We all know that they've been able to make fairly decent computer-based flight simulators for decades now. For the purposes of my post I'll call that "aeronautical flight" (because those simulations usually deal with how real life aircraft operate).

I think a key reason why they haven't implemented superhero flight in games like CoH exactly like aeronautic flight is because, unlike airplanes, a flying superhero can easily transition from moving around in the air down to landing and running around like a normal person on the ground. An airplane has to deal with the three dimensionality of roll, pitch and yaw whereas the typical movement scheme for a person running on the ground doesn't employ the same paradigm for movement. Movement on the ground is focused more on two dimensional movements (with occasional jumping up and down) and doesn't lend itself to physically orienting the human body roll, pitch and yaw-wise to achieve changes in direction.

So what we get in games like CoH is flight that more closely matches the paradigm of two dimensional ground movement than pure aeronautical flight. It's likely easier to implement superhero flight as "ground movement with an extra z-axis component" than to try to figure out how to make superheroes transition from pure "human-oriented" movement to pure "airplane-oriented" movement.

Now obviously it'd be cooler if CoT can make flying superheroes act more like airplanes while flying. Strictly speaking it'd probably be better if they could act more like helicopters (to account for the times when superheroes hover). But again I suspect the main sticking point is how to transition between ground and air dynamics. Maybe CoT will figure it out.

crowpeople wrote:

First time comment-er ( don't know why i did that)
Imagine this; you're walking down the street and you see a person about to jump off the bridge, You jump into the air "time to save the day" you scream off you go. When the time comes to catch the person from making his last mistake you realize its not all it seems. You see as you come over the top a thug waving a gun shooting. Seemingly try to "help" his victim off the roof. You decide to go right over his head come over the back and roll out of the flight to a take-down, knocking the thug out in 1 swoop.
When someone says more control i think of how that relates to my character's personality and what he like to do.
Now in that little story you can, with work, do that with other powers too like Super jump. " You leap to the top of the building and combat roll the person to safety."
At this point I think of why would the "hulk" do a fancy roll like that. he wouldn't. But a trim fast talking ladies man would, just to impress the girl.
Would I like to see more flight control along with the added control to super jump and speed, yes. But I would love to see it added as a combat control thing IE position or tactics. Or it could be added as a type of way to "flesh-out" your characters personality, which in some ways is cooler. Or as i'm thinking both.
Other games added types of flight like robot/armored suit flight. That is not what I'm talking about. that can be done with the look of the suit.
I'm talking about at the time you get your flight power. you could choose what personality of flight you're going for. Strong where you fly in and knock the person down with a shoulder check. Graceful where you fly in grabbing the attention of the thugs away from the victim. Or fancy you fly past them and grab them as there picked up by your wind current.
That is not what was talked about at the start of this thread though. So to go along with the theme or personal control over the character. i would say these "themes" could just be the way you fly in. where you decide to go straight for them or barrel roll between them and pick them up. Something all the flying people can do just depends on what the character likes to do.
...As you fly up to the top you see its not a suicide its a homicide. You think fast and with what your strong personality and body shows, you take charge and change from 180 to 90 degrees and head right for the now terrified thug. Taking him down and putting you between them and the was to be dead person.
My types are many but so are my thoughts.

Plot Twist: You actually just interrupted a film being shot and are being sued by the production company :P

Actually, the reason to implement these limitations is 2-fold in programming-land.

The first one is that when looking (3d world camera) directly up or directly down the code enters an infinite possibility or divide by 0 situation. This is why pitch usually stops orientation from ever doing a direct vertical up or down path. objects in the world can perform purely vertical movements, but the camera will be limited in how it can follow.

Second is that giving access to control roll gets very hard to return naturally to the ground-level's 2-dimensional vertical orientation. It can be solved, but it requires added code that may not be written right the first few times while the "feel" gets sorted out for comfortable realism. Also, in relation to problem 2, Valve actually cut a number of puzzles designed for Portal 2 because the puzzles were so disorienting it actually made the testers/players nauseous.

The preset animation sets (fairy flight, fire flight, robot flight, etc) may be sufficient, but that only puts icing on the classic yaw and limited-pitch control with locked-roll covered by animations (banking, etc.). I would anticipate (and personally hope) that more robust flight control will probably only exist if it's easy to harness within UE4.

