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classes and character slots

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Radiac
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classes and character slots

Let's say, when the game rolls out, they give everyone some number of character slots, and those slots can each contain one toon of any class that currently exists. Okay, then they roll out a new class later.

Most of the time people think of character slots and unlocks of classes as separate purchases. What if, based on the amount of money you want to pay, you could buy some/any/all of the following:

Full unlock of the new class in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.
Full unlock in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".
Unlock of the new class in one existing slot you have only, such that the affected slot is now the one and only slot you have that can contain the new class.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain anything, including the new class.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain only base classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can only contain the new class, NOT existing base classes.

Is this getting too detailed or overthinking things at all? Obviously the prices would be different for different things.

If you are in fact going to try to monetize new classes and or new power sets, it might be a good idea to give players some sort of "try out" that they can do, like maybe from the "pick your toon" login screen you can choose "try something out" and it puts you in the body of a class of your choice, alone, in an instanced zone with badguys to fight, like Outbreak, but not level 1. Maybe have a 30 min timer on all tryouts such that it kicks you back to the "pick your toon" screen after that. And maybe have a way to exit early if you want also.

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Interdictor
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Personally - I think you are

Personally - I think you are overthinking this WAY WAY too much and making things more complicated than they need to be. Just charge for the new class, charge for the new slot. No "tiered" character slots please - just keep it simple.

blacke4dawn
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That looks like a whole lot

That looks like a whole lot of extra complexity for very little (if any) benefit. The biggest change would be that MWM would have to treat each and every slot as a unique "item" instead of just a "simple number" for max characters. Add in the need for players to actively managed which class to use for which slot and I don't think it would be used that much outside of the full unlock options. There's also the notion of that if one doesn't plan ahead one can double of triple pay for "unlocks".

Also, there would need to be some "upgrade" option in that if you buy a slot for only a specific class you need the option to upgrade that slot alone to include the basic classes, and any other post-launch class on an individual basis. Consider that every post-launch class would need their own entry (and probably be in a bundle) the list of "choices" when buying a new slot would grow pretty big over time, and probably not give a very good impression.

Aegis
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This would vastly over

This would vastly over-complicate things. Creating such a system of full-access, semi-restricted, restricted, and whatever character slots is a whole lot of (IMO, needless) complexity that is likely to frustrate users for very little gain on MWM's part.

It's also important to keep appearances in mind, too. Imagine a new player opening up the cash shop for the first time, and while browsing, they come across the character slots section. Imagine their reaction to seeing that there are three different tiers of pricing for individual character slots. Imagine their reaction to seeing that there are three different tiers of pricing for AT/Powerset unlocks. What is their reaction going to be? Is it going to be "Wow, all these options will let me spend the exact amount of money I want to spend and get the best value for my dollar!" or will it be "Wow, these people really want to nickle-and-dime me to death, don't they? So much for spending any more money on this game!"

I'm not a marketing expert, but I'd be willing to hazard a guess that the reaction is more likely to be the latter, rather than the former.

It's best to keep it simple:

If I buy or otherwise gain access to a new class/AT/powerset/whatever, I should be able to use it in any of my character slots, whether they're part of the initial block, or any additional slots I've unlocked (cash purchase or otherwise).

If I buy a new character slot, I should be able to use any available classes/ATs/powersets/whatevers for any characters I create in that slot.

blacke4dawn
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Aegis wrote:
Aegis wrote:

It's also important to keep appearances in mind, too. Imagine a new player opening up the cash shop for the first time, and while browsing, they come across the character slots section. Imagine their reaction to seeing that there are three different tiers of pricing for individual character slots. Imagine their reaction to seeing that there are three different tiers of pricing for AT/Powerset unlocks. What is their reaction going to be? Is it going to be "Wow, all these options will let me spend the exact amount of money I want to spend and get the best value for my dollar!" or will it be "Wow, these people really want to nickle-and-dime me to death, don't they? So much for spending any more money on this game!"

To add to this.

Unless the basic package gets redefined when a class is released to include every previous one then the listing will not be limited to just 3 but it will grow with each new class released. Pretty sure it'll be "number of post-launch classes" + 2 in each of class and slot unlocks respectively.

