One failure of COH was the utter lack of super villains. Cookie cuter rent-a-mobs have their place. But I want to start fighting real super villains at level one.
and you can reuse them too. Everyone loves the recurring villain. The AI can use the Player's name, saying things like, "We meet again, Black Falcon!"
I know rent-a-mobs are cheaper for developers....but lets do it right this time!
Thank you.
I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT A NEMESIS. I WANT SUPER VILLAINS IN DOOR MISSIONS.
Thank you.
—
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
Sounds like a nemesis system............
Formerly known as Bleddyn
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i agree Bleddyn nemesis system now developers not have time to put in CoT ( or that people who have ideal has resigned or been eaten or maybe the parasitic brain worms that control Missing Worlds Media upper management have got to him as well. What's that, you're getting hungry? Okay, I'll just put some cat food down my ear. Yes, I know you like the chunky kind." )
whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster and when you look into the abyss, the abyss also look into you, -Friedrich
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I want more than a nemesis system. I want super villains in missions.
I want unannounced villain attacks in the open city, Like Giganta. suddenly appearing.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
To quote Spock from "Amok Time" ... I think you will find a great difference between HAVING and WANTING ...
What you're asking for is a [b]NON[/b]-trivial sort of thing, not to mention something that relies on continuity in order to pull it off successfully. You also have to deal with the possibility of non-linear progression through the Nemesis System in order to account for a bewildering variety of possible progression paths (ie. all of them). In order to do this sort of thing RIGHT, you have to do more than just stencil serial numbers onto the side of already existing content.
I can perfectly well understand the DESIRE to want something like this, because conceptually speaking it would be really cool. It's when you start getting down into the nitty gritty nuts and bolts of HOW to do it that you suddenly find yourself dealing with a [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzAQ-jYfEqA]Rube Goldberg[/url] kind of structure underpinning the whole thing that can get [b]very[/b] confusing in a hurry.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Black Falcon....egads! it's my evil self from Praetoria! how did he get here!....sonofa..... :p
the one thing I really liked from CO that I hope to see implemented in CoT is something along the nemesis system. it provided something for the players to develop and also was a reoccuring supervillain for the players to face off against. I would do a few things differently, but I did like it...especially the part where the player got to actually design the supervillain...very cool, imo.
iirc, CoH had supervillains in missions, but the difficulty settings had to be turned up. otherwise, I would keep em tied to various mission arcs. sure, I suppose it would be kinda cool to have the occasional open world events where a supervillain, or group of supervillains, popped up although I would make the open world ones not tied to a specific spot and make it more general. meaning the open world event could originate anywhere in a predetermined area/zone.
.
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
Cyclops I'm there with ya man.
I think what you're asking for is what a superhero game is supposed to be all about
lacking that, the game always feel like it's missing something.
unless I get used to PVP (UGH!)
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
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Thank you. and to reiterate, I'm NOT talking about a nemesis system.
I am talking about door missions.
Level 3, talk to your contact, get a mission to investigate thefts in the industrial sector. Sounds like a gang mission, but it is not. The Blue Meanie (villain boss hires a few gang members as muscle to gather the components for his new invention) surprises you. You defeat him, but it opens up an arc for two other missions where he is building a laser weapon the size of an artillery gun to destroy the city for laughing at his name.
the last mission he knows you are coming and hired a few super powered Lts and another boss to protect the gun.
This is NOT a nemesis! this just a mission. and the Blue Meanie can be used again and again. He will level with the player. Do you guys understand now?
All I want is a reusable stable of super villains to beat the snot outa. Further they can gather to gether and beat the snout outa us. I cannot see where it would be that expensive.
this is comic immersion. The one on one battles with a costumed villain.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
One thing I've seen in a lot of video games (starting with Donkey Kong) thats included as a mechanic in My PnP game, is that some villains escape when you beat them. There is no way to stop them the game jumps to s cutscene showing there escape. Then you know they'll be back.