I support the implementation of such a robust flight control, I'm just stating the biggest problems with implementing them to feel more superhero than pseudo-airplane.

summer-heat wrote:

The preset animation sets (fairy flight, fire flight, robot flight, etc) may be sufficient, but that only puts icing on the classic yaw and limited-pitch control with locked-roll covered by animations (banking, etc.). I would anticipate (and personally hope) that more robust flight control will probably only exist if it's easy to harness within UE4.
I support the implementation of such a robust flight control, I'm just stating the biggest problems with implementing them to feel more superhero than pseudo-airplane.

Yep the problems with "transition" between superhero flight versus pseudo-airplane was what I was trying to describe earlier in this thread.

Perhaps if they can adopt the "preset flight animation" concept maybe one of the themes could be "aeronautic flight" which would tackle trying to reconcile the problems with making a human body move like an airplane in flight. This way the players could choose to either have airplane-like (3d orientation) OR superhero-like (2d orientation) styles of flight

I too am talking about creating the ability to simulate these same controls but in a more conformed space. You press down the F9 key while in flight and it performs a barrel roll until you release it.

But I don't see the purpose of having aesthetic only feats like these so I gave them a value and price structure so the players who like them are encouraged to take them. I do this to avoid having "flying emotes".

Comic books are full of examples of flight being used as apart of combat.. so I wanted to incorporate what i've seen. When a character goes spinning it's usually to dodge things in the panel.. so increase the dodge. I rarely see the loop de loop anymore but back in my original X-Men days Angel used it to gain punch speed alot and later to shoot blades with his metal Archangel wings. So make his attacks more powerful.

Teleporting to one spot is easy enough.. point and go.. but we all know that scene when teleporters flash all around seemingly right after one another.

I am just translating what I see in ways I think players would want to use them without actually requiring the player to perform every piece of the actions described.

- -

Now the problem with providing price and value is you know you can't do that for only one travel power without doing it to the others.. so the next step is to translate how this same combat feature can translate to other travel powers.

JayBezz wrote:

I too am talking about creating the ability to simulate these same controls but in a more conformed space. You press doen wht F9 key while in flight and it performs a barrell roll.
But I don't see the purpose of having aesthetic only feats like these so I gave them a value and price structure so the players who like them are encouraged to take them. I do this to avoid having "flying emotes".
Comic books are full of examples of flight being used as apart of combat.. so I wanted to incorporate what i've seen. When a character goes spinning it's usually to dodge things in the panel.. so increase the dodge. I rarely see the loop de loop anymore but back in my original X-Men days Angel used it to gain punch speed alot and later to shoot blades with his metal Archangel wings.
- -
Now the problem with providing price and value is you know you can't do that for only one travel power without doing it to the others.. so the next step is to translate how this same combat feature can translate to other travel powers.

Yes again I realize the more general concept of "travel oriented combat powers" is a neat idea. It's neat enough that is has actually be suggested for years back on the old CoH forums if not here as well by now.

We weren't really just talking about "aesthetic flight" or even "flight emotes" per se - the OP started off by talking about making flight in this game be more like aeronautic flight in terms of its intrinsic 3D orientation and movement.

To be honest I don't really like the idea of locking flight maneuvers (like a barrel roll or loop-de-loop) to specific attack powers. If we're going to tackle the idea of making flight be more "aeronautical" in the game I don't want to have to choose the movements I want to do based on which specific powers/feats I have access to.

This is why the idea suggested earlier of "flight themes" seem superior. This would allow a player to specifically choose exactly how they want their overall version of fly to look without having to select options piecemeal based on which powers they selected.

Lothic wrote:

This is why the idea suggested earlier of "flight themes" seem superior. This would allow a player to specifically choose exactly how they want their overall version of fly to look without having to select options piecemeal based on which powers they selected.

"Flight themes" are alot of development to create a feature only flight users will experience. And from what I understood from Summer-Heat it came with some real obstacles.

What I try to do is get to the heart of what I hear the OP asking for.. the ability to perform these feats as they have not been available in any other game I've played.

Lothic wrote:

I don't want to have to choose the movements I want to do based on which specific powers/feats I have access to

I do not understand this statement. I don't see them as any further restricted than your choice of travel power.. a teleporter is not seeking flight but instead want their own animations to support how TELEPORT can "feel/look" as much as a superspeeders want the ability to do superspeed things like run up walls. People who run up walls don't need the aeronautical development we're talking about here.

