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Crafting?

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Lxndr
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Crafting?

It is no secret that when City of Heroes tried to bring in crafting, it negatively impacted gameplay.

What is City of Titans planning to do with crafting?

Radiac
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The OP is obviously trolling.

The OP is obviously trolling.

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islandtrevor72
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I'm not sure its trolling.

I'm not sure its trolling. Its subjective to be sure but don't think its trolling. The introduction of Inventions did change the game a fair amount and I can understand that someone would not like those changes. And as we all know its very hard for some people to see an opposing view, so I think the OP just figured there would be a lot of people in agreement with that opinion.

That said, I too am interested in the crafting of CoT. As I understand it there will be the ability to craft temp powers, augments and the like similar to CoH did. I am curious how this will be handled in CoT in regards to acquiring ingredients and blueprints. Also, how those crafted augments and powers will stack against other augments and powers. If costume crafting will be included? If there are any plans to control the sale of ingredients and blueprints or if the market will be unrestrained? And about a million other questions about crafting.

But I think its a bit early for any to really be answered in a meaningful way. Sadly Lxndr I think we will have to wait for some definitive answers on this one.

Empyrean
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Hmmmmm. It was a secret to

Hmmmmm. It was a secret to me.

CoH was my first game and I wasn't excited at all when their version of crafting arrived, but I ended up really enjoying the complexity it added to buildcraft. It wasn't perfect, and I think CoT can and will do better, but it was better than any other crafting I've experienced.

Almost everyone I met in the game was happily busy acquiring and crafting constantly, and most seemed to think the horizontal growth helped them to refine their concept and develop into truly heroic levels of power. Of course I'd hear people grumble once in a blue moon, but a few people always grumble about absolutely anything.

I really haven't much enjoyed the crafting in any game I've played since, so CoH got something at least mostly right.

And, if the OP is trolling, he picked the wrong forums. People are generally pretty calm and level-headed around here.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Tannim222
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I'd prefer more information

I'd prefer more information to adequately address the OP's concerns.
How did the old game's crafting negatively impact gameplay in your opinion?

Now from a hindsight is 2020 analytical point of view I can say that the late emergence of a player economy was negatively affected due a large portion of the player base were instantly wealthy. With insufficient economy sinks players could obtain and maintain a high degree of wealth with relative ease. And there were very little control mechanisms in place for the devs to help stabilize the economy.

Some players didn't like dealing with the auction house. Some didn't like it due to the system was designed to be a form of market pvp. Some didn't like it because they felt it affected their sense of immersion (super heroes don't go shopping is a basic statement provided among others).

What I an say is that we are introducing basic crafting early into the game. The game world economy will be set up to curb inflation as there will be multiple tools our dev team can use to keep the economy stable over time. (fluctuations are inevitable). And as plans currently exist, crafting will come in themes for customizing (various themed emotes, game world crafting tables, and eventually - hopefully - customized tables for personal lairs / bases).

There will be an auction house and one aspect that may remain is a system that allows for market pvp but also ease of use for the general player.
I can't provide actual details of the crafting system at this time other tan the general there will be basic crafting and later crafted sets offering unique bonuses.


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Minotaur
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One man's negative impact was

One man's negative impact was the thing that kept me in the game, without crafting I would not have logged the 20K+ hours I logged in CoH.

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Cold_Iron
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I was never really a fan of

I was never really a fan of crafting in CoH. The only thing I liked from it was temp powers. Being able to whip up a batch of anti-thing spray can be fun but the to me it felt like a late game only kind of thing as the difference in stats was minimal from what I remember.

Empyrean
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Cold_Iron wrote:
Cold_Iron wrote:

I was never really a fan of crafting in CoH. The only thing I liked from it was temp powers. Being able to whip up a batch of anti-thing spray can be fun but the to me it felt like a late game only kind of thing as the difference in stats was minimal from what I remember.

I don't remember the exact stat numbers any more, but I can tell you that little extra bit in the right places could make the difference between tough and unkillable, high damage and a god, or good support vs "never fear, I'm here."

The numbers may have looked minimal, but I can assure you if used properly the effect was not.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Greyhawk
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I love the crafting in CoX.

I love the crafting in CoX. When they started discussing it I was leery, and at first I opposed the auction house, but over time inventions and the auction became one of my favorite aspects of gameplay.

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Darth Fez
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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

The introduction of Inventions did change the game a fair amount and I can understand that someone would not like those changes.

