is "just don't use it," but it's more than that. When all they have to do is just click a button to activate voice chat in the game client there can be a lot of peer pressure/exclusion by those who do use it.
-----------------------------------------
I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
It has certainly helped the bonding experience in our guild. Before I used voice chat, I was mainly a solo player. Now many of us log on just to talk to each other in voice. And group voice chat helps tremendously in missions.
BUT it's also easily available from 3rd parties. Would voice chat be nice? Sure. But in my opinion and others it shouldn't take ANY dev time until the game is actually working. Feature creep can still endanger this game.
And when there isn't VoIP then you get asked.....a lot .....to install TS or some other third party program.
I just can't agree with the idea of leaving out an almost industry standard feature because people will want the team to use it. That's what happens in a social situation, you will be faced with choices as to what you want to do and what others want you to do. Its no different than joining a team that wants to rush through content when you want to take your time.... you either go along or move on.
I agree that many features would fall in line with the idea of feature creep but I don't think this is one. As I said...its almost an industry standard to include some sort of VoIP in a multiplayer game now. So much so that you actually notice its absence when its not included.
I really do think this should be included ....and I am almost sure that I read CoT was going to have it... but cannot for the life of me remember where.
I'm of the opinion that MWM should not devote resources to re-inventing the wheel. I would prefer to just let the 3rd party developers handle the VOIP and let MWM concentrate on animation, powers, etc at least for now.
I'd rather let them out-source stuff like this in an effort to make the game more fun in other ways.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Agreed. There are far bigger fish to fry to get this game in a condition to play. VOIP is definitely in the "nice to have" pile - but not a necessity.
As I understand it unreal 4 has VoIP in it already. There wont be any 're-inventing the wheel' involved. This should not be as involved as you are making out to be. Heck if I remember right even the codecs are there and free.
And that IS cool, but I still say get the basic game done 1st. After all bugs can happen even in a positive environment like that and bugs take dev time to resolve. Not ruling it out forever, but not sold on the need either.
While the engine does have the capability, it isn't "set up" automatically. Because different games have different needs and as such a dev would have to set up the voice capture system for the type of game they are making. Another question that would need to be answered is depending on the type of game, how will players use voice capture, what will their needs be, and can you continue to support / add more functionality over time? The. There are the system resources devoted to running the voice capture along with everythjng else a dev team plans on having to handle.
Just because the engine is capable does not mean we will use the feature. Just because we don't use a feature does not mean we never will either.
But just to give a piece of perspective; we've been using our text chat client that we plan to use for the game for quite some time now. Anytime actual voice communication becomes an absolute necessity we use a third party voip or the good ol' phone.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I have to agree with the majority here thus far. I say take a pass at integrated VOIP at launch, put in later if there is a big outcry from the masses for it. otherwise, there are plenty of reliable 3rd party programs out there that handle it just fine and have a host of features already built into their systems.
I personally am not big on voip, while I have TS I almost never actually used it except on a few occasions in most of the mmo's I have been apart of. just didn't see the need. most of the guilds/groups I was apart of were of the casual nature and such things, while nice, were never a requirement. I actually avoided guilds where it was a requirement and will probably continue to do so in the future.
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
YAY for VIBER groups. :D
I knew it was not set up automatically, but the fact it is in the engine makes it miles ahead of having to code one from scratch or purchase one from another party. The point I was making was that it is not re-inventing the wheel or a monumental undertaking. I do understand that any game with VoIP does require more resources from the developers in regards to servers. I personally think the gain is worth it.
I know you wont use every feature of the engine. I was simply pointing out that I think this feature is one you should use. I can see I am in the minority and reading between the lines it looks like this is not on the development schedule. I am surprised that with all the QoL requests in regards to teams and supergroups that this is met with disinterest. I would have thought that the ease of communication would be up there too. Judging by the lack of interest I have my doubts that it will be included even after launch.
Hard to find perspective in this. One would assume that everyone you need to talk to either already has access to the 3rd party voip or its rare when someone does not already have the access so there isn't the Trial PUG situation where you all fumble around getting everyone on the same TS only to find half don't have it installed, and the other half don't have TS they have Vent. It's almost like you have exactly what I want in the game....a universal VoIP that everyone involved has access to immediately.
But like I said...I seem to be in the minority on this so I guess that's that. (guess I was wrong it wasn't this game I read was going to include VoIP)
The thing is, it's easy to turn down an offer to jump on some random PUGer's Ventrillo server. It is not so easy to do the same when it is integrated into the client. For the record, I like using voice in online games. A few years ago I was on the integrated VoIP train for online games, until I read some comments online from those actively opposed to it. I really think the social ramifications are a much bigger issue than implementing the feature from a technical standpoint.
-----------------------------------------
I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
When you dismiss all of the downsides (out of hand?) it's very easy to see nothing but upsides to a particular decision. Or to put it another way, it's really easy to "volunteer" other people to do work that you aren't going to have to do yourself. After all ... for you ... it's all gain and no pain, so of course the gain is "worth it" to you.
Mind you, islandtrevor72, I'm not saying this as a slam on YOU and your opinion in this specific instance. Instead, I'm highlighting the circumstances that surround the assertion you've made (which could have been made by anyone, really, you just happened to be the one making it). All I'M saying, really, is the age old maxim of "there's no free lunch" which applies just as much to game development tools and resources as it does to everything else also applies here.
In this case, the difference in value judgement really comes down to being either Nice To Have or the much more imperative Must Have To Survive. I think that we can all agree that integrated VoIP inside the game falls rather squarely into the former and almost at all not into the latter. As such, it ought to be relegated into a place that puts the feature way down on the priorities list, because it's little more than a Quality of Life feature that no everyone will use (or even want to have available to use, see above comments on social dynamics ramifications of implementation).
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I have got to express my absolute ire at this.
This is a section for offering suggestions to the devs.... I have stated my position and offered actual arguments as to why I have that position. I have explained how I understand the cost (in the part you quoted no less) yet your reply is that I am volunteering them for something and that I am so selfish that all I see is my gain so its worth it to me.
You go on to say that you are not slamming me but want to point out the EXTREMLY obvious fact that 'there's no free lunch'. Its as if you assumed that I do not understand the most basic of game design (or life for that matter).
Just to restate my point which was a counter point to Radiac and his 'reinventing the wheel' comment. Unreal has VoIP in it and the codecs are free. The VoIP code does not have to be written or purchased. It does need to properly applied but that is a far cry from 'reinventing the wheel'. Furthermore its inclusion does require more resources in terms of servers etc. I think that the time and cost is worth its inclusion.
Now please tell me how you can see the hypocrisy of saying my opinion on the inclusion of this feature is both selfish and that I am volunteering the devs when you yourself have offered suggestions.
I hope you are going to clarify what you meant as right now despite the disclaimer its very insulting and seemingly ignores much of what I have said prior to it...including how I conceded that my opinion was in the minority.
So far the only social ramification you have made reference to is one of peer pressure and exclusion. If there are other please speak up.