Perhaps my suggestion isn't viable; i want to take more time to flesh it out in my head as to how it would work. My suggestion is definitely a compromise, but I do not find it inferior to creating a rather complex type of development only few will use (only fliers that choose this particular "theme" of flight).

If the suggestion is to have ALL flight have the controls as described in the OP then I will say I do not want that.

If the suggestion is to have a separate type of flight that has these features just for a subsect of flight users then I also do not want that.

If the suggestion is modified to incorporate a set of programming features usable by the full player base this is something I can support. And as the suggestion stands the only people who benefit from this particular feature are the subsect of flight users.

I tend to see things form the mile high view and come from the school of thought that all things are causationally affected. The scope of the suggestion was too small to be actionable so I expanded the scope.

I think all suggestions (whether in the OP or in the thread) are posted here to be critiqued, and perhaps bettered by the collective thought process. My critique does not invalidate the suggestion. So my argument boils down to "if you are not going to expand the scope then my response to the suggestion is negative" But instead of being accused of being "negative" I instead speak on what parameters make the suggestion more attractive to me aka "expand the scope".

- -

As you and I both seem to agree these actions are not for everyone. Some people do not want to perform barrel rolls or loop de loops. So then how do you provide a benefit that one sect of people finds value in? In my experience you have them buy it and give it benefit to make its price attractive. If I'm going to spend power points/enhancement points whatever on something I don't want it to be only for "aesthetic appeal" thus I gave it them combat implications.

If HOW the barrel rolls and loop de loops are more important than the ability to program around the feature efficiently then I don't think the feature proves its value. Any way you look at it they will be feats your avatar performs by you pressing function keys.. I just think programming it in this manner is much more efficient.

Not married to the idea, but I do like it better than the suggestion as posted. I am very open to other ideas on how to achieve what the OP is seeking while understand the limitations as explained by Summer-Heat and others.

OK from what i've gotten about what this started out as and what is has turned into.

First the problems im seeing with adding more control over flying.

As lore goes for making a person fly.It for the most part a pushing action. unlike jets are a pulling action.
1 to turn left and right you move your upper body the direction you want to go
2 the same would go for up and down.

To make a barrel role you would have to Twist your body.
now how do you make that happen in a game.

first the way flying is done so far.
mouse.
- does the up and down.
- it can do the turn left and right.
--- i will note here on turning the animation adds a tilt to the flight to make it look like you're turning
- the W key is used to move forward.
- S to stop and move backward
- the A and D keys used to strafe right and left.

And up to this point its the way we have seen flying done in CoH. (as far as i remember)

how do you do this in a keyboard and mouse only game.
1. well that can be done with Q and E
2. with faster mouse movement
3. holding shift to increase the speed of the turn cause a barrelroll affect. taking the tilt effect further to add a illusion of a roll.

now you want to do a loop de loop.
1. faster mouse movement.
--taking the mouse and moving it up then lifting the mouse and doing it again and again till the loop is made.
---this causes problems on its on.
2. holding shift down so the tilting of the character is increased while moving up to add the ability to go all the way around.
---this would add the effect that you're moving fast enough to complete the turn.

*with consoles its easier because they have a 2 speed function. if you move to a certain point the speed picks up, thus cause the loop or roll.
but this is bringing the problem back to programming, how much memory do you spend on changing the way people move when not touching the ground. *

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DCUO made cut this all down to a button press that made your hero loop de loop.
This looked really dumb.
1. you were not doing it. he was.
2. it was done in such a small area it didn't look feasible.
3. the camera nor the world never moved. so any illusion of freedom was lost.
4. these thing cause the power to be just a attacking power or some debuff and did nothing for the overall Feel of the game.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now what I was talking before about themes.

I would say the theme would be at the end of the flight when you're about to fight someone. and at the start when your taking back off.
Examples.