You do get to beat them for good in the final mission of the chain.
I'd like that.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Lord Nemesis learned to recognize my Mastermind. After Issue 14 or 15 there were several missions where after working through his various soldiers and war machines there would be a Fake(?) Nemesis (always with the question mark, so corny) saying something like, "Didn't we already do this, Dusty Enalios?" or "Dusty Enalios! You again?" It was kind of cheeky, but it made me smile.
As for having a genuine ingame nemesis...I'm not sure it's practical. Nor am I certain I would find it as entertaining as some other folks. Maybe if during character creation a player was asked if they wanted to create a nemesis character, and then were tasked with assigning that character custom powers, appearance, and personality. Again, the programming aspect of this feels incredibly daunting to me. I know enough about programming to know this is no trivial undertaking. It would require very flexible run-time missions that could plug in the Nemesis character, animate it, and provide a suitable dialog for it. It would also require an AI devoted just to the nemesis character class with enough flexibility to appear differently to different players. Writing dialog that is both general enough to apply to anyone and flexible enough to reflect several different personality types would be very challenging and enormously time-consuming. And all for what? A cardboard NPC you create yourself that shows up every third mission or so and taunts you with cheesy one-liners? That adds up to a wealth of resources dedicated to creating a functionality very few players would find enjoyable.
Perhaps those who desire a nemesis should take advantage of the user generated content tools to script their very own personal story arc with a custom arch villain at the center of it? That seems to me a far more practical solution.
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NO! I'm NOT talking about a nemesis!
I JUST WANT SUPER VILLAINS IN DOOR MISSIONS!
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
I have to ask... would you use the Nemesis System for each ALT? or is it just for 2 or 3 toons?
I'm just trying to get a feel for how often and useful this might really be. Any percentages you give might be handy too. :)
But We're not against a nemesis either .
Right?
But yeah I'd like a whole gallery of bad guys who know and hate me.
and who keep coming back.
In a certain sense, it can save the devs some trouble.
if you reuse characters you don't need as many of them.
that's why comic book writers came up with the idea to start with.
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Thank you, yes that is what I want, Reusable villains to fight.
And I apologize for the caps. Super villains in door missions is all i want.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
I'm not proposing a nemesis system. In the original post Cyclops asked for "super villains at level one" and that was understood by other posters to resemble ideas for a nemesis system.
We know the game will have signature supervillains. We know those signature supervillains will appear in missions from time to time.
I'm not quite sure what Cyclops genuine concerns are nor am I clear on what he means by "recurring" if he is not asking for a nemesis. If a single supervillain NPC appears in a level one mission and then reappears every fifth or sixth mission, how would that be any less repetitive than "cookie-cutter rent-a-mobs"? Would that not add up to a "cookie-cutter supervillain"?
The only way to avoid "cookie-cutter" is to hand the dough to the players and have them create their own cookies. Thus, others have concluded that even though he does not recognize it, the supervillain that Cyclops seeks can only be realized through the creation of some kind of nemesis system.
Now, again, I am not advocating for the creation and implementation of a nemesis system. Definitely not. If I wanted to face a nemesis over and over again, I would take advantage of the UGC tools to create a custom supervillain along with a series of custom missions that revealed the supervillain.
However, if for some reason they did the work, took the time, and implemented a nemesis system option as part of the character creation process, I would certainly experiment with it. How often I would use it would depend on how well it was implemented. If it was extremely well implemented, I would probably take advantage of it with somewhere between a third and half of the characters I created.
Which is also why I think it would be impractical. Implementation of a nemesis system option as part of character creation would amount to a huge supply side expense with very little consumer side return both financially and in terms of customer satisfaction.
I assume, even though it is presumptive of me, that what Cyclops is asking for is for the game's signature NPC villains to recognize his character starting right from the beginning of the game. While this could work easily in a single-player rpg, achieving this in a MMORPG would require very careful dialog creation with almost infinite internal string variables for the character's name, powers, preferred tactics, etc. It would also require the AI to evolve in response to the player character's development and tactical expertise (or lack thereof). It seems to me this might be even more difficult to implement than a nemesis system.