Radiac
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Would having those other

Would having those other options make the "global class unlock for all slots" feel more valuable?

Would having the more limited options listed, for lower prices, allow the store to price in customers who were otherwise inclined not to buy the global class unlock?

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blacke4dawn
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The thing is that the actual

The thing is that the actual value of the global unlocks are dependent on how many slots/classes you already have unlocked. At a certain point it will become a no-brainer to go for the global ones since doing it per slot/class will cost you so much more, unless of course you adjust the price of them. If it's just matter of time before the global ones are the only ones used then what's the point in having the others since the system behind it still requires work in the form maintenance.

Also if we're taking this to its logical conclusion we'll end up with something like this a few years down the line (basing it on the likely future candidates from the Classification and Specification chart) , and to me that looks downright awful and would very likely scare away new customers. Unless of course the "basic" package expands to incorporate every existing one when a new one is launched.

Class unlock:
Full unlock of class A in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.
Full unlock of class B in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.
Full unlock of class C in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.
Full unlock of class D in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.
Full unlock of class E in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.
Full unlock of class F in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.
Full unlock of class G in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.
Full unlock of class H in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.
Full unlock of class I in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.
Full unlock of class J in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.

Full unlock all present melee classes in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.
Full unlock all present ranged classes in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.
Full unlock all present support classes in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.
Full unlock all present pet classes in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.
Full unlock all present tanking classes in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.
Full unlock all present control classes in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.

Full unlock all present and future melee classes in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.
Full unlock all present and future ranged classes in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.
Full unlock all present and future support classes in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.
Full unlock all present and future pet classes in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.
Full unlock all present and future tanking classes in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.
Full unlock all present and future control classes in all character slots you currently have, and all slots you might buy in the future.

Full unlock of class A in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".
Full unlock of class B in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".
Full unlock of class C in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".
Full unlock of class D in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".
Full unlock of class E in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".
Full unlock of class F in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".
Full unlock of class G in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".
Full unlock of class H in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".
Full unlock of class I in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".
Full unlock of class J in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".

Full unlock all present melee classes in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".
Full unlock all present ranged classes in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".
Full unlock all present support classes in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".
Full unlock all present pet classes in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".
Full unlock all present tanking classes in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".
Full unlock all present control classes in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".

Full unlock all present and future melee classes in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".
Full unlock all present and future ranged classes in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".
Full unlock all present and future support classes in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".
Full unlock all present and future pet classes in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".
Full unlock all present and future tanking classes in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".
Full unlock all present and future control classes in the slots you have now, future slots purchased can only contain the "base classes".

Unlock of class A in one single existing slot you have.
Unlock of class B in one single existing slot you have.
Unlock of class C in one single existing slot you have.
Unlock of class D in one single existing slot you have
Unlock of class E in one single existing slot you have.
Unlock of class F in one single existing slot you have.
Unlock of class G in one single existing slot you have.
Unlock of class H in one single existing slot you have.
Unlock of class I in one single existing slot you have.
Unlock of class J in one single existing slot you have.

Unlock all base classes in one single existing slot you have.
Unlock all present melee classes in one single existing slot you have.
Unlock all present ranged classes in one single existing slot you have.
Unlock all present support classes in one single existing slot you have.
Unlock all present pet classes in one single existing slot you have.
Unlock all present tanking classes in one single existing slot you have.
Unlock all present control classes in one single existing slot you have.

Unlock all present and future melee classes in one single existing slot you have.
Unlock all present and future ranged classes in one single existing slot you have.
Unlock all present and future support classes in one single existing slot you have.
Unlock all present and future pet classes in one single existing slot you have.
Unlock all present and future tanking classes in one single existing slot you have.
Unlock all present and future control classes in one single existing slot you have.

Character slot unlock:
Purchase of a new slot that can contain only base classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain any existing class.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain any class, present and future.

Purchase of a new slot that can contain any existing melee class.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain any existing ranged class.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain any existing support class.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain any existing pet class.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain any existing tanking class.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain any existing control class.