1. Show off. He waves before he takes off
and when he lands he stands in a pose " oh come on you're really going to try it"
2. Strong he lowers the body some before he takes off.
when he lands he stands straight up "Stop evil doer"
3. Fairly kinda glides off to the sunset when she takes off.
When when she lands she glides in or never really lands while whistling" oh hey i guess i fight you then"

None of which would change anything about speed or stats.
*also the voice would be cool. thats for a different thread as most of this has turned into*

Making the flight more of a "hey look what i can do" or "hey look what it looks like"
I would be happy landing in the midst of a pvp fight having the ground quake cause SuperStone has shone up. "*Crack!!*, OH !@$# SuperStone is here!"
--
other games like Champs online did "themes". what they did was change the pros and cons of what each type of flight did.
Like robot/armored flight had high top speed but took off slower. where others where different.

i didn't like this and it added less to the feel of flying and more to the "what would help me out more in combat"
--
To make themes work in this game I would say a couple options.
1. when you choose flight as your power you can change how it works for you hero.
-where it comes out.
-what it looks like (element or color)
2. or you have it chosen for you depending on what you have on.
- if you have robotic boots on it comes out the bottom.
- if you have a jet pack on it come out of that.
--this changes when you change your outfit.
3. chuck norris comes in and laughs at you before doing push ups.

--
other games like Champs online did "themes" to a degree. what they did was change the pros and cons of what each Type of flight did.
-Like robot/armored flight had high top speed but stayed in hover longer.
-man powered (superman) was quicker to come out of hover but slower top speed.

i didn't like this becuase it added less to the feel of flying and more to the "what would help me out more in combat"
--

i hope iv cleared things up i tend to type then think.

:) yay i tend to type and think so i broke thought a couple times.

*its been edited*
i had a couple thoughts going on in there. and i tend to type then think.

JayBezz wrote:

Some people do not want to perform barrel rolls or loop de loops.

Not really grasping this part. Some people don't want to turn left, but we plan on allowing all the travel powers to let you go left if you choose to, am I correct? I am just suggesting Flight allow a broader range of options, not that everyone should use them.

Surely it's possible to program a loop since flight simulators can do it. If this engine doesn't allow true vertical, is it possible to jump from 89 degrees climb to 91 degrees climb and skip over the forbidden 90 degrees? Things like that.

I suppose "it's not possible" and "it's not desirable" might have to be what we hear, but I had hoped the City of Titans project was a chance to move beyond "it's not possible," especially for something as universally associated with superheroes as true flight.

If what is being asked for is a purely aesthetic form of flight that affects all fliers then I have misinterpreted the desires of the op. Also, if this is what is being asked for I don't really support it because it doesn't provide enough benefit to the game design as a whole.

Sailboat wrote:

JayBezz wrote:
Some people do not want to perform barrel rolls or loop de loops.
Not really grasping this part. Some people don't want to turn left, but we plan on allowing all the travel powers to let you go left if you choose to, am I correct? I am just suggesting Flight allow a broader range of options, not that everyone should use them.

Many character concepts are not flashy. In the same way that one guy throws a punch like a gangster and another concept throws a punch like a ninja.

This type of programming if nothing else would require an entire seperate set of camera programming options. Then deciding when/how to toggle this.. It is more than its worth to create a flight simulator in the game. It would affect the control schema, the camera settings, the targeting mechanisms, the power animations and FX...

That's just alot of work for just one theme of flight.

Alternatively you can say .. ok do less work .. are you willing to have your powers shoot out of the back of your shoulder when your character is upside down instead of the eyes where they were originally programmed? It's the kind of proposition that just doesn't seem practical in the terms the OP defined it.

That being said there are more practical ways to implement these manuevers.. but when put in this, new context it seems "unfair" to give maneuvers only to flight users (some flight users.. all flight users.. doesn't really matter in the end its still just one portion of the population)

JayBezz wrote:

If what is being asked for is a purely aesthetic form of flight that affects all fliers then I have misinterpreted the desires of the op.

The OP talked about having a more aeronautical form of flight. If CoT developed a specific flight animation theme that would look and feel more like aeronautical flight then that would give players the OPTION to have it (or at least a reasonable compromise for it). If you didn't like the look of it you wouldn't have to use that theme. None of that required the leap to full blown travel oriented combat powers that would require complex balancing and assurances that they were all effectively equal to each other combat wise. Allowances for combat mechanics don't even need to be considered for this.

JayBezz wrote:

Also, if this is what is being asked for I don't really support it because it doesn't provide enough benefit to the game design as a whole.