Therefore; my suggestion is take advantage of UGC tools to create a custom story around a custom arch enemy. This is something I will definitely do. The limit on the number of stories I will create will be whatever constraints are placed on my ability to store them.
If by some chance (again, I am NOT suggesting this, just daydreaming) buying the box version of the game included providing the tools to set up an open access private server with all custom content then I would probably never log onto the MWM servers at all. I'd set up my own little version of the world and invite my friends and family to join me there. Now that I think of it, that would probably please The Mighty Paladin, as well. He could set up his own version in his own way, without any leveling and hoards of street criminals to fight.
But then, would it still be a MMORPG if there were hundreds of private servers each offering different versions of the game?
Crazy. Don't know why I would up rambling on like this. Must be brain fog from jetlag.
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Thank you for taking the time to give your unfiltered (on the spot) reply. I appreciate it.
Sorry Greyhawk you're just not getting it.
We want a number of villains maybe 25 to 50 that get used in a lot of missions
the number can grow as the game develops
Not just my missions but everyones missions
The Riddler doesn't just exist for Batman he's part of the DC Universe.
What makes these villains different from cooky cutter bosses?
1) They're individual characters who stand out from the gang working for them Not part of the gang.
2) They might even have their own custom gangs that you never see on the street but you always see with them
3) They're programmed with those $ instructions to call us by name
4) They can remember the last time we saw them and say something about it.
5) who knows, maybe if they beat us they can put us in a death trap that we have to escape.
But you were right about how I'd love a complete offline game withe the potential to set up private servers and host games with my friends.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
On a related note, I will say that in CoX the tip missions were more fun when they had the colorful characters in them from the "Alignment System Players Drama Troop" like Flambeau and Doc Quantum.
Edit: Especially Doc Quantum. He was like the CoX equivalent of The Monarch from The Venture Bros.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I agree with Radiac (never saw that coming). The named NPC enemies in tip and safeguard/mayhem missions I always thought were superfun
Trust me when I say this, not as a dev, but from someone who analyzes this from both a narative and an MMO game design perspective (generally speaking not in particular to current designs in this game).
From a narative perspective dealing with the "big bad" from the outset of the story generally takes alot out of the climatic tension built up when we follow our hero throughout the story and they have those few encounters with the "big bad".
Imagine if Spider Man 1 had the King Pin in issue one.
Now take that idea and put it into an. MMO where the PC should have the opportunity for a net positive outcome to an encounter. A win if you will though winning does not have to equate with defeating the opponent. So at level 1 an early mission already has you dealing with a "Big bad" of the game world, and the pc needs a net positive outcome. Options are: pc defeats big bad (defeat can be kill or subdue) or big bad gets a away (no matrer what circumstance the pc and big bad happen to be in at the cut off point for the get away to trigger).
Defeating big bad effectively deflates the sense of accomplishment if big bad must be designed to be encountered multiple times. Not to mention the difficulty of designing a system to impart the previous encounted results to properly connect with a more recent encounter. And from a sychological perspective if big bad was beaten at level 1 and managed a come back the narative must take into account the fact that big bad at level 1 is involved with the continued story path the pc is involved with at pevel. 10, 20, or higher. This would certainly be possible in linear designs of single player games but much more difficult in an MMO.
Then there is the construct of the big bad design for whatit was capable of at level 1 and at higher levels also merging with the story showing why big bad has changed / gotten more / gotten better. And at each stage of development the big bad has pose a challenge to the pc so that the gameplay yields a satisfactory result.
Now this is not to say that big bad is only meant to be encountered one time and be done with forever on an MMO. When done properly there is a build up of the reveal to the encounter and the later story involving newer encounters with big bad are preceeded by another build up (even when its a surprise reveal the narative should have a flow that builds a sense of something this way comes for the player).