Purchase of a new slot that can contain any melee class, present and future.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain any ranged class, present and future.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain any support class, present and future.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain any pet class, present and future.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain any tanking class, present and future.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain any control class, present and future.

Purchase of a new slot that can contain base and any existing melee class.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain base and any existing ranged class.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain base and any existing support class.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain base and any existing pet class.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain base and any existing tanking class.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain base and any existing control class.

Purchase of a new slot that can contain base and any melee class, present and future.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain base and any ranged class, present and future.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain base and any support class, present and future.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain base and any pet class, present and future.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain base and any tanking class, present and future.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain base and any control class, present and future.

Purchase of a new slot that can contain basic classes and class A.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain basic classes and class B.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain basic classes and class C.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain basic classes and class D.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain basic classes and class E.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain basic classes and class F.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain basic classes and class G.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain basic classes and class H.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain basic classes and class I.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain basic classes and class J.

Purchase of a new slot that can contain basic classes and melee classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain basic classes and ranged classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain basic classes and support classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain basic classes and pet classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain basic classes and tanking classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can contain basic classes and control classes.

Purchase of a new slot that can only contain class A, NOT existing base classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can only contain class B, NOT existing base classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can only contain class C, NOT existing base classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can only contain class D, NOT existing base classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can only contain class E, NOT existing base classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can only contain class F, NOT existing base classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can only contain class G, NOT existing base classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can only contain class H, NOT existing base classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can only contain class I, NOT existing base classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can only contain class J, NOT existing base classes.

Purchase of a new slot that can only contain present melee classes, NOT existing base classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can only contain present ranged classes, NOT existing base classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can only contain present support classes, NOT existing base classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can only contain present pet classes, NOT existing base classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can only contain present tanking classes, NOT existing base classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can only contain present control classes, NOT existing base classes.

Purchase of a new slot that can only contain present and future melee classes, NOT existing base classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can only contain present and future ranged classes, NOT existing base classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can only contain present and future support classes, NOT existing base classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can only contain present and future pet classes, NOT existing base classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can only contain present and future tanking classes, NOT existing base classes.
Purchase of a new slot that can only contain present and future control classes, NOT existing base classes.

Fireheart
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Good Gods! No lockouts on

Good Gods! No lockouts on what kind of character can be created in a given slot!

Character Classes are all equivalent, Blasters aren't better than Masterminds, or vice-versa! No 'gold' or 'silver' or 'copper' classes or characters!

Don't be silly!

Be Well!
Fireheart

Radiac
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I'm mostly interested in

I'm mostly interested in giving people a few different options to compare each other to, so as to get the customer to arrive at the conclusion that one of them is the best deal, or a good bargain, etc. Unfortunately, you can't just sell an unlock of the new class (global unlock) as the only object of it's kind on the list and then make it look like a good deal compared to something else if there literally is nothing else there to compare it to.

If you give people a menu of like 4 options, then one will be the cheapest, and probably least valuable, and another one will be the most expensive, but possibly viewed as the most discounted "save by buying in bulk purchase" on the list.

If you only give people the option of "Buy X or don't" your proposition is yes or no on a specific thing, and no is the cheaper of the two options. The yes option there doesn't sound or look any more valuable than anything else, there's no way to label it as "on sale" unless you change the price from time to time, and you get no discount for buying a lot of it all at once.

If the very cheapest option is still extremely limited in what you get for it, it's still a purchase and it might be viewed as "way better than nothing, given the really low cost", then if you have other, improved options for higher prices, with apparent discounts based on the price of the first thing, you get people, in their heads, creeping up to the global unlock as their choice almost just for the perceived value of the purchase itself compared to other options.

As Marge Simpson once said while shopping at the Mega-Low Mart "Oooooh! That's a good price on a 50lb bag of nutmeg...."