In regards to the peer pressure and exclusion. I will need further details on how this is a big issue that the devs should be concerned with. In my experience those that demand voice communication is very rare. Even this thread supports that.
In addition to the issues already mentioned, I'd say two more reasons to avoid using integrated voice would be:
1) Using an off the shelf product allows players to use the product they want, rather than roping us into one chosen by the devs.
2) A non-integrated application allows for freer evolution, in that it's not tied into the game engine and is therefore not subject to any inherent restrictions in the game itself.
Spurn all ye kindle.
You'd still need to do the integration into the game's UI and permissions to access hardware (for microphone pickup, if nothing else) and so on and so forth. Even if those tasks are comparatively "trivial" in nature to do, the effort of doing them is not zero. And just as clearly, your opinion is that the "cost" involved in making that effort is well worth the "return on investment" that effort will produce.
Fair enough. That's your opinion, and you're sticking to it. Good luck with that.
You say selfish. I say ... incomplete. Your analysis contained all of the upsides while minimizing all of the downsides. Your opinion mandates an agenda (ie. argue to implement the feature) and it is fairly common practice for people to highlight the advantages while downplaying any disadvantages. I've done it myself on occasion when trying to "win" an argument.
All I'm saying is that an analysis of the cost versus rewards needs to look at both sides of the ledger. And as you yourself say, the "market" for this particular service is actually going to be relatively small compared to the size of the entire playerbase, and amounts to a Quality of Life feature that at best rates as a convenience rather than a necessity (simply because so few Players would need to use the feature in order to play the game). Even then, a significant chunk of the Players who would make use of such a feature would prefer to use 3rd party software that they themselves can control and authorize (Teamspeak, Vent, etc.) rather than doing so using software built into the game itself (which MWM would then be liable for in a variety of senses). By this point, we've not only achieved diminishing returns but also duplication of effort ... even if that effort is deemed "small" in terms of man-hours required to implement the feature (and maintain it!).
To be fair ... it's not a [b]Bad Idea™[/b] to do this. However, there may be other uses to which the resources this feature request (and that's what it is, a feature request) would require to implement could be better allocated towards. What would those needs be? I haven't the foggiest notion, since I don't get to look at the whiteboards, but I would assume that MWM have got their plates "full" at this point and that "maintaining" their schedule of accomplishments is going to be pretty high on their To Do list. Adding to that already existing workload is a non-trivial "ask" ... even if the work being asked for is fairly "trivial" in and of itself.
Which is a longwinded way of saying VoIP integration into City of Titans makes for an okay Stretch Goal if the right person for the job has nothing better to do for a little while, but I doubt it ranks as a Primary or even a Secondary or even a Tertiary Goal to achieve in time for game launch. Tyranny of the Almighty Schedule and all that.
So ... yeah.
Feature Request
And as this thread has demonstrated, and you've already admitted, it's not a make or break Feature Request, so its priority falls way down on the stack (or at least, I'd expect it to).
You gave your opinion and now I've given mine. Now everyone else (including Developers in charge of Scheduling stuff to happen) can weigh for themselves the merits and flaws of each position. The two of us are merely "biased" in our stances, but then, everyone already knows that and can judge accordingly.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
So I'm not selfish I'm manipulative?
I guess not agreeing with a cost for value guess (and that all we are doing here...guessing on its value) is now minimizing downsides.
I am not privy to the devs code or actual resources so can only go by the facts that are available to me. Unreal 4 has VoIP available and the codecs are free. The actual code to include VoIP is not extensive but it is also not drag and drop. We are not talking months of devoted labour here mind you (unless of course the design of CoT has a conflict with VoIP ...again not privy to that info). Heck if they want I will spend my time to do it....sadly I do not have the time to do it until march of next year.
And what magic ball do you have that invalidates my assessment of that ledger? The assumption that I am just seeing my upside again.
And no I did not say the market is relatively small. I said my opinion was in the minority. And just to clarify I obviously meant the opinion in the thread. I have stated from the get go that I believe VoIP is pretty much an industry standard and that its absence is noticeable when not included.
I have no idea where you pulled this from. Before I can even discuss it I would need to know where you got this idea.
So basically you think so low of VoIP that some mystery part of development must get all the resources. I can just see it now..
. 'Jim I was thinking of including VoIP for release'
'Sorry boss....no can do....we are fully invested in that poo flinging monkey statue' (actually that sounds kinda cool)
I mean c'mon... you can't just invent things to use as an argument (and worse it can't be undefined) if you want me to take it seriously.
Tannim has already implied that its not currently on the agenda (and now that I reread his post I think he asked specific questions that I have only now noticed).
Getting this feature in the game is not at all why I am discussing it with you. I am hoping that you can break from the habit of assuming that others are less informed than you.
Very few features the Devs are going to include would be considered 'make or break'. Using that metric the game would be very basic indeed.
The priority of it falls way down the stack to you. To me its equal in its value as some of the other QoL features the devs have stated they are working on.
And there you go ... straight from the crowbar's, er ... Key To The City™.
It's not already on the agenda.
I'm not the one you need to "convince" of anything, since I control absolutely nothing about the agenda of development. I just happen to have a pretty good idea of how things "have to work" if they're going to work at all, and that's what I've been telling you up until now. It's just the way things get done, like it or not. You don't like what I've been telling you (or the WAY I've been telling you, or whatever) ... fair enough. Still doesn't change what IS on the agenda to get done and what IS NOT.
I've been telling you that what you want is unlikely to be put on the agenda. You don't believe me. Is there anything more that can (or should) be said? Not really ... because neither of us is in a position to do anything about the agenda.
If you want to lobby someone to change the agenda to add this feature, you need to be talking to someone who can do that ... not me ... and that's a simple fact. Your turn.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Yup....anyone can look like they know 'how things work' when they change their initial opinion after the official result comes in. Good on ya.
Hey folks, I'm not anyone with ANY authority here, but may I suggest something? I feel that opinions have been fully expressed on the stated topic and we are in danger of devolving away from the topic. I LIKE this community. We are helpful, we try to inform, and we are friendly. I value this far more than the original topic. Thank you for taking the time to read this humble poster's opinion.
The original topic was about the inclusion of integrated VoIP in CoT. Tannim's response implied that VoIP is not being worked on but could be in the future. The original topic is pretty much resolved barring any new information or opinions.
Heated discussions are for the most part a good thing. It shows that people are actually invested in the topic...in this case its CoT. Just to assure you...neither Red nor I are in danger of devolving into a flame war (the bad side of the heated discussion). I like to discuss the things I am passionate about and I suspect that Red feels the same. I know I am capable of not taking flame bait and I am pretty sure Red is as well so even if one of us was to take this conversation down the wrong path the other would not follow.
I appreciate the concern to keep things civil but I honestly think we are a long ways from actual trouble. Besides...both Red and I have made our parting comments showing we are done with our exchange.
Yup. "Later on" is fine, if they can swing it/justify it, but "Now" (in time for game launch) is most likely off the agenda. Which is both a good answer and a reasonable one that manages expectations satisfactorily.