Isn't this only true if one used the crafting / IO system? As far as I was aware, if one chose not to use IOs the game did not change at all. I'd say that the strongest knock-on effect the IO system had is that fewer people cared about Hami-Os.

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Redlynne
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The City of Heroes "crafting

The City of Heroes "crafting system" for IOs and Sets was ultimately founded on the notion that "two wrongs DO make a right" in that in order to create the necessary design space for Inventions to inhabit, the existing game balance needed to be WRECKED TWO YEARS in advance of Inventions actually getting published. It was a "one hand takes away long before the other hand gives back" sort of deal.

Even then, the Invention System wound up being a more complicated way of achieving the previous game balance. It took until Issue 9 to restore a semblance of the game balance lost after Issue 4 (or was it 5? 6?) ... TWO YEARS prior.

Let's also not forget that the Global Defense Nerf combined with Enhancement Dysfunction essentially took a wrecking ball to the future growth of City of Heroes. There's a REASON why Cryptic Studios could only afford *15* developers (the Fighting 15) working on the City of Heroes IP until NCSoft bought the IP, and that's because they put themselves into a position in which all they could do was maintenance.

Now, I'll admit, that the Invention System was complicated enough to try and manage that you really did need Mids' Hero Planner in order to make heads or tails of how it all fit together. But ultimately the effort managed to take the game from Square 1 back to Square 0 and then eventually forward to Square 1.1 ... not 2, only as far as 1.1 really. It was a tremendous amount of time and effort (and goodwill) wasted getting it into production, during which time the game languished and nearly died. This is hardly a story of a rousing success, but more a "there but for the grace of {insert Deity}" sort of cautionary tale for other developers to learn from.

There are essentially two reasons to develop a crafting system within a game. As a "sink" for in-game resources and as an alternative means/method of acquiring "stuff" to use. If the "stuff" you can get from the crafting system isn't competitive in some form or fashion, then no one will bother with the crafting system, because then it's JUST a sink. If the "stuff" you can get from the crafting system is better than any alternative, all of the alternatives to crafting will lose their value in response to the superiority of crafting. This isn't Rocket Surgery, it's simple path of least resistance to the greatest reward. It's min/max at best, and munchkinism at worst.

There are good and wise ways to implement a crafting system which will enrich a game and increase the number of activities that Players are motivated to "do" within a game. There are also a lot of BAD™ ways to implement a crafting system, which can impoverish a game in a huge variety of ways. The former is a LOT harder to achieve than the latter. Which type of crafting system you get for a game depends on a holistic understanding of the entire game and the motivations behind myriad decisions that Players will (potentially) make in interacting with any sort of crafting system. That's because there is the GAME as well as the META game to consider. This is a non-trivial task, and it's way too easy to get it wrong.

Whether a crafting system "works" or is otherwise "good" for a game depends almost entirely upon the context, both of the game and of the crafting system itself. Without DETAILS to make an informed decision/judgement, you're left with wishful thinking regarding vaporware. Hardly the sound foundation of good judgement.

There are "good crafting systems" possible out there. The problem is, they're outnumbered by all the BAD crafting system possibilities (ie. what else is new?). As a result, a crafting system is something that needs to be done RIGHT ... or ... NOT AT ALL, for the health and future of the game.

I'm not saying DON'T TRY here so much as warning, "Be careful what you wish for..."


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Follies
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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

The OP is obviously trolling.

I don't think that's a fair assessment of the post. I don't think anyone could possibly say for certain that this post was meant to be inflammatory, it may have been a strong opinion that the poster stated as fact. Which I myself find presumptuous but not necessarily troll like. If the OP is trolling they will probably be back but if not we'll likely not hear from them again.

I myself do not agree with the OP as I very much enjoyed the invention system in COX. I didn't care much for the temp powers but to each his/her own. I also found some of the enhancement sets worthless as many others did. I can justify this opinion by the fact that there were certain sets you couldn't pay someone on the market to take off your hands. Other than that, I was very pleased with the invention system as a whole.

I reserve the right to have an opinion. You reserve the right to not agree.

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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

I love the crafting in CoX. When they started discussing it I was leery, and at first I opposed the auction house, but over time inventions and the auction became one of my favorite aspects of gameplay.

Same here - I was extremely skeptical when it was announced, but it eventually grew on me. The main issue with the crafting system was the accompanying auction house - and the effect that "billionaire characters" had on it when it was released. As there will be crafting and an auction house at CoT's launch - that effect can be minimized from the start.