Dev hat on:
With the inclusion of our desicion trees afrdcting alignment it could be difficult to weave a larger narative that involves the return of big bad that takes into account evey possible decison offered to the player. Certainly it is possible to create a tag for each possible decision that hooks into the paths that follow each branch in order to account for what the player did to big bad earlier. But there are only so many tomes you canget away with bringing back from the dead if the choice was "kill big bad".
The possibility that kiilong big bad removing him from the story altogether can exist where if he was arrested he may pop back up in a branch the kill option didn't provide. And the kill option could provide a branch the arrest option didn't.
Thise problems so far as narative of story and branches based of decisions are in our Comp teams hands. I'm fairly certain we will see examples of this type of story at some point in the game. I'm also fairly certain we won't have recurring big bad encounter occuring from the outset of play through multiple levels that is a standard part of the stories and not part of a nemesis like system.
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Ok. Just to be clear he doesn't seem to want a Nemesis.
I thInk what the OP is looking for is random missions to include a super villian. I'm sure Doctor Nefario has lots of minions to do his bidding but I am equally sure occasionally he just wants to get his hands dirty and watch the warehouse shipment be moved.
Not really the end of any arc just a random event.
Hi. I'm Hope.
We have plenty of villains. You won't be stuck fighting generic goons all the time.
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Sorry Tannim but you're just wrong.
I refuse to see my character's whole career as one story.
That will inevitably make it a long and boring story with a lot of parts that don't really contribute to the whole.
Kind of, like "Lord of the Rings". (Oh, how I hated reading that).
That's part of why I hate levels and the concept of endgame.
Every adventure is a new issue of my comic that's how I've always seen it,
and I don't want them to build up to anything
Each adventure must stand alone
It diminishes the value of each adventure if they're part of some whole rather than each standing alone.
Particularly since whatever "endgame" you might have in mind for me can't have any meaning unless I stop playing.
We want ALL of our adventures to be exciting and interesting.
And We're not asking for the Kingpin in issue one,
(though that wouldn't bother me at all)
were asking for a gallery of recurring villains like:
The Green Goblin, The Vulture, The Scorpion, The Rhino, Vermin, The Shocker etc...
And why would it bother me if my first villain was the Kingpin, and I saw him again several adventures later ?
I'd be totally cool with it, as long as each story made sense.
Luke Skywalker saw Darth Vader on his first adventure.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
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hmmm... for me what you described fits nicely into a Task Force of sorts. Or a special Arc I made. :D
Luke... well, maybe not a great example.. because in the movies they never show how Obi took Allot of time to train him.
But Karate Kid DID show the training part, So much so, its was boringly Obvious after the 1st one. :P
Please explain why you think Luke Skywalker is a bad example and Karate Kid is a good one.
Star wars is an action adventure
Karate Kid is about training and growing
I know which one I'm looking for in a game
and I definitely do not want to see karate kid type stories.
Training is part of the origin story
that means it's in your background
It should NOT be part of the adventure.
Even the constant training that heroes do throughout their careers is something that happens between adventures.
If it's ever the actual adventure then something has gone terribly wrong.
I don't want to see that kind of stuff it's boring.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Tannim, I think what Cyclops and Paladin are asking for (correct me if I'm wrong, guys) is not so much the Big Bad at level 1, but recurring signature characters that are more than just random mobs. Kinda like (as Radiac mentioned) the sig chars you'd see every now and then in CoX, like Flambeaux and Doc Q. Or even the ones in the mayhem/safeguard missions and alignment missions. They were never as 'big' as Recluse or States, but they were individuals you could recognise.
To me, that "Oh, it's YOU again...!" moment is a significant part of the comic genre. I have to say I would like to see that. I'd also like a nemesis system, but I can see the difference: they're not asking for an opponent tailored to your character, just interesting individuals to encounter from time to time. (I'd like to see this for allies as well, like Faultline and Fusionette.)
Also, since they are just Medium Bads, they can level along with you, for the same reasons your character is levelling.