What islandtrevor72 said here. Flame war serves NO ONE, hence why we're both already pulling back from this topic, as mentioned.
Quoted for Truth.
I have nothing more insightful to add.
Done and done.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
In GTA V, my friends and I use mumble even though the game has built in VoIP, most of the built in audio is just people yelling and being annoying. Not saying that that will be how CoT is but it took me all of 5 minutes to download it and get in the server. And it takes just loading it up to get back in when I get on GTA V another day. Usually the people you actually want to talk to are the people you know and when you talk you want only a select few to hear what you say, and that works best with individual servers like mumble, just my two cents
The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One
Avatar by lilshironeko
The raid group expects me to use mumble. The guild expects me to use TeamSpeak. Some friends like to use Ventrilo. It's so frustrating to me. Why can't we settle on a common in game tool?
From the For What It's Worth Dept.:
I'm a crazy RP'er. I enjoy playing my characters both in and out of missions. I also have more fun when those I'm playing with try to be somewhat in character. I prefer to imagine the voices that come with text. Just like when reading a comic. I'm certainly not a Nazi about it, I'm happy to talk tactics during missions when it's appropriate or necessary to accomplish goals. Plus, when playing with friends or SG mates there's a lot of hilarious 3rd party chatter that doesn't have anything to do with the game, and I enjoy that, too.
Needless to say, It's kind of hard to maintain immersion when the 3' tall female pixie character speaks with the voice of a 40 year old male ex-smoker.
With CoH not having a built-in VOIP feature I never felt compelled to use one, and I never missed it. Part of that was the casual speed of play, too. I'm not a blazing typist, but I could always find time to say what I wanted to say during a mission. What I don't want is every random PuG to insist that I plug into the game VOIP or feel like an outcast because I'd actually prefer not to.
If CoT does have integrated voice chat, players will have a choice of using it, using some third party voice chat, or not using voice chat.
If CoT does not have integrated voice chat, players will have the choice of using some third party voice chat or not using voice chat.
Once again, I hope that if MWM decides to not provide a choice, it will be because they judge that implementing it will cost more (whether cash or labor or both) than the benefit of provide a choice is worth, not because of fears of peer pressure. I do not consider removing a choice because of fears of that choice being forced on those who do not want it to be a proper response to those fears.
Warbird, FWIW unless I'm playing with people who already know my voice, I also prefer not to use voice chat, except tactically, so as not to inflict my voice on others who are seeing one of my (many) female characters. So if I'm online in game, feel free to ask me to join a non-voice-chat team up. ^_^
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
.
Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
This is not an actual reply to you Kiyori Anoyui but a general reply to the idea that 3rd party VoIP is a better option than integrated VoIP.
Its true that some people use VoIP for either griefing purposes or they can be generally annoying intended or not.
The same was true of traditional chat channels before safeguards were put in place. While now we get the screamers before we got the spammers (and still do to some extent).
The point I am making is that VoIP can utilize many of the same safeguards that traditional chat does to limit the abuses. At the very least an ignore function should be in place. At best there should be the same standard multiple channels, options to create more, invite options ect...basically everything you can do with traditional text chat.
While mumble is great for the situation you describe in that you only want to talk to people you know, that is not the most common use of an integrated VoIP in a co-operative setting. Usually its used for discussion of what to do next, tactics or general chit chat in a way that has minimal disruption of actual gameplay in PUGs, not established guilds or dedicated teams. In other words, Mumble is great for the smaller dedicated subsection of players but its usefulness drops significantly when you consider the much larger casual player base.
If you think about most PUGs you find they are made up of individuals with no prior connection and while some may stay with the group for hours at a time the team will usually undergo a member change fairly frequently. Each time a new player joins that team the process of getting them into the mumble server can be repeated. So each time a new member joins they either slow the team down while they get set up or they are excluded from much of the discussion unless someone relates info to them. This is assuming they have mumble to begin with and are familiar with it. They might find the process confusing and requiring to be walked through the process or they may not even have the program at all. There is also to consider those that wont want to use a voice program and because the program is 3rd party will not even be able to engage in the discussion without someone on VoIP relating the conversation to them with the traditional text chat.
There are many separate types of 3rd party VoIP programs. Mumble, TeamSpeak, Teamviewer, Google, Skype ect ect ect.......ect.. They are not universally compatable meaning everyone requires the same program. This alone usually results in few PUGs that use any kind of Voice communication at all.
This is why I discount 3rd party options as an actual alternative as they largely only benefit the smaller devoted player group and are cumbersome at best for the larger casual player base. I honestly think that few have considered this side of the discussion. Even in Tannim's response he pointed out how they internally use a 3rd party VoIP for voice communication without explaining how with the internal setup it is different than integrated VoIP.
None of what I have said here or in past posts assumes that VoIP is required for the game to be successful. Nor is it an argument for the changing of the current development schedule. I have simply offered counter points to the arguments of it requiring too much effort/cost to do, the 'social ramification' aspect (that I am still not sure what they truly are) and that 3rd party VoIP programs are a viable alternative.
While it was implied that it is not being worked on currently and to shift focus from something currently being worked on to VoIP is a non-starter at this time, I still contend it was a mistake to have excluded this QoL feature in the first place.
I have never seen a single case where a PUG demanded voice communication. This kind of peer interaction happens in established teams or guilds. I think if people are actually experiencing this its those rare occasions when that player is a random joining an established team or guild group and being the odd man out. Regardless its hardly the norm in relation to VoIP and PUGs. And just as you can say no I won't join your guild if it requires VoIP you can say no to joining a team that requires it. Its not as if peer pressure does not exist in text chat.
This peer pressure argument makes no sense to me as the choice is entirely up to the player in participating or not. An MMO is not a playground where if you don't play sports but instead prefer reading the other kids will tease you once you made your decision. In an MMO you say no and you never see them again. The peer pressure does not follow you around or turn you into an outcast.
As I said in my previous post, a team that has people both on and off a 3rd party VoIP actually creates the exclusion in the team.
Well, I'm not saying VOIP is a bad feature, but it's all but useless to me. I'm hearing impaired and the sound of a crowd on a party-line is just a non-helpful distraction. Frankly, I don't have any intention of investing in the hardware or software needed to participate.
Now, I know, you hearing people have no trouble with being understood, while chattering at a party, with the music AND the television going, but I just cannot function under those circumstances.
I do understand that part of the argument, here, is to have a single VOIP standard that everyone uses. That sounds like a fine idea, but People are people and they won't do it that way. There will still be arguments over which is the best system to use, everyone will insist that the party should use whatever protocol is favored by some person, and people like me, who don't want to use the thing, will still be excluded.
So, rather than expending effort on VOIP, I suggest we all learn to type and read. I do know that this represents yet Another problem for people with vision and dexterity handicaps. They might prefer voice-control and VOIP as a way of coping and they will already have such systems in place. So all the Devs need to worry about is making the game itself accessible.
Be Well!