In a more real world example, my current computer is a gaming rig I bought from IBuyPower in late 2010 using their "custom configurator" software. I ended up buying not one by two hard drives (in a RAID), and a sound card that I absolutely do not need, plus an interface thingy on the front that can have any number of different memory chips plugged into it, all of which are technology I do not own, but hey, it's nice to have the ports to plug them into if I ever get any of that stuff. I think digital cameras use them maybe? Anyway my point is, compared to the already outrageous cost of the rig itself, after the CPU, video card, motherboard, case, power supply, and so forth were decided upon, the extra $100 here and there for some of this stuff seemed cheap by comparison. In all cases there were multiple models of hard drive, solid state drive, video card, CPU, etc to choose from. It was never "do you want this one thing or not?". Thing's that WERE "yes/no?" propositions like that I generally didn't buy.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Radiac
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Good Gods! No lockouts on what kind of character can be created in a given slot!
Character Classes are all equivalent, Blasters aren't better than Masterminds, or vice-versa! No 'gold' or 'silver' or 'copper' classes or characters!
Don't be silly!
Be Well!
Fireheart

I am completely serious when I say I myself might buy limited character slots, depending on the price structure. Are you going to put a mastermind in every character slot AND also put a blaster in those same slots, at the same time, ever? That's not even possible.

To put it another way, if you could get the Mastermind class CHEAPER by agreeing to only make ONE, at least for now, would you do that? Personally I can only play one toon at a time, so I'd definitely think about it. It's all a matter of how much the one option costs relative to the other. So please, for my sake, don't demand that they only offer global class unlocks and not per-slot ones until you see the prices, because I think I might actually go for the thing you don't want. Different strokes for different folks.

Also, in CoX, it wasn't like you could move characters around from one slot to another anyway, so once my main toon got created in a slot, it may as well have been a "Radiac only" slot forever at that point. How often did you delete one toon to make room for a completely different class toon? What's the point of having complete freedom to put any toon in EVERY slot if you're most likely going to use a specific slot for a specific toon in each case anyway?

Maybe having one or two empty "anything goes" slots available at all times is nice. It keeps your options open, I guess. But once you're in the game for a while and understand how it works, buying a bunch of extra "anything you want" slots is not necessary. You're better off having zero unused slots until you decide you want to make a new toon, at which point the best option might be just getting the cheapest slot that can hold the class of toon you want to make at that time. And when a new class rolls out, I see no point at all in making ALL of my already-full existing slots capable of holding a new class of toon that they will NEVER have to hold, because those slot are already occupied by toons I like and am going to keep for the foreseeable future.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Aegis
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Ok, I'll be direct.

Ok, I'll be direct.

This is not a good idea. It's needlessly complicated for little to no return, risks alienating customers, risks damaging the brand, and isn't conducive to the the kind of game CoT is shaping up to be.

#1 is pretty self-explanatory, so I'll focus on the rest.

As I've mentioned before, this risks alienating customers because people are far more likely to perceive this as a boldfaced attempt to wring money out of them, rather than an offering of economical options.

As for damaging the brand, imagine when word inevitably starts circulating that the CoT cash store actually tries to get you to pay more than once for the same unlock. Imagine when someone unknowingly buys the "bronze" class unlock or whatever it ends up being called, thinking they bought the full unlock. What happens when they attempt to create another of that class, only to be prompted to spend stars again? Trust me, they won't care about "Well, you didn't read the fine print." when they tell their friends about what a racket the CoT cash shop is.

Part of the fun of CoH to myself and many of my friends (if I may be so bold as to speak for them) was being able to take a hot-off-the-proverbial-presses character concept, log in, go straight into the character creator, turn that idea into an actual character, and then give that character a try. This system would potentially create very obtrusive hurdles in the this process. Imagine being told that your open character slot isn't a "Gold" character slot, so you can't create that class in that slot, and that to upgrade that slot from a "silver" or "bronze" to a "gold", you need to spend 1000 stars, but you only have 800 stars in your wallet, would you like to purchase some more? Personally, I would find that incredibly frustrating, and frankly a little insulting that a company would have the temerity to gouge me like that.

In addition, part of the appeal of a system like CoX's, or what CoT promises is that two characters of the same AT/class can play very differently based on their powersets. For example, as someone with a relatively small character roster, I had two Masterminds(Robos/Traps, Mercs/Pain, for those who care) on my regular roster, and they both played differently. I had three Corruptors(Ice/Storm, DP/Time, and a third I no longer recall), and they all played differently. I created the second Mastermind and the other two Corruptors after having leveled the first Mastermind and Corruptor to level 40. How many times would I potentially need to visit the cash shop under your model in order to roll those three additional characters? Would I even bother trying Mastermind or Corruptor in the the first place?