For your benefit I already offered (in my last several posts in this thread) that the idea of "animation themes" for travel powers could be expanded to include ALL travel powers, not just flight. Since practically everyone uses some kind of travel power I think this idea (of having optional animation themes) to effectively customize your version of a travel power would have the potential to benefit practically everyone. You might as well try to claim that multiple costume items and auras didn't "provide enough benefit to the game" either.

Radiac wrote:

I think it would be kinda cool if there were different flight powers that had different "handling" styles. You could have a "biological wings" type deal that requires you to flap your wings to stay aloft (like Flappy Bird) or use the autorun key to set it on "autoflap", etc and then another one could be "jet powered flight" where you have something like a jetpack that has traditional airplane style controls and characteristics (banking to turn, etc). You could also get real crazy and come out with a helicopter style thing that has cyclic and collective style control system (the fact that it's difficult to master would make it more fun to try to use, I think). And you could have like "magical" flight where you're just standing on a magic carpet or cloud of smoke, or glowing disk or giant bat or whatever and you have like perfect control, except that you're always standing upright, like walking on air.
This would also open the door for ongoing new assets to be developed for it like different jetpacks, wing styles, smoke clouds, glowing disks, etc which you could pay for in the cash shop, or get as rewards, or get with in-game loot, etc.
I don't know how hard the control systems would be to implement, but I think this idea "has legs" so to speak.
If that could be done in a way that makes the mode of flight more "flavory" for the character concept, I think it would be awesome.

Just two quick comments:
1) No one said they'd have to implement all of these things instantaneously. Even if they were hard to create they could be released over the course of many years worth of updates.
2) No one said they couldn't come up with different styles of handling for the other travel powers as well.

JayBezz wrote:

There is a difference between customization development and game wide mechanic development.
Players have coalesced around the idea of customization but flight is a mechanic that is more universal as it will affect even the players who do not choose flight.
Choosing to have a purple bandana does not affect the all the players who do not choose a purple bandana.
Creating this is would be an endevor that would cross between dev systems (cameras, animations, fx and user interface in the least) and it [color=red]benefits only those who choose flight. Flight should be supported, but not SO much more-so than the other travel powers.[/color]
[color=red]Parity is important to me. This has been a theme of my posts that will likely go unchanged. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.[/color]

Do you even read and/or skim over what I say in my posts? I've said like 5 or 6 times already that the concept of "animation customization" for flight could easily spill over into having animation customization themes for ALL the travel powers.

Some basic programming questions..

1) When performing maneuvers would your map position change (distance to target, position for AoE etc)? If no then they are basically emotes (which I don't think people would be happy with .. I for one want to use maneuvers in combat). If yes they affect combat and need to be treated as such

2) Would the type of development being discussed here translate to other systems/concepts? For instance if I fall from a tall building or do a superleap do I have (or want to have) the same ability to use the types of camera controls available to fliers? And when i use superspeed (in DCUO) the horizon is fixed.. can I change my angle of running when using it (and if I can does it serve any benefit to do so?

3) Can you use powers while performing these maneuvers? If i'm mid barrel roll and shoot a power that emits from my chest/eyes.. is my character expected to turn around to shoot those powers?

4) Can I cancel the use of a maneuver mid- use? If i'm at the top tangent of a loop de loop and stop using the maneuver can I stop there or must i finish it? This is in tangent with question #1 because being able to quickly increase the delta of the Z axis (especially against ground players) is important.. not to mention players linking maneuvers.

When you realize the true programming implication of a "flight simulator" on the other systems you begin to understand that it affects a LOT of aspects of gameplay. And because I WANT travel powers and maneuvers to be usable in combat then these preclude my desire for a system that just doesn't fit the game we're in.

That said, Star Citizen will have an amazing simulator for dog-fighting. Seen some great demos.. but I don't even want to say the WORD vehicles. IF mounts were to come in a far and distant future then maybe they could introduce this type of programming that can then be translated for flight.

1. in a way they would change how far you are. just like how it is affected now if you fly or jump or run out of the range of the attacker.
-in a tab targeting system as long as you can see them and there in range your going to hit them. based on hit chance.
--this would mean that if you upside down or flying in circle you would still be in range and would still be combat range.
-- the only means of not getting attacked would be flying behind them which is part of the games now. people in pvp do that stuff all the time.
-in a flight simulator you dont hit them unless the missile hits them.
--so doing circles and such would be a very big help. if you don't get hit you don't die.
--then in if this game was Not a tab target system, you would have a big advantage in flight.
-- now this doesnt mean flying would be the best. just because you cant get hit doesn't me you can hit. has any thug be able to shoot the Flash flying or not.