Fireheart
When I tried Ventrillo and Teamspeak on my old computer, circa 2005, it either didn't work or had a weird background hiss that I couldn'tt get rid of (other people heard it and complained a lot). I learned to play without that stuff and just use text chatting.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
While I can understand why you won't use the feature it is not exactly a compelling reason to not include it.
Again, those that use 3rd party VoIP are not the casual gamer that integrated VoIP is designed for. These arguments about which VoIP is best won't occur in the casual PUG. If the game offers an integrated VoIP it will be what the casual gamer will use or they will not use anything.
Instead of a robust team finder why doesn't everyone just learn to ask questions before forming/joining a team?
Instead of multiple chat channels why not just one and people learn to pay attention to the scrolling text?
Or how about one of your own personal suggestions.
Auto ignore for multiple requests.
It is a QoL feature much like any other QoL feature. It is not a requirement of gaming but it is a good thing to have. It has very little to do with knowing how to type or read.
2005 was still fairly early in the life of Vent and Ts...Ts actually rewrote the program and issued a new release in 2006. As a result they were not the most user friendly programs out there. They have come a long way and now are fairly simple to use and are not plagued by issues like this nearly as often. Integrated VoIP has come a long way also and its not common to find the actual program causing issues and the faults lay with faulty equipment (bad mic or speakers).
But I think what you are saying is that you can live without VoIP completely. So can I.
I can also live without great team search functions, key mapping and a way to change the ingame music volume.
When you discuss something as broad as a QoL feature you should think about who will actually use and benefit from it being included and what the potential drawbacks are and not focus on how it affects you personally.
I tend to feel that robust team-seeking is a much higher priority than VOIP.
Be Well!
Fireheart
So do I. But that was not exactly my point.
I was responding to the oversimplification of the issue with your dismissive 'read and write' comment by showing that just because something can be handled purely on the players side with a bit of effort does not mean that a QoL feature is a waste of time.
No doubt, but your implication in the comparison is that they are equally useful.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Wow... I did not realize VoIP in games was such a contentious issue.
Personally, I dislike Voice Chat. I used it in Lineage II for about a year and a half. We used TeamSpeak, I think? It's been several years now. I never found it useful. There was one person in the clan who loved Voice Chat and tried to have anyone removed from the clan who did not use it. He spent all of his time online making rude, sexually explicit remarks to the few female players in the clan, driving a couple of them to eventually leave the clan. The ones who remained seemed to find him humorous. Personally, I found him nauseating and the experience has put me completely off Voice Chat in games ever since. It's bad enough having to stop what I'm doing long enough to block such people from text chats. I'm not a woman, and I was never a target of anyone like him, but being forced to listen to his remarks every time I logged on went way beyond annoying. After a year and a half of putting up with it I just dropped out of the clan. Some people truly disgust me.
Now, I'm not implying that anyone here would behave in this way. I don't know anyone here well enough to say one way or another what kind of person they would become when given a captive audience. I am merely relating why I dislike Voice Chat in games. Even if MWM decides to include it, I will not be using it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My author page at Amazon: https://amzn.to/2MPvkRX
My novelty shirts: https://amzn.to/31Sld32
I had a tangentially similar experience in Star Trek Online. I was part of a Fleet that I'd been invited to and I contributed resources to the Fleet Projects when I could and got promoted up the ranks and so on. Then the Fleet Leader told me I needed to get VoIP and log into his Teamspeak server. I hadn't used VoIP up to that point and had no intention of doing so. I asked if I could still be a part of the Fleet without using VoIP, because I'd asked the question before joining and was told that VoIP was not required to be a member of the Fleet, even though a lot of Fleet members used it.
So I declined the "polite demand" to join the Fleet's VoIP channel. The next day, I found out that the Fleet Leader had kicked me from the Fleet simply because I wouldn't use their VoIP. After that, I had to go shopping for a new Fleet, since there are certain in-game services that are only accessible while in a Fleet, including PvE Queues.
So there's another side to my experiences in avoiding being required to participate in VoIP. Never been particularly impressed by it, never regretted not using it. Correspondingly, the value I place on the service is quite low, even though I know other people use it.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Its not really. It just seems that way from the thread.
In your post you detail an experience in which while using a 3rd party VoIP you were forced to listen to friends being abused and this has made you dislike Voice chat in games completely.
Let me explain it in a slightly different way.
You joined a group with a poorly moderated 3rd party VoIP and found that a single person was cause a great deal of issues with your enjoyment. Instead of finding a solution to the issue by either petitioning the moderator to stop the abuse or leaving you instead endured the situation until you broke and no longer participate in voice chat at all.
The entire set of problem you had was not with VoIP it was the situation.
By entering a 3rd party VoIP you basically agree to play by the moderators rules...which can be anything and can change on a whim. Its not official so it does not need to play by any set parameters.
Integrated VoIP comes with rules. The situation you describe here would have become much less likely to occur. I am not saying it wouldn't happen at all but it becomes less common. Much like text chat there are avenues you can follow to stop a situation like this long before it gets to the point you describe. And as you know, text chat is just as likely to contain these annoying situations.
About the entire idea of being 'forced' to listen. Well that's just ridiculous. You walked into that room found you didn't like it and decided to stay.
I know I am unlikely to change your opinion on the matter and that fine there is nothing wrong with it. I am not really talking to you but more to those who read these posts and don't have an opinion set yet. I am hoping that the purely anecdotal argument against VoIP can be countered by the actual logic of the situation.
You think I consider team search functions, ingame volume controls and keymapping all the same level as VoIP?
Regardless....I can see how it can look that way so fair enough. In truth I picked whatever QoL features I thought of.
Um ... point of order?
In order for VoIP to be moderated, someone needs to be enforcing the rules, as you quite correctly cite. If it's a 3rd party VoIP, that responsibility for moderation clearly falls outside of the purview of the game itself or its staff. In other words, the "onus" to moderate what gets said on 3rd party VoIP lies with the individuals making the service available (ie. whoever is running the server for it).
But if VoIP is integrated into City of Titans ... who is responsible for moderating it? Because I can tell you right now that the vast overwhelming supermajority of Players are going to lay the responsibility for moderating VoIP on MWM. Why? Because it's something that's built into the game, therefore MWM has responsibility to moderate it.
We can debate the "fairness" of that perception all you want, but expectations don't have to align with "fairness" when it comes to laying responsibility (and blame) for things that go wrong.
You say that integrated VoIP comes with rules. Who makes the rules? Who punishes people who break those rules? Who maintains the rules and updates them when they need changing? Who is supposed to be moderating those voice channels? What sort of liability issues is MWM exposing themselves to by integrating VoIP into City of Titans?
If that sounds like a customer service nightmare just waiting to explode, I have a sinking suspicion that may be true. If everyone played nice and had a wonderful time, we wouldn't have to think about these kinds of things because no one would ever (dare) step out of line. Unfortunately, we know better. The ugly side of human nature comes out all too easily, especially when we think we can get away with it.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Seriously Red....you think VoIP was to blame in that situation you described. The guy lied to you. You read about this kinda behavior all the time in COH. You would join a guild and things went well for a bit then all of a sudden they started demanding you go and earn for the guild when you didn't they kicked you. The problem isn't VoIP is schmucks like that.