Spurn all ye kindle.
YES! This is what I want.
I'm not asking for the end game at level one. But Spiderman did get to fight a super villain in his first issue.
Defeated villains are not killed, they go to jail and can escape for the 2nd or 3rd part of a story arc. (the escape is just off screen.)
So its not a nemesis, its not the big bad....it's just a comic book story for a comic book hero.
We didn't have to wait for 15 issues for Spidey to fight his first super villain.
Door missions are made for stuff like this.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
Umm.. maybe in Comics.. but this is much Closer to the Movie/TV medium. So we all Expect it to be a bit more like that. At least i do. :P
Come on Izzy you can do better than that.
And another thing
as Cinnder and Cyclops pointed out above, we're not wanting to take on the ultimate villains right away.
Darth Vader wasn't the Ultimate villain the Emperor was.
And Kingpin wasn't always an Ultimate villain he just eventually became one.
(Maybe one of our signature villains can become an ultimate villain by the time we reach 50th level)
As much as I hate it with every fiber of my being, I know this is a leveling system
As such you save ultimate bad guys for later.
I get that
But to me that means bad guys like:
Dracula, Doctor Doom, Galactus, Ming the Merciless, The Red Skull, Darkseid, Brainiac, Ares, Hades
Hela, Loki, The Skrull Empire, The Kree Empire etc....
and also groups like The Fearsome 5, The Fatal 5, The Legion of Doom,
The Crushers (from the villains & Vigilantes adventure module, Crisis at Crusader Citadel)
Here take a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_villainous_teams_and_groups
This is really really important because teams of villains that we've faced individually
are the most common and most comic book way to up the anti.
Just look at the Adam West Batman movie. (If you didn't like it you suck)
(so I'll be posting something about this on the endgame thread).
And weather we've seen them before or not they help build a universe
and they're Absolutely the most common ways for a GM in a pen and paper game to challenge a group of heroes.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Please stop using "we". You don't speak for everyone. You certainly don't speak for me.
I do want a long narrative that builds to a crescendo which reveals yet another long narrative. The greater story is what keeps me moving from one mission to the next.
If you don't, that's fine, but don't assume everyone agrees with you.
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I will continue to say we as long as I believe someone else is on my side
If you're not then you're not part of that we and it's none of your business.
Where do you get the ridiculous notion that we must mean everyone?
If it did, no one could ever say we.
Also if I thought everyone here agreed with me I wouldn't bother posting at all
because it's already going to be that way.
You abuse the language your way and leave me to abuse it mine.
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Maybe i draw parallels between decent storytelling and developing my in game character.
I dont normally create my in game character always knowing everything about him/her.
I probably equate Leveling Up my ingame character as a form of Character Growth of sorts.
These are my own perceptions, might not reflect how others perceive the leveling mechanic.
I think of myself as a hard worker, and like to work hard to get where i want to be. So, its very difficult
for me to like heroes (on a personal level, to relate) that sorta Win the Lotto and get powers and know exactly how to use them without putting Effort to train.
Granted, its very boring to watch someone train day in and day out, and not everyone does that, only the Exceptional people have the mental fortitude to do that, and thats very admirable to some, me in particular.
I plan to create many many ALT's. :)
You on the other hand, might want to stick to just one or two, since you dont really enjoy the Training portion of the game.
But I feel, you'll paint yourself into a corner if you try to just stick to One or two Main characters.
You should let your imagination run wild and come up with many more characters in-game.
You might find it to be just as fun, if not more so. :)
Actually I tend to make a lot of characters.
I would ask you to check out my book Knights of Saint George but it's not free
and I cant upload it to this site.
Since I like you, if you send me your e-mail address in a private message
I will sent you a PDF free, just for fun.
I believe in working hard to get what I want
but that's a normal life not an adventure
Even if it prepares us for the adventure.
I'm just not interested in watching that process take place.
I assume it happens before the story starts and continues between stories.