I understand that you're enthusiastic for CoT, and that you desperately want the game to be a financial success so that MWM can support itself. But, and this is an important 'but', running the risk of alienating customers and damaging the brand for the sake of trying to wring another 5% out of the playerbase is not the way to do it.

Radiac
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You're telling me that if the

You're telling me that if the "global new class unlock" costs $5 worth of Stars and the "one slot only" unlock costs, say, $0.50 worth, you're going to complain about the FIFTY CENT option as an attempt at price gouging? Further, you'd much prefer JUST offering the $5 option and nothing else, because fewer options is better how? I don't think people will be as offended by the cheaper options as you claim. I know I wouldn't. For one thing, people can presumably grind and get IGC and use it and buy Stars on the auction house, and I dare say they could most likely scrape together fifty cents worth without too much trouble for as often as a new class comes out. That's technically not even spending money at all if you get the Stars that way, at least not spending your own money.

I also reject, outright, your notion that people will be hoodwinked into "not reading the fine print" when the items being offered are very clearly marked, in the LARGE print of the object's very name, as being what they are. Also, I think you would make the different slots LOOK different in the cash shop (limited slots are red, etc) and also in the in the character selection screen (still red there too, different colors for different types, etc) as a visual cue.

I think the reaction you get is entirely a matter of prices. You can't possibly argue that offering a one-slot unlock for, say, ONE CENT, is going to make everyone rage-quit. I think there may exist a price point for each item that makes the company money and doesn't cause mass hysteria as you claim. Just because it's new and different doesn't make it a scam or the work of the devil.

Of course, you could also give subscribers a better deal of some kind while subbed, somehow, maybe. Maybe if you keep paying a sub for long enough, you get the global new class unlock as a veteran reward perk.

Some people want to have a multitude of alts and as such should probably invest in the global unlocks and more slots. Others play on ONE character, period, and would buy none of this at all, regardless of options offered. Everyone in between runs a gamut of different play styles, including some poor kids who have ZERO money to spend. Their parents won't give them the credit card, they have to grind for everything. You're most likely never going to get $5 worth of Stars from them, because that would take a lot of begging and borrowing and grinding to accumulate for a strictly non-sub player, and they could buy more little things for lesser prices with that anyway. To them, the cheaper option of getting just one new class slot is much more reasonable and within reach than making them do the global one for whatever that ends up costing.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Aegis
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Experience and history have

Experience and history have proven that when it comes to micro-transactions in the western MMO market, the winning formula is to offer cosmetic items, convenience items, and services. Over-monetization has proven to be anathema, and people are extremely leery of anything even remotely resembling the concept. MWM doesn't need to reinvent the wheel here and frankly they shouldn't try to, especially when it comes to pricing and monetization because that will literally make or break the bank for them. If City of Titans' pricing model is a flop then that's it, the game is dead. Therefore, if MWM wants to reinvent the wheel, it should be on ANYTHING but the pricing and microtransaction model. MWM should pick a proven model, tweak it to suit their needs and call it a day. The very survival of the game is dependent on people being willing to open their wallets and spend money on it.

It's about perception. People hate even the perception of being nickle-and-dimed, even if it is regarding trivial amounts of money. Whether you consider it paradoxical or not, the people that will spend money on the game would rather spend $5 to permanently unlock something they'll only ever use once or twice than spend a few cents per use.

There are, in general, three kinds of people that spend money on MMOs today. The first are the whales. These rare and majestic creatures are rich in disposable income and happily whip out the credit card and spend $100 or more on the game on a whim. The second are the freemiums. They're not willing to spring for a monthly subscription, but they are willing to spend $5 here, or $10 there. The last are the regulars. These people pay for a subscription, and may restrict themselves to spending their stipend, but they may also spring for an additional $10 here or even $20 there. These three kinds of people are the ones that will, [higher power] willing, keep City of Titans afloat. These are the people that MWM needs to focus on appealing to, and there are proven, successful models for doing so.