I guess the only arguments against VoIP people can muster up are purely anecdotal so here is one of my own.
I play the co-operative game L4D2 quite a lot. Since its release to now I have racked up 1119 hours of game time. The game has a integrated VoIP. In PUGs I have never ....not a single time... seen anyone told they can't play unless they use it. What I have seen is the group stop and help new players learn to set up their VoIP, help them fix bad sound quality, stop using VoIP constantly (as L4D2 is a game with many sound clue to help you play), explain to new players how to improve without the hint of impatience, provide tactical advice, chit chat, discuss real world issues, joke, innocently flirt, playfully tease, strongly rebuke the rude, enforce an intolerance against the intolerant, get relationship advice, provide support for a stranger who is upset, ask for help getting achievements, make friends, get employment, get an apartment (that one was me) and generally have fun in each others company. All while playing a game that has both voice and text chat that does not even have a way to ignore other players.
I have also seen jerks who spam the mic, make obscene comments, verbally abuse other players, express continued frustration at not getting their way, be arrogant and generally make the game a misery to play.
The positives far surpass the negatives from my experiences.
Or how about another.
Just like many of you I played a lot of CoH. Right after bases were introduced I was on a TF and after I got invited to a SG called the Revenants by another player on the team. Before I agreed I asked what was required of me when I joined. I was told nothing was required, just that we had fun in the TF and thought I would make a good fit. I agreed and after about a week I was asked if I had TS...which I didn't so he asked to me install it. I figured sure why not. I installed it but found that there was a conflict that did not allow me to use the right port and was unable to get it working. (Days before I knew how to correct such issues)
A few days later he asked again to install TS. I said I was not interested in wasting the time to get it working. A few more requests and a few more refusals happen. Then one day he tells me to get my stuff out of base storage I am being removed from the group. I ask why. He tells me that I have not been living up to the required amount of teaming or earning enough SG money so I have to be removed. I told him that was not what he said to begin with. After a bit of discussion I found out that the SG had been discussing the idea of a making those things required of the members on TS for a few weeks and came to the decision.
Because I did not get TS set up I was completely out of the loop in regards to that discussion. If integrated had been in the game I could have heard the discussion even if I was unable or unwilling to speak and not have been blindsided.
But these are anecdotal much like many of the posts in the thread. As such they offer no actual reason to support or deny integrated VoIP. These personal experience posts only serve to confirm those in agreement with the position the anecdotal evidence and are largely ignored by those that don't. Can they stop please?
Yup. Just like they have to moderate text chat, in game emails, the forums, their own content, offensive characters or theft of others intellectual property within their game.
MWM makes the rules. Just like they make the rules for text chat, in game emails ect ect ect.
As far as liability....seriously.... integrated VoIP has been in games for quite some time. Hasn't been a lot of cases concerning it. In fact in my searching I have been unable to find a single one that relates to gaming (granted all I did was play with google).
Honestly ...did you even think about this before posting it? Many games use VoIP....consoles even have VoIP now.
Even in the competitive FPS world with its ridiculously offensive communications it has not been an issue. Gamers know its there and can turn it off if they don't want to hear it.
What makes you think that integrated VoIP is going to be a customer nightmare or that people will all of a sudden start legal actions because its in this game?
I explained before that I understood that its inclusion would result in additional cost in both finances and effort...part of that includes the extra customer service issue that will result. They wont all be issues of complaint either...there will be those that need support to help them getting it working or to find out how to turn it off or any other thing the general masses call support about regarding anything and everything.
But this feature will not cause the game to implode with the fury of a million gamers both causing issues or trying to get those issue solved so just stop.
The person in question was co-founder to the clan and chief moderator of the clan's Team Speak. This was not some random chat room. This was a required voice chat channel for participation in the clan. Have you ever played Lineage II? The game is virtually unplayable without membership in a clan.
Yes, it was the "situation" not the technology, however, it was the technology that made the situation both possible and unbearable. Text chat I can block. Trying to block a channel moderator in Team Speak? I don't even know if that's possible!
I know you enjoy voice chat. Not a problem. I am neither advocating for integrated voice chat nor against integrated voice chat. I'm simply relating that my personal experience was so unpleasant that even if MWM does provide integrated voice chat, I won't be using it. So you don't need to "sell" me on the idea. Now you can spend a few hundred words trying to "sell" me on the idea of voice chat if you like. That is your freedom. But it won't work.
People are people. Some people are revolting. I will never again get stuck in voice chat with a revolting person. I have better things to do with my time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My author page at Amazon: https://amzn.to/2MPvkRX
My novelty shirts: https://amzn.to/31Sld32
Had to wait for a PM reply before I could respond.
None of which matters. Unless you are going to say that the game had only one clan and only one TS server then the choice was entirely yours. But I guess if you can't take responsibility for putting yourself in that situation then the next best thing is to blame something else. Right?
C'mon you said you put up with it a year and a half and in that time you never once thought about leaving but decided to stay after all? You even describe how some of those being offended left before you did which shows you had options but didn't take them.
And that is exactly my point. By limiting players to 3rd party unofficially monitored VoIP this kind of situation is much more likely. When its a feature of the game it becomes governed by MWM and there will be another layer of protection for players.
Let me be clear because this assumption is only based on your perception (and the fact I expect you did not read any of the thread before responding). I have not said once that I enjoy, prefer or require VoIP in any way. In fact I have stated that I do not think its needed for my enjoyment of the game. I have contended that it was a mistake to not include it for launch and that it is unlikely it will be included after launch which would further compound that mistake.
And as I said, and which you seem to have missed or simply didn't read, is that my counter points are not meant for you as you have made up your mind...they are for those who may take your experiences as the norm and similarly confuse 3rd party VoIP with integrated VoIP. I also said that there is nothing wrong with your opinion so how you can just ignore that to make the accusatory 'sell you' comment further leads me to the conclusion you did not read my reply. Or you just ignored what I said to make an unrelated argument have validity. Which one of these guys did ya wanna be?
My reasons for wanting integrated VoIP are because I don't want situations like yours to be as common and casual players (an arguably larger player base) are the ones who will use this feature and will miss it if it is not included. I want a good community and I want good accessibility. I may have missed the boat on getting it included at launch but I am gonna make sure I do as much as I can to get it included later.
Yet you want the game to create the same situation you found yourself in before. Groups that decide to require the use of 3rd party VoIP that is poorly moderated because there is no alternative.
And just so we are clear. The implied notion that if there is integrated VoIP you will be forced to participate is a fallacy. Just like text chat can be turned off, in game emails can be deleted unread and unwanted team invites can be refused...so to will integrated VoIP be able to be turned off. If you are that worried about being offended by someone on VoIP then turn it off...don't join teams that require it...don't join a SG that requires it and never turn it on again. The argument that you are forced into it is as ridiculous as saying you are forced to respond to every global text.