That's why the X-men have a danger room
and we often see them in it
but we never see a whole story set there.
Melodrama means emphasizing action over character development
It doesn't mean characters don't develope
just that that's not what the story is about.
How many war movies show basic training?
Some do I know.
"Full Metal Jacket" is my favorite and the most famous of this type
but most of them either speed through that part or skip it entirely to get to the story
A lot only show it in flashbacks, and only when it's relevant to the present scene.
Often a character's training is all reduced to a list of his qualifications being read.
That's how I like it.
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I guess it depends on the storytelling. Rocky had that training feel.. but it works. :)
Rocky was NOT an action adventure.
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I've said it is possible to do this and even expected that something along these lines may occur on occaison.
There is one major difference, some players may not have a recurring character - because there will be choices in this game and sometimes choices have permanent consequences. Not everyone is going to be arresting other people.
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Thanks,
I'm fine with that. I don't need a recurring character. I just want a comic book experience. Super heroes need to fight super villains. Nuf said.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
Yay Tannim
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Hmmm ... A villain character named themightypaladin's language. That could be fun ... Like smeegul ... My precious!
But how are the supervillains, as you describe their usage in missions, differ from the nemesis system?
I understand that instead of one specific villain tailored to your hero you want to have a handful of them any one of which may randomly show up in your regular mission. But that would be no different from having the nemesis of other players showing up in your missions too?
Also, how would that be different at the story arc boss that you would encounter at the end of just about any four or five mission arc in CoH? Keep in mind that at level 1, where you say you want to be able to encounter a supervillain, you have two powers, none of your signature ones and relative powerlevels of the various archetypes all over the place. You would be hard pressed to deal with a lieutenant, never mind a mook boss (and just forget about story arc bosses, elite bosses, arch villains and supervillains). In fact at that early level you would be carefully picking your battles because if you pull three instead of two (or two instead of one if you have a low defense archetype) you'll faceplant.
CoH didn't throw you at a story boss until the end of your first origin arc, or at around level 7 or 8, which was when your powers were (just) rounded out enough that you could deal with them regardless of yor archetype.
I'm not saying it isn't fun, or at the very least interesting, to encounter iconic enemies throughout the leveling experience, and not just at the last 5 levels, but there are some pretty severe practical limitations in how far you can go with it.
The 'Boss' could be a uniquely named and costumed lieutenant. Maybe a little harder than a normal one. And there could be other factors involved that help make a boss more managable for a level one character, like allies or temp powers. I am sure it can be done and done in a way that it is fun.
Heck, I wouldn't mind running into a random high rank villain while running door missions. Surprise! You'd never get bored running regular missions. You might need rezzed though...;)
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...anything that makes it easier for me to gain the Wet TP Badgie I am all for...bring on the supervillains in door missions!
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
To me part of the problem of this thread was the term "super villain" used in the OP.
To most people that means the baddest of the bad. The most powerful of all villains. Not just a villain but a SUPER villain!!!
This was then later clarified to not mean the Epic bad person, just a not a meathead in a hockey mask, which reset the whole tone of the suggestion/request.
Also if this were to be implemented and I chose to play a villain and decided the KILL option when I defeat Super Hero X how can he come back from a story perspective?
This ties into how the game explains US as players coming back from the dead. Do we have a Rikti Tech rez device like in CoH? Some kind of Magic, Science, Tech, Mutant, Natural thingy that we all get given by the NSO (National Supers Organisation) that is 100% neutral in Good vs Bad? Cause you all just KNOW that someone will say my magic character doesn't want any stupid Tech Gadget. Also what about those Supers that fly under the NSO's radar as a truly hidden Super?
Is it part of the cosmic fluff that all Supers have the same inherent power of Hospital Rez?
Are we going to ignore this and just say "Its up to you how to explain coming back to life and the same can be said for Super enemies (hero and villain)"?