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People, being people, will

People, being people, will not see your 50-cent one-class Character Slot as a discount, but see the full-price, full-function slot as a rip-off that should have been sold for 50-cents. Your rabid efforts to monetize everything will just appear to be nickle-and-diming. Let's just keep it simple, there's no need for a hundred variables, all with a different cost.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Aegis wrote:
Aegis wrote:

There are, in general, three kinds of people that spend money on MMOs today. The first are the whales. These rare and majestic creatures are rich in disposable income and happily whip out the credit card and spend $100 or more on the game on a whim. The second are the freemiums. They're not willing to spring for a monthly subscription, but they are willing to spend $5 here, or $10 there. The last are the regulars. These people pay for a subscription, and may restrict themselves to spending their stipend, but they may also spring for an additional $10 here or even $20 there. These three kinds of people are the ones that will, [higher power] willing, keep City of Titans afloat. These are the people that MWM needs to focus on appealing to, and there are proven, successful models for doing so.

+1

Pretty much how i see it as well. Exceptions might exist, but i still feel this is the norm. ;)

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I will also voice my

I will also voice my disinterest in this idea. I think the norm is to pay for a class unlock and the slot unlock as two independent entities. Trying to limit the flexibility of either is going to seem like nickel and dimeing. You also have to consider how things will operate after awhile. Say a person deletes a "premium" class and roles a "basic" class in that slot but isn't very happy with that, then they have to buy the new class that was just released and buy the "upgrade" to allow them to role that new class in that slot. If that person is on a budget then I could see them getting a bit peeved.

Aegis comment is missing the most common type of player. The freebie, the person that never spends a dime.

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If what you're telling me is

If what you're telling me is true, then the dream of letting some people pay for stuff while others grind for it will most likely never come to fruition. If there are no low-price items to buy, then there will likely be no purchases at all by the "don't have access to the credit card" crowd, because their ability to scrounge Stars off of whales like me will not be fast enough that they can actually buy any of this stuff with grinded-for Stars purchased with IGC. If they have no realistic hope of unlocking anything that way, they will probably just ignore the Star market entirely, which is a fate you've already assigned to them in your market customer profile breakdown.

Also, don't try to tell me that monetization schemes have remained the same forever. When CoX rolled out 10 years ago, it was "buy to play, pay a sub to keep playing or no login for you." WoW worked the same way, and was RIDICULOUSLY popular and immediately embraced by like EVERY video-gaming nerd on the planet. Then Magic Online came along and started making tons of money on their version of "no cost to buy, no sub required (you just buy lots of packs and event tickets, so we get MORE of your money that way anyhow, because look, no upper limit on your possible spending!)". So this has evolved over recent time and is continuing to do so. There are websited that delve into recvent trends and so forth and the behaviors of different markets. Also, if I'm wrong and you're right that the Western market HAS been figured out, then guess what, the correct answer is "lockboxes". Welcome to Lockbox Land, population: all of us.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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Ok,

Ok,

On your first point, F2P people manage to grind out enough IGC to purchase cash shop items in other MMOs. Yes, it often takes a lot of grinding, but to be brutally honest, that is the point. It being more convenient to pay $5 for those two character slots or that account bank expansion rather than grind them out is the entire crux of the freemium transaction model. Again, CoT's transaction model should focus on appealing to the people that are most likely to spend money on the game. As for the people that I am so callously consigning to the the cold wastes exclusion, I think you're missing some key points there, which I'll cover below.

You're belaboring the plight of this hypothetical player with no access to a credit or debit card a bit much, for two reasons. First, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but the last I heard, there will be an upfront cost to play CoT, but subscribing after that will be optional. Since it is very unlikely that CoT will be on store shelves (PC games are disappearing from brick-and-mortar stores entirely, and producing and distributing hard copies is expensive), this means that anyone buying access to the game will be doing so online, meaning they will have access to the means to perform online transactions. Players without access to a credit card, debit card, or some other means of conducting online transactions probably won't even be playing the game at all. Second, the "No access to any means of conducting online transactions" demographic is shrinking every year, especially in the areas that are likely to be home to the bulk of CoT's customer base. Even if all else fails, pre-paid cards are available and perfectly usable with online transactions.