So...yes I will keep arguing these biased experiences even if they include the disclaimer of 'neither advocating for integrated voice chat nor against integrated voice chat' because despite that disclaimer it is advocating a side you just don't want to take responsibility for it.
That's one perspective, sure.
The other one is that the anecdote describes a situation in which a channel that ought to be moderated to remove the offending influence ISN'T moderated (in this case because the offender is tasked with the moderation). Such a circumstance aligns congruently with what should be expected to happen when moderation of speech chat doesn't happen.
And now you're "volunteering" MWM to moderate voice chat again. Mighty generous of you. The responsibility for doing that moderation isn't free since it requires the dedication of man-hours to the task, even if the software that allows the feature to exist is effectively free.
Unmoderated chat has a decided tendency to swirl down the drain and reach for the sewers. We don't even need to guess about that part, even if it doesn't happen in every case. The point is that it happens [i]often enough[/i] to rank unmoderated chat (either text or voice) as a hazard to be either avoided or better yet prevented, rather than something to be subsidized at MWM's expense while turning a blind eye towards it.
Anything you can't defend will be taken over by squatters who will have their own agenda. It's true in the real world, and it's true on the internet, and it's true in online gaming. We don't have to guess. WE KNOW.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
You say this as though I have not used that as one of the basis for my opinion. In fact the next quote from me in your post directly says that.
No...I am flat out expecting MWM to provide a form of protection against its abuse if they decide to include it. Just as I expect text chat to provide that protection. Or for that matter I expect any feature they put in the game to be have some form of protection against abuse.
But I think you were trying to lead me down the path of 'active moderating' of the integrated VoIP and not the reactive moderating that most features get. Sorry but not gonna bite.
I have made it clear what I think is required of MWM in regards to moderating an integrated VoIP.
If I squint I can almost see the argument that you think the costs of this feature are too high too include it in the game. I stated very early I did not agree with that assessment. If you want to discuss that further we can....but its going to mostly be speculative as much of it is in the realm of future events like how much work is going to be required to support VoIP, what the additional cost is for servers, how often maintenance is required of the system, if there is conflicts in code, if MWM has to hire outside support for the feature, ect. Then compare it to speculations on, how much this feature would draw players in, how much it would sustain players interest thus keeping people playing (and paying) and so forth.
Again...I don't expect MWM to turn a blind eye to it. I have very clearly stated the opposite. A lot.
What confuses me is in this quote you talk about unmoderated chat and even point out it can be voice or text as something to avoid. Does this mean you expect that text chat in CoT will be unmoderated? If you do you are insane. If you don't then much of the same protection can be applied to integrated VoIP.
You and many others have stated you won't have a use for VoIP and I can fully respect that. But when you use horror stories of bad experiences (especially when they were not even on an integrated VoIP), misleading ideas that it will be 'forced' on players and scare tactics invoking liability issues or overwhelmed support staff .... to manipulate opinion....that's not something I am going to respond to in nice ways.
Moderators for in-game text-chat offenses is practically a given in an MMO. We had them back in EverQuest, in the dark ages, when I was young and beautiful. *grin*
However, now you're advocating for the Devs to add another feature AND supply the work to moderate it And the Liability. You see, one of the Hazards in using 3rd party communication is that you can assume, going in, that there's no moderator and no one to hold accountable for the [url=http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/]GIF[/url]s.
At least, with text-chats, it's relatively easy to capture and parse the stream, if GIFs are Reported. Harder to do that with voice-chat.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I won't disparage the request but only want to add that chat moderation is also comparatively easier then live voice moderation with the low overhead of capturing chat logs to larger sound files. We are talking an MMO here with hundreds, thousands, to potentially hundreds of thousands of people.
Being able to pull up a chat log with search queries related to names and key phrases to verify an account of abuse in some form in order to make a judgement call after the fact is by far easier than requesting a time index and having to listen through voice chat to verify an instance of abuse after the fact.
I've a close friend who operates the company respnsible for video and audio capture of every major league sport within the U.S. Which includes e-sport video game companies, and even other video game companies unrelated to sports. Their proprietary software, techs, and service they provide to these companies are not cheap. It is services like his that are used to be able to quickly find desiresd video and audio references of logged player activities. They can find info in the video and audio files and quickly edit dsired portions for anything from instant replays, commercial packages, sound and vid bites for marketing, and even including law suits (yes involving video games over thjngs people have said).
It is just anout the only way I could fathom having any sort of relatively meaningful way to respond to abuse reports or moderating voice chat on the developer / company side. Which is why suspect the MMOs thst use VoIP leVe the moderation up to the players and there is very little provided in the way of company oversight of private voice chat channels reserving any man power to any local or broadcasted conversations.
Further more, going back to overhead of integrated voice chat, just because UE 4 has the ability to set up for in-game use it does not offer all the tools players are used to with voice chat integration. We would have to build in all thise featurs ourselves from the ability to have multiple channels, including private channels, player moderation controls and so on. Doing all that and covering the consistant voice-connection reauires development time, on a continual basis ot just upfront.
It is why companies like SOE have contracted outside thier dev house for this feature, they went with Vivox.
As I said we haven't even bothered to make our own voice chat system because if it becomes necessary there other other alternatives. Which means had we deemed voice chat necessary for development it would be necessary for playing. This is how we built most of our tools, with not just how we will use them but players too.
Voil integration set up isn't too difficult in a most rudimentary sense. Creating something that meets the complex needs of an MMO is substantial. Upkeep of such a feature adds further steain to dev teams. Which is where outside contracting comes in. At this time and certainly for quite some time into the future it is not an inconsequential cost. I'm completely certain if such a feature were deemed a necessity it would be quite a different.
Since it is not a launch or anywhere in the realm of post launch feature due to costs involved, if and when we are wildly successful some years after launch and have the funds to consider such a reature I would imagine that the business team would err on the end of not significant enough of a feature for the RoI. Realise, by such a time there would be players in the game for some number of years without integrated voice chat. Anyone that would need it as a necssity or really liked the convenience would already have it from a thid party source.
My guess would be that by such a time, for it to be likely to include such a feature it would be the result of a change in the landscape of MMO gaming in general where VoIP chat was fastly be omming the standard.
So let us all just relax in he knowledge that as it stands, there is no VoIP. It may be something revisited in the future but not on any existing time line of scheduling.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Yup...why I said it would be insane to think they would not have protection for CoT text chat.
I am not suddenly now advocating that. I have been saying that for much of the discussion. Does it surprise you that I want them to take responsibility for the things in the game (not just VoIP but whatever they include)? I honestly don't get why anyone would think they wouldn't.
I would like you to explain what you mean by Liability though. Do you mean legal Liability? Or do you just mean liability as in the responsibility MWM should have in dealing with issues? Capital L or lowercase.
Its a little confusing in its wording so I need this clarified. To me it sounds like you are just restating my point that 3rd party VoIP is unmoderated. Except you are explaining it to me like I was unaware of that fact. So youmust be saying something else.
If capturing the chat log was the only method of protection for either text or voice chat then I would agree completely voice chat does not have decent enough protection. But I would also think text chat was woefully under protected too even with its easier chat capture ability.