2. that is a good question, I could say that would be an option. fix 3rd person would make you look in one direction so you could turn around and see whats going on. unfixed would cause you to not be able to see whats going on. Now this is all done right now in games by either holding down the right mouse button or not. When you walk around in games you are fixed when you turn around your fixed. if you want to turn around and not be fixed then you hold down the right mouse button. This would translate in flying and other travel powers to the same thing. the camera would make sure it can see you at all time no matter what axis you're moving on.

3. this leads to yes a problem for looks. If you target a person and you upside down you would be looking away from the person. so "you must be facing the target" would be what the game says. the person on the ground though would be able to shoot anything at him cause he is just looking up. And to note you don't have to (because i wouldnt) do these move at all. it would be a " oh hey look what i can do"

4. i would say what i was thinking was you don't "use" a maneuver. it would be you controlling where your hero goes not controlling what you hero does. so being in mid move you would be able to just move another way.

I would rather the first system, where you tab target the person and if you're in range you got it. mainly because i suck at fps and 3rd. and wow would that be a headache to program i mean id like to play the game at some point.

So yes have a flight simulator combat system wouldn't work in this CoH type game but thats not to say its not possible.

I think what your worried about is adding more of a realistic feel to flying will make it more fun and/or more beneficial in combat.
the first part Fun. I can say yes but thats true right now. flying is the one everyone can go to no matter what type of character you have and what your power set it. Most comic heros have flying. At times when invasions or some such big monster comes to town the comic people get broken down to flying or not. And to make this fair in game play you have to make the other choice many and with a fun all there own.
the second part making flying more beneficial in combat wont be an issue if the game is based on the same targeting system as CoH.
if im not looking at you i cant target you.
If i have you targeted I cant attack you unless i'm in range and i'm looking at you.
Both are issues of every travel power.
for the animation is involved i would say just having the look of the hero turning upside down is fine. you can see that happening when the character is rendered. The control would just be extended.
the limit were talking about being only able to point straight up would just cause for such a control extension not and overhaul.
The limit to tilting is different in a way.
the the hero flies to the left the animation makes it look like he is tilting it doesn't change anything about where he is looking ( as far as i know) So in this i can say making a tilt mechanic would be some programing adds. including controls and making that match up to a view the hero has. Other then that it wouldn't be much of a change.
Yes i can see how that would be mostly for flying unless you add it to super jumping and others. jumping up and doing a barrel roll or other weird moves would let the player have more control over the hero would be fun.

Now if you talking about adding themes to the travel power that would be just a pose thing. thats already been done. /dance and can be done for any travel power.

JayBezz wrote:

...with all systems you have to understand the tangible variables to understand the effects of changing any system. This is where all my talk of parity comes from.. I know that Flight is not the same as Superspeed, but I want to be sure that the two can both have viable advantages to be "fair" even when they cannot be "equal".

This sounds like you're saying "all powers that one might take use a slot, thus we ought to try to make every power about equal so they're all worthy of a slot" or something. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that's what it sounds like when I read it. In my opinion, this is impossible, and I would argue that it's actually undesirable.

First, powers of all kinds will synergize with some others, making for "c-c-c-comboes" which are hopefully fun and not too broken. So trying to power balance any power has to be done in context, which requires playtesting to get it right or to even have a chance of getting it close enough. In some cases having one power might even make certain others less useful (Reverse synergy? Is there a word for this?).

Second, I think each power ought to do what you'd expect it to do , within reason and within the limitations of programming, good taste, etc. Flight powers would be made MORE attractive and fun if some of the different styles I mentioned in my last post in this thread were done up right, even if not all of the different styles were equally useful. What makes them good is that they are realistic and fantastic in the right ways so as to make you feel like you're flying a jetpack or a magic carpet, etc. Maybe one is strictly more combat-effective than another. That's going to happen with different power options no matter what and people are going to opt for the power they like best no matter what.

Third, they can probably make up some of the parity differences in the gear slotting. Does helicopter flight suck, well then take it so you can put this awesome Proc in it and totally WIN. Your vertical travel will still be a pain in the axe, but you lose something in one area and gain something in another.