Also TMP I would argue your point on wanting each adventure to be independent from an overall "Main Quest". In my opinion an overall story that includes my character from day1/level 1 up to the end where I defeat the Main Bad/Good Super, with random side quests/one off missions throughout the journey, is much more enjoyable than just doing random radio/newpaper missions for ever and ever, never making a large impact on the world. Personal opinion both ways.
Most people know the kind of game you want but it continues to look like CoT will not be what you want it to be. If you don't want to follow the Main Quest story line then don't. Ignore the quests with the star in front of the name (or however CoT indicates a story quest) and just do the side/random missions. This way you get what you want, and anyone else with the same desire and those that want to do a Main Story Quest can also do it.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
As for the Kill option: this is a comic adventure, all deaths are Marvel deaths. You just thought he was dead, but Swansong got to him before he kicked the bucket. Its the comics.
OK. I'm not saying EVERY door mission has to have a costumed villain. But a decent amount should.
Lets say you are working on a story arc vs some cybergang. You've been cleaning their clocks and now its the last mission, they are close to their goal. The gang is going to want insurance that you won't stop them this time. So they hire a mutant Boss and his mutant Lt, Velvet Viper and Red Racer. Super villains. right there. boom bang bada boom.
What today is a low level Lt, is tomorrow a boss. Razorback's back and he's tougher than ever!
and for the record I did fight 1st level bosses in CoH. They spawned with street gangs (it wasn't in Atlas park, it was in the other starting zone they got rid off near the end). he spawned with the zombie guys...dang...have i forgotten so much from the game I loved?
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
Again terminology.
Boss <> Super Villain
Yes Bosses should be available in any/all missions, inc street sweeping.
Villains yes with a lower chance (maybe 10%?)
Super Villains not unless you have the setting to "Allow Super Hero\Villain's when Solo" or "Allow Super Hero\Villain's in normal missions" set to yes.
Why?
When I'm running around on my Support based Hero solo or with a friend at level 6 do I really think we can defeat a level 6 Super Villain? Probably not which will end in a mission fail, or the Super Villain walking away laughing after defeating me 5 times so I can then finish the mission. What the Super Villain wipes the floor with my rag dolled body 5 times, gives up in hysterics and I then get to foil his gangs plans? Or is it that some missions will never be able to be completed when the SV spawns. So I have to do them again (will we be able to repeat missions if we fail?). How does that work with the Story? Ohh damn it the death ray to destroy the world wasn't itself destroyed in time. Ohh lucky me they forgot the 15,000 AA batteries so I get another shot. Bugger me SV AGAIN!! Fail.
Ohh this time they didn't take the lens cap off to target the device. NOW I can stop them.
Using CoH as a reference there were not too many builds that could take on an AV solo or duo unless the builds were fine-tuned with serious IO/Purple investment. There was a reason almost all AV fights were TF/SF with teaming requirements
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
Well if two heroes cannot defeat a single boss, GROUP WITH FRIENDS.
Thats what I did.
Low damage support types are made for groups not solo.
Further there was a guy in Atlas Park who could make missions tougher or...easier.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
I agreed that Boss rank enemies should be in missions regularly. That wasn't my point. My point was about 'Super Villains' (top rank foes) being in normal missions.
Also CoT has stated that all Classifications are being designed to be able to solo most content.
Support class solo a Boss = should be doable.
ANY class solo a Super Villain = unlikely.
So to confirm your request is NOT to have 'Super Villains' as random encounters in missions, but 'named bosses'?
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
I have to disagree with equating "supervillain" to some special boss type. It's just a villain with super powers. A level 1 PC in CoV was still a supervillain. I think it's clear that the term is meant here to indicate a recurring named signature character, regardless of level or difficulty. E.g. Safeguard missions always had a supervillain leading the heist, even in Atlas Park at levels 5-10.
Spurn all ye kindle.
OK, so whats the problem?
All I want are 25 to 30 super villains useable for missions and story arcs. Depending on your choices you could encounter them once or multiple times.