But I clearly explained the levels of protection I would consider minimal and best to expect.
Just to restate them
Minimum protection:
Mute option
Ignore option
best protection to expect (includes the minimum protection):
Standard separate chat channels
Channel creation options
Options to control what channels you will send or receive voice to/from
Invite and kick options
A report system
Easy application for everything involved (including a quick click method to mute, kick or ignore)
Technical support
These are all pretty much standard with text chat protection. The biggest things missing are chat capture and word censorship (which is a whole other issue I disagree with).
Other things that could be considered that are not part of text chat protections are:
No global Voice chat (a moderately common feature in MMO's with VoIP)
Character flags showing a desire for voice chat or not.
A volume regulator where sudden changes in volume ensure it does not deafen the player.
Visible display on teams showing if VoIP is on or not.
An option to ONLY receive voice from those you permit.
I do concede that an In game voice capture system to make reports with would be the most ideal option. They do exist but my experience with them is limited. keep in mind that games did not always include easy ways to parse and capture chat logs and would sometimes required an outside program for a player to do so.
Our thoughts align. My guess is that the "disruptive change" that would push VoIP into being more of a mainstream feature would be {dun-dun-duuunn} VR gaming, in which you'd want to free yourself from the QWERTY device for communications. Working hand in glove with that would be improvements in speech recognition trending towards the "Star Trek" experience of simply talking to the computer to give it commands and instructions. Pair that up with "glove" controllers (ala the movie Minority Report) and you're on your way to a wholesale revolution of the man/machine interface for gaming.
Bring on the Sword Art Online ...
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Yes. You have. Repeatedly.
You've also been told, repeatedly, that the "price" for that IS NOT FREE ... and yet you continue to minimize that aspect of the equation so as to dismiss the concern (or declare it irrelevant).
Now Tannim222 has weighed in on the subject with supporting evidence that moderation IS NOT FREE ... nor is it a cost that MWM can easily absorb (especially if they want to "do it right" instead of pathetically) in the context of VoIP.
So ... who are you going to believe? I'll skip the part about "lying something something" in the usual saying out of courtesy to you.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Thank you. It's good to know that the devs actually listen to the fans... even if we don't agree.
Given todays landscape I can certainly respect that. It's a much more cautious (and therefore expensive) option than I was advocating. I certainly don't begrudge you to base the decision of VoIP's inclusion by picking the absolute best way to be vigilant in moderating voice chat. I was obviously advocating a middle ground of this and how other games trend to treat VoIP moderating. As you explain here:
I assumed a slightly more hands on approach to private channel oversight by MWM would occur in my arguments.
As I don't actually know what your code is or how difficult it would be to add VoIP I could only go by the information I have gotten through Unreal's forums (among others) regarding VoIP. Most of which lead me to believe VoIP features were comparatively easy to apply and maintain. From your statement that seems to not be true in CoT's case.
I concede the point as I just don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to my assessment of the situation.
This is my fear regarding VoIP. As the gaming industry makes VoIP a more standard feature, CoT may find its exclusion causes problems that cannot be solved by adding it later.
This was my very first argument in regards to integrated VoIP. I think that right now multiplayer games in general are leaning towards the inclusion of voice chat. To the point where its pretty noticeable when it isn't included.
Its why I think a feature like this is important for the large casual player audience who are the most common users of integrated VoIP.
You obviously had taken that into consideration long before I said it and made a call based on your current situation. My point becomes irrelevant as it had been considered and its value had been decided before this was even a thread.
I'm obviously not happy at this fact but I do get in your current situation its just not possible for the foreseeable future... if ever. I do thank you again though for explaining the reasoning behind the choice more clearly.
I guess I will have to put my hopes in the game being released on steam and the casual player finds value in its limited voice chat as an available universal option. Bit of a tall order... but fingers crossed.
Ahh yes ....the parting shot where you put words in my mouth, ignore my actual statements and pretend you were saying what the official word said all along. I love these little exchanges...its like acid while drunk.
I'm curious now, how did you envision it?
The only one I can think of right now as a middle ground between no moderation and capture-moderation would one that randomly (or when flagged) listens in on custom channels. This means that you effectively have to have a dedicated staff for it. And that many situations may become a he said she said situation.
Comparatively easy to what? No I'm serious, you must have had something in mind when you wrote the underlined part.
There should be two major points that doesn't make this "easy" for anyone with just a little bit of coding know-how, integrating with account system and text-chat system, and all the UI elements. Without that integration it will be basically useless and more likely detrimental to integrate VoIP into a game.
Account system is self explanatory but since there is no standard among those there is just no way to point UE's base VoIP at the account system and have it work.
Integration with text-chat would be needed for automatic handling of group/raid and guild (and possibly some other) channels, since having to handle that manually would make many just not bother with it.
The UI elements are need for one to actually be able to use it. Set ones preferences, switching channel (having that only automatic would be idiotic), creating and "moderating" custom channels, actually enabling it and so on.
Providing the codecs and a basic way to accessing the necessary hardware is a very small (but vital) part of implementing a VoIP system, but providing those does not make the rest "easy".
Scroll up.
An engine that does not include VoIP and as a result does not have as extensive a support or as large a knowledge base specific to both the engine and VoIP, coupled with higher instances of compatibility issues to name a few.
How far?
I can't see where you explicitly state how much handson moderation you expected out of MWM, compared to the tools you expect that players will have available. You being able to mute/kick someone in a channel does not make it handson moderation by MWM.
Fair enough, but effectively everything where you are provided a base (or even full solution) that is even somewhat fitting for your needs will be easier to a certain degree compared to having to do it from scratch.
I didn't read all of the replies, but.. like Games for Windows live (XBox live), etc..
..there would have to be Voice Message support too.
If not, it will be one of the top 10 Requested features. Be prepared for that! :/
Unless there's a free(or pay) service that allows users to upload to a storage like a DropBox, etc..
If you're Cheap, like me ;), let City of Titans use your SMTP/POP3 account to Send Receive Attachments as Voice Mail instead.
Post 52. I include a report system and further state that I didn't expect it to include chat capture.
Hence the qualifier of 'comparatively'.
I'm not sure what you are after here. My part in this discussion is almost from the beginning and all arguments I have made are in relation to other peoples points. Just pointing you to a specific response does not give you the context to its full meaning.
For example...regarding the moderation issue. It was in response to a personal experience on a 3rd party program as an argument for the exclusion of integrated VoIP. I was very careful to use the words 'safeguard' and 'protection' as I knew using the word 'moderate' would be focused upon.
I was right as Red instantly jumped on that (having a background in customer service gave Red insight), while missing the broader point. Which was that MWM could set up rules to follow regarding VoIP that they WERE ABLE to enforce and not a blanket of complete protection (evident in the fact that I acknowledge that the experience I was responding to would become less likely but would not be completely avoided).
I continued to use words like 'protection', 'govern' and 'safeguard' and tried to explain my thoughts of how to do so using specific text chat auto protection methods. The only time I actually used moderate as a description to what I was suggesting was to show how it wasn't direct moderating in post 49.