As for the final point, yes, transaction models change. But to be brutally honest again, MWM isn't really in a position to commit to a grand experiment when it comes to a transaction model. After the actual substance of the game, it'll be the transaction model that makes or breaks CoT. Given MWM's position, gambling big on an experimental transaction model is a risk they can't really afford. If the transaction model is a flop, then it doesn't matter if the actual game is good, because it won't bring in enough money to sustain itself and the game will die. So, better to stick to a proven formula.

Re: Grimfox immediately above. My comment wasn't intended as a reflection of the MMO player base as a whole, but of who actually spends money on MMOs. Freebies are important, and support a game in their way, but it's ultimately the people who open their wallet and spend that decide the fate of a game. A game can have millions of players, but if too few of them actually spend money on the game, it doesn't matter.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

If what you're telling me is true, then the dream of letting some people pay for stuff while others grind for it will most likely never come to fruition. If there are no low-price items to buy, then there will likely be no purchases at all by the "don't have access to the credit card" crowd, because their ability to scrounge Stars off of whales like me will not be fast enough that they can actually buy any of this stuff with grinded-for Stars purchased with IGC. If they have no realistic hope of unlocking anything that way, they will probably just ignore the Star market entirely, which is a fate you've already assigned to them in your market customer profile breakdown.

What the heck are you on about here?

You give the impression that Stars bought from other players will have an expiration time on them and thus they would have to get what they need for a purchase within a set amount of time, or that there will be a cap on how much they can "store". Which is soooo not going to be the case. Sure it will take someone who can't contribute a single cent a longer to unlock things but I'm sure it won't be on the level of "unrealistic". Though that is somewhat dependent on how new they are to the game in relation to the games age.
Or maybe this is just a case of you defining "realistic hope" in a different way than me, and probably most of us.

If someone through just playing the game (not directly grinding) can unlock things at perhaps half the rate as a someone who buys stars at an equal rate as a subber gets through stipend then I'd say the Star-mart prices are a good level.

Really, lately you seem to be painting up these doomsday level scenarios that unless MWM specifically designs their cash shop to accommodate those who can't directly pay even single cent them self then CoT will fail, just because a few people can't unlock things (even partially) at a sufficient rate (determined by you) due to them not being able to trade for the Stars needed fast enough (relative to the cash shop price asked).

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I'm bad at doing quotes, so

I'm bad at doing quotes, so please bear with me.

To Aegis:

If you want to stick to the "tried and true" business model, the one that worked SO well for so long, you'd devolve back to "pay $50 to buy it, then make a monthly sub a hard requirement to be allowed to log in at all" which was the model CoT and WoW originally used, and quite successfully, at least in WoW's case. Since then, many have called that model "too old fashioned, and limits the player base to those who can pay $15 per month, so not enough players to make the game feel like a full world.". This presumably means you'd prefer the more recent "standard model everybody else currently uses", which is the lockbox model, which everyone complains about, dislikes, and which caters to whales like me and makes it's money on them while basically making life less fun for the grinders.

As for my penchant towards innovation, well, this is only an internet forum. It is the appropriate place for speculation of all kinds, I think. The MWM devs can hear all points of view, ignore mine entirely because I'm a known crackpot by now :), and go with whatever plan they like. That's fine, and as such this, what we're saying on these forums, is all a bunch of sound and fury signifying nothing except our own personal thoughts, which is okay. So I'm not going to stop trying to posit new ideas here, even those about monetization, and I hope you'll indulge me as I post threads attempting to innovate.

To blacke4dawn:

I'm thinking about the prototypical youngster/teenager whose parents are willing to buy them a game for a one-shot price of $50 but not willing to keep letting them buy more upgrades all the time. It's the parents who control the credit card in that case, not the player. Also, if the grinders can grind for Stars half as fast as I can buy them, then my $10 per month sub is probably not getting me enough Stars for my money and I should just grind for that myself. Also, this is generally not the case in games that have hybrid sub/nosub and a cash shop, as Aegis point's out above where they write "F2P people manage to grind out enough IGC to purchase cash shop items in other MMOs. Yes, it often takes a lot of grinding, but to be brutally honest, that is the point."