Super Heroes encountering Super villains ought not to be a rare thing.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
Cyclops, I think the problem is that there was an enemy rank in City of Heroes: Arch- Villain. And they were far above the rank of 'Elite- Boss'. We are not sure if you just want named reacurring NPCs with super powers or something as man and powerful as an Arch- Villain, that could easily wipe out a whole group.
There is a difference between a Supervillain and an Arch Villain.
Any villain that the police can't handle is a super villain
An Arch Villain is a legendary figure.
If he isn't super tough himself, the Arch villain will have an organization that makes it a really long process to get to him.
The Dungeon Bosses in Zelda could be Supervillains
(if they ever left their dungeons and did anything)
But Gannon is an Arch Villain
Paladin was made to fight super villains he's only seen one Arch Villain ever.
Most Superheroes are a lot like that.
They've seen a few Arch villains but they mostly fight regular guys and super villains.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Maybe that is the confusion.
I don't want an "Arch Villain" in a door mission.
I just want a guy with powers, a mask and a cape I can beat up. Just a boss.
It doesn't have to be EVERY door mission. Just enough where you can get a reasonable chance to meed a super villain.
I don't think that is too much to ask for.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
Frostfire to the Rescue! ;)
Frostfire was OK but it took so long to get to him
and you probably couldn't beat him solo
unless you were too high level for the mission
So he's really more of am Arch Villain for lowbies.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Frostfire, brings back memories. Starts mission, *five hours later*
That mission was almost as tedious as the Respec Trial lol
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Frostfire depended greatly on the character. I had some that could solo him at the mission level and I had some that needed help even when I had a couple extra level on him. He was an Elite Boss, as I recall.
First time I ran the Frostfire mission, my friends and I spent 20 minutes just playing on the ice ramps before moving on. :)
First time I ran the Frostfire mission it was a complete team wipe. That was probably one of the things that discouraged me from playing CoH in the early Issues. From the second time on every run was successful. My Dual Blades/Willpower Scrapper soloed the mission in less time than some of the teams I'd been on.
I suppose it was one tiny demonstration of how my skill as a player improved over time.
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Champions Online gives you "Alert Missions" which equate to me with CoH "Radio" and Cov "Newspaper" missions. Very episodic, (and somewhat repetitive after a while) with a few minions and then a fairly straight-forward fight with a named character in a unique coatume. Eminently recyclable.
One thing I don't think has been suggested as a way of looking at this. In the interests of saving the Devs having to write a unique back story/mission arc/etc, I should think it would be possible to have the villains generated in a semi-procedural way just like the mission itself. Look at it like this, we live in a city crammed full of super-powered people. Not all of them are going to have what it takes to make headlines and get the big reputation. Second and third rate bad guys should come and go fairly regularly, right? They don't have to figure into the overall lore. They don't all have to be recurring, maybe after they're defeated they learn their lesson and decide to use their powers for good instead of evil!
I don't want to get into devising a whole system here, but I would think that a sort of name/costume generator could be linked to random generic powersets in such a way to render some quasi appropriate looking super character. Not particularly unique, maybe, but very obviously a Costumed Character as distinct from a minion/gang member. AND they don't pop up every time, maybe 1:4 missions.
WarBird, I have no problem with that at all.
I would prefer at least a few named villains we all could fight and swap stories about.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
That was my thinking, too. In fact, after I thought about it a little bit, the semi-randomness of a generator might make for some pretty humorous combinations. After all, not everyone who gets powers would be necessarily good at coming up with an appropriate or particularly creative name. The "Mystery Men" movie comes to mind. :)
Failing a satisfactory procedural method, with the necessary building of the generator, what if (and this could spark a whole new thread) the Character Creator allowed you to check a box that essentially said "You may use this Character as an NPC for randomly generated missions." Maybe you even get an itsy bitsy XP pop if your character gets randomly selected?
Yeah. Definitely starting a new thread...
+1 To this! Awesome idea.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMcQdRLgVpMwXi_3yTCN5iA/videos