While this probably sounds like I'm advocating for totally useless powers and totally must-have powers to exist, what I really want is the powers to work as one might expect, given what they're designed to do. I also want them to be fun and at least somewhat optimizable in and of themselves. I mean, the 5th best travel power can still be fun, flavorful and tweakable to get the most out of it, even if the most isn't as much as you get out of the 4th best travel power. This will inevitably lead to some sub-par options. That doesn't bother me, personally, as long as the sub-par options work like the player expects them to, given what they're called and what they claim to be all about.

For example, Teleport in CoH wasn't the best travel power. You had to keep clicking or hitting the "T" button to activate it over and over and over to get from one place to another that way. Flight was better because you could just toggle it on and hit autorun then get up and get a drink and you were across the map by the time you got back. People said Superjump was the best combat travel power because it had the best combat characteristics and could be unlocked by taking other powers that were not totally useless like Hover and Recall Friend. They were all different, and Teleport was arguably the least attractive to the optimizer, but Teleport still felt like teleportation when you used it. It was what it said it was supposed to be. They could have given it better range or made it easier to get from place to place, and they didn't, but that was a choice they made as developers to do that. In other words, they INTENTIONALLY made Teleport like the worst travel power and it wasn't a problem because it did what it was expected to do. It made you disappear and then reappear someplace else. It was doing the job it was designed to do.

You're flying and decide to perform an aileron roll while trying to shoot a ranged power out of your hand/fist. Do you expect that while performing this maneuver your arm continues to "aim" toward the target you're shooting? Do you expect the FX trajectory to follow the end of the arm/hand/fist or have the fx shoot out of thin air? And what of what happens when you shoot from the chest? from the eyes?

You can make the argument for flight controls.. but unlike shooting from your hands while running or jumping where you can assure a forward animation trajectory and a vector trajectory based on the targeted player/object, you're asking that we be able to have animations to shoot while upside down, while facing backwards, etc. The development to shoot backwards, upside-down etc does little benefit to any player who doesn't use flight.

It qualifies as "overhauling systems" not because it would be creating a new version of flight, but because the animation and FX systems that are planned or being executed would need to be re-written for this behavior.

Comicsluvr wrote:

I can see all sorts of mini-games using Flight and for this reason alone I'd like better Flight controls.

QUIDDITCH!

(runs and hides)

Sailboat wrote:

Comicsluvr wrote:
I can see all sorts of mini-games using Flight and for this reason alone I'd like better Flight controls.

QUIDDITCH!
(runs and hides)

20 points to Slytherin.
And 10 points deducted from Gryffindor for not coming up with the idea first.

[img]http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110316031920/harrypotter/images/c/c1/Severus-snape1.jpg[/img]

Lothic wrote:

Not sure if you're aware but CoH tried to give us what they called "Fly Poses" which were basically a small collection of emotes that changed the way you looked while you were flying. But they were severely limited because they only really worked while you were flying in long straight lines - as soon as you tried to change directions the "emotes" would drop in favor of the standard animations.

Unreal calls these "additive animations" (as in, they are "added" on top of the base animation). Getting them right is by no means trivial, but it allows for things such as the following sequence:

[list]
[*]Hover in a 'neutral buoyancy' position.
[*]Accelerate forward, with the body shifting from the 'float' position to an 'arms forward' position based on speed.
[*]Arms move out to the sides as the starting part of a snap-roll.
[*]As the snap-roll completes, arms go forward again.
[*]At the end, use the 'reverse flight' control rather than just letting off the forward flight control, and get a 'skid' stop where the toon comes not just upright but leaning backward slightly, feet angled forward and arms out to the side in an "aerobraking" (wing) movement. Or, with wings, correctly 'cup' them for the same.
[*]/em wave causes the toon to raise one hand and wave -- without disrupting the 'hover' animation.
[/list]

Now, that said: there's a lot more work in making all of that work than even what it might seem like at first glance (and it seems like a healthy bunch of it even at a glance). We may not have anything that fancy by launch, or even several issues in, for all I know. But there is nothing at a *technical* level that prevents it, it is "just" a matter of time, effort, and skill (and a small lake is "just" a bit of water).

Similar things can apply to pretty much any other travel power, as well. Along with the potential for reactive costume pieces (though that gets at least a little trickier, but has to be addressed for other reasons). All sorts of nifty things, eventually, but getting the basics working comes first.