That's when Tyche stepped in and explained the reasons why the dev team had decided to not include VoIP (coincidently while I was in the midst of typing my own reply which became moot).
Similarly the point of 'comparative' ease stems from earlier points made. Ones that imply massive undertaking (re-inventing the wheel was used to describe the effort required) to include VoIP. In those arguments I said flat out that I did not know the code the devs were using and that I could be wrong and was going off of information I gleaned from other unrelated sources. Whats more I already conceded that my thinking was not in line with MWM on this point so ...
Again I am not sure what you want from this but nothing I have said in this thread lives in a vacuum its related to something else which is related to something else.
Having been subjected to online harassment a couple of time (never with City of Heroes though, that really was the best community bar none!), I prefer a little more distance between voice and game than integrated voice chat provides.
There are times I just want to play a game in peace without my gender become obvious the moment I open my mouth.
Yup...some immature (note I said immature and not young) gamers still do not know how to deal with people in a social setting and with the safety of a screen between them tend to become annoying at best...offensive at worst. I think every person who has spent any amount of time online or even in social networks can give an example where they have been harassed, offended, bullied or insulted. Look up Creepy text theater ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQJOOTdyLRA&list=PL9ctBxu8o6Tz99667IyHoYn63izxG3_MH ) on youtube for extreme cases (that are funny because of how disturbing they are). Warning...NSFW.
I still don't get why people would not simply avoid the use of integrated VoIP if they were this concerned about it. Instead of simply saying to not include it.
Having embedded voice chat would make, in the eyes of the players, make MWM at least co-responsible, if not fully responsible, for what is going on on the chat channels (*).
Microsoft's XBox Live service has received a lot of flak for the online harassment of female players that use that service (to the point that they stop paying for it in large percentages to avoid the 'feature'). It also is clearly treated as a problem that /microsoft/ needs to solve, even though they only provide the service and in no way or form state they consider themselves responsible for how it is used. The players think otherwise and even a behemoth like Microsoft has to bow to that opinion.
XBox Live also has clearly demonstrated that the ability to mute another player does not address the problem by any stretch of imagination and that kicking a player almost never happens. In the hands of the wrong crowd it makes for an ugly and off-putting experience.
Again, I am not saying I expect City of Titans to become remotely like xbox live, but baed on those and similar experiences I think it is best if voice chat is kept out of the game itself and remains a third party add-on rather than a game feature. It will cause less problems that way.
(* Marian's Stamp Collectors Dilemma does apply here. Players who have no interest in verbal PvP are in essence made responsible for policing the chat channels if the providing company does not step in. This is always a losing proposition for those who are not looking for player conflicts).
Well, my main reason is two-fold. One is the cost, as already discussed. Two is the fact that, for that portion of the community that values VOIP, they will have already invested in third-party solutions.
The result is that any money, time, and effort that Devs spend on this feature is 'wasted'... on Me, at least. So, I tend to want them to focus on making the game I will play. I'm just selfish and greedy, that way. *grin*
Be Well!
Fireheart
I am assuming you are referring to cases like these.
http://kotaku.com/microsofts-slow-response-to-xbox-harassment-leaves-one-1139807887
http://geek-woman.com/wordpress/2007/07/20/harassment-of-women-and-children-in-xbox-live/
These are just two of the stories involving Xbox and VoIP but are indicative of a majority of others.
In most of these cases there was clear and easy to recognize...not to mention extreme...violations by the offenders and the victims followed every procedure correctly to report the incidents.
The reason Microsoft got the flak(and some legal issues) was that these issues were not dealt with in timely fashion which has been an ongoing problem with Microsoft for years...not just Xbox.
Or rather I should say its one of the larger factors in a very big and complex topic which includes factors such as competitive or co-op games, average player base age, console or computer along with many other factors.
I do agree that public opinion on this is important and has the capacity to change how it is dealt with.
I did oversimplify this with an earlier statement which I should not have done (as it could easily be viewed as to encompass the entirety of VoIP issues and not the ones I was referring to.)
Thank you for taking the time to explain the reasoning behind your opinion. I do still maintain that ,barring extreme cases like these, the responsibility for avoiding these issues is on the player. But I fully respect your opinion.
Should you get that million and a half on the second month. Do you got a back up plan.
[CENTER][URL=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/18.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
[URL=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-knhgv6lgbrs/UA_riCKAHNI/AAAAAAAATxE/u-sgh23bZhc/s640/wonder_women_by_penichet-d47up0l.jpg [/IMG][/URL]
Guys, I'm going to save some time.
We decided long ago there wasn't a strong enough compelling argument to integrate voice chat vs. allowing the end user to bring their own.
We've had all of the same arguments and pretty much all of the same pro and con points made and came to the conclusion it was imply a better solution for us to have this as a bring your own situation.
And the choir sang, "A-a-a-a-amen!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My author page at Amazon: https://amzn.to/2MPvkRX
My novelty shirts: https://amzn.to/31Sld32
Too late.
If Tyche had explained just how unlikely integrated VoIP was to be included in the future I would not have wasted my time.
But we have not wasted our time. Even if it is about a topic that the developers already decided on for their game, the exchange of opinions and explanation for the reasons behind them tought us all things. There is more to this forum than hoping we can convince the developers to include our personal favourite feature into the game. It also is part of the player community and learning from each other as well as setting the tone for what hopefully will become the way the game community interacts, is also an important part what we are doing here.
Normally I would agree with you. The pursuit of knowledge is always a good goal.
I was referring to my personal experience in this discussion.
I spent time researching points. learning about unreal, investigating issues and so forth. I did this because I was under the impression that VoIP was not included in release as it was just not feasible. My intention was to get this feature to be considered important enough to include it early in the life of the game as opposed to shuffled off into purgatory. It has now been made clear to me just how unlikely it will ever be put into the game.
Hence my saying I would not have wasted my time. I still have points and counter points I could speak on...but there seems little reason to make as they come from the idea that VoIP is becoming an industry standard and that it is the larger casual player base who would benefit from this feature the most (which would help with customer retention). Both opinions are not new to the thread. These opinions are not shared by the dev. They are the metric by which I measure the value of integrated VoIP so to attain my goal I would first need to convince the Devs my opinion is correct before I can dispute any reasons to not include it. Changing the opinion of another is never easy but its even more difficult when that opinion has been reached by actual study of the subject at hand.
That's just a long way to say the battle I was fighting was not the right battle and the right battle is not one I want to fight.
I would like to say that I did make a mistake in that statement though. I said Tyche when I meant Tannim...referring to his response early in the thread. Please keep in mind I am not blaming Tannim....he made a good faith statement and I made an assumption without verifying, the fault is mine.
But you did discover new things and organized a good argument. You simply lacked the information that the Devs had already considered the issue and made a decision based on the realities they found. Kudos to you, anyway, sir.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I would not be heart-set on trying to force feature-set changes. That way lies madness without adding the tyranny of the mob. :)