To all:

I'll be honest, I'm not going to say I think this idea will definitely actually work. I still think, however, that it's more a matter of the specific offerings and their prices though. The argument that this simply will not work, no matter what, and if you try to change it from what the other games have to anything else, you're just going to piss everyone off and make them quit on you sounds a little too dismissive, to me. I'm not saying that the adverse reaction you're afraid of COULD NEVER happen, just that it's a little alarmist to claim that it's the most likely result, without even seeing the specific options listed and their prices first, and I haven't even figured those details out yet.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

To blacke4dawn:
I'm thinking about the prototypical youngster/teenager whose parents are willing to buy them a game for a one-shot price of $50 but not willing to keep letting them buy more upgrades all the time. It's the parents who control the credit card in that case, not the player. Also, if the grinders can grind for Stars half as fast as I can buy them, then my $10 per month sub is probably not getting me enough Stars for my money and I should just grind for that myself. Also, this is generally not the case in games that have hybrid sub/nosub and a cash shop, as Aegis point's out above where they write "F2P people manage to grind out enough IGC to purchase cash shop items in other MMOs. Yes, it often takes a lot of grinding, but to be brutally honest, that is the point."

Then you are making some very bad assumptions. The only good/correct one is that parents maybe very reluctant to pay (out of their own pocket) for anything more than just the base game. You disregard the possibility of pre-paid cards, debit cards, asking parent to use whole/part of allowance or money earned through other means for this or even other payment methods. Parents credit card will not be the only way non-adults can use to pay for this.

Ok, so was a bit over-optimistic on the grinding rate but if the sub is purely a stipend of Stars then I'll probably just buy them as needed instead of subbing. If the sub includes a stipend (which is not decided) then it will be more than just the stipend thus judging the worth of the sub based on how fast others can grind a equal amount of just the Stars is ridiculous imo. Besides someone has to place those Stars up on the market for others to be able to "grind" for them. Hopefully they can structure the sub in such a way that if they include a stipend it's just gravy on top, without making non-subbers feel like they are getting shafted.

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I may be overemphasizing the

I may be overemphasizing the poor little kids that can't spend money, but I think the stated goal of making the game work in such a way that desirable things can be either paid for or grinded for would be better accomplished if we didn't just assume everyone can ultimately pay real money of their own or else ckfu off. The players who are going to go out and get the items and large piles of IGC that they're then going to trade to whales for Stars can, as at least a first approximation, be treated as people who have no way to spend real money of their own on Stars. I think it helps to design a monetization scheme with that player in mind. Maybe not the highest priority, I'll grant, but I don't think we can seriously just ignore them.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I may be overemphasizing the poor little kids that can't spend money, but I think the stated goal of making the game work in such a way that desirable things can be either paid for or grinded for would be better accomplished if we didn't just assume everyone can ultimately pay real money of their own or else ckfu off. The players who are going to go out and get the items and large piles of IGC that they're then going to trade to whales for Stars can, as at least a first approximation, be treated as people who have no way to spend real money of their own on Stars. I think it helps to design a monetization scheme with that player in mind. Maybe not the highest priority, I'll grant, but I don't think we can seriously just ignore them.

Right, and the only way to ignore them is to make it impossible for them to unlock anything unless they them self pay for it. By having a market where they can buy Stars from other players there is some consideration for them already.

I'm just not convinced that MWM should actively design anything for what is most likely a very small group of players, and I'm talking about those who actually can't pay anything beyond initial purchase. They should just be "lumped" together with those who choose to not pay anything, and in that regard I just don't think that breaking it up in this way will make it look inviting (look back at my example of what it probably would look like after 10 post-launch classes).

Another thing to consider is if the people you target this for will actually have the mental capacity/maturity to understand how to use it "properly", and that includes managing which class you create in which slot so they don't "lock out" any available option. I just don't see the system that MWM would have to create, regardless of if manual or automatic management, to be worth it.