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Canonization

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JayBezz
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Canonization

I would like to see an in-game system that helps players canonize their characters/supergroups/stories into the tapestry of the Titans Universe.

This will already be happening with the player designed buildings and uniforms and NPCs but I would like there to be a system in place for characters who really help define the game lore.

- -

For example: Thundrax, to me IS canon in the Champions IP. Because the IP is owned by the game *unlike Marvel and DC Comics* there's every chance that Champions Online could canonize Thundrax in the IP for all his contributions. Those of you who don't know who I'm talking about, this is a person who wrote many of the lore books for the Champions IP before Champions Online ever went online.

Other examples are: Caliga, Brou, and Rune (of the Silver Age Sintenels). These characters have really put a stamp on the last 6 years of Champions lore. I can name VERY FEW writers at Marvel or DC who've had than impact on their IP as long.

- -

What makes a character "canon"? To me it's their place in the "Wiki" and in general storytelling. When something/someone is accepted canon you can build around it. With the Titans Universe IP being lesser known than Marvel, DC Comics, Champions and even Mutants and Masterminds... I think players (and Missing Worlds Media) can turn this from a presumed weakness to an actual strength.

I PROPOSE an optional badge that is achieved after XX,XXX hours of Character playtime that characters (and maybe guilds?) can become Canonized in the game lore. This is an incentive for those, like myself, who do not plan on using Alting as our form of end-game and want to become a true part of the Titans Universe. This upgrades their status in the in-game Wiki and allows devs to use (not own) the likeness of the character in perpetuity for future expansions of the IP. (Yes, this would require a digital contract signiture.. thus why it is optional)

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Comicsluvr
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I think this idea bears

I think this idea bears looking into. I love the idea that my character might become someone that others see on the Wiki or whatever. The same thing can be done for groups as well. It provides incentive for playing fewer alts (not saying that alts are bad) which can be a rare thing.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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When the devs have suggested

When the devs have suggested that one goal is that player toons will be able to make a legitimate impact on the setting of the game, in a way that was less than fulfilled in CoH and CO and is predictably not possible in DCUO, I presumed that this is what they meant: that sufficient in-game time and successes will mean the player character becomes part of the IP and background. The way that when your toon walks along in CoH, you would have NPC passersby mentioning them in dialogue, but taken to much higher levels.

Am I right in thinking this?

"TRUST ME."

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Maybe a contest every month

Maybe a contest every month or more? Submissions would be chosen on a number of criteria for that particular contest. Maybe MWM wants a particular type, Detective, Sloth, Stealthy characters that fit well in the existing lore.

Of course, EULA on submissions also means that MWM has the rights to that character for 3 years. Maybe less, if MWM wants to run the same Contest for that Spot again much sooner. ;D

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If CoT were to have something

If CoT were to have something like this, I'd want it to be purely at the discretion of MWM for outstanding contribution and not the result of some mechanic or formula. Like they did with Coyote in our old city.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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After you've become canon

After you've become canon they can include your story in expansions. Is your SG a popular superhero training ground? Well this expansion includes missions where your academy is under siege. If your character very protective of their secret identity? Maybe the next expansion is helping you keep that identity secret from a major foe.

ALSO this helps players expand on the comic lore that devs have not directly defined yet. If your character a Faery? Well maybe there isn't much Fae Lore in Titans Universe and they want to use your character to help define that template (Ware-creatures, Vampires, Alien Race, Extra-dimensional etc may not be dev-defined and players can create the canon).

After being accepted as canon, the future of the Titans Universe can include things that YOU created (and relinquish your ability to be compensated for).

- -

I don't think a monthly contest is really the best way to go about it, and I think it should only happen AFTER the 1st year anniversary (allowing dev created lore for expansions throughout the first few years). But if you've been dedicated to a concept over the last year (and have the playtime to prove it..) then you can choose to be flagged so that when writers are seeking the next story for a content expansion, your character(s) information is eligible to be used in that story.

I don't want to restrict or force the writers to do a specific "winner" at predetermined times. The purpose is to give them fodder to choose from AND to really drive home the fact that this IP is built FUBU

Cinnder wrote:

If CoT were to have something like this, I'd want it to be purely at the discretion of MWM for outstanding contribution and not the result of some mechanic or formula. Like they did with Coyote in our old city.

Exactly what I mean. You beat me to it

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Redlynne
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Simplest thing that I can

Simplest thing that I can think of along these lines would be what amounts to a "Hologram Memorial" for whatever Team last ran a piece of group content (think Task Force). So instead of "erecting a statue" in tribute to your greatness for overcoming this trial and saving the city (or whatever) ... instead the city "erects a hologram" in your memory ... which, of course, only lasts until the next Team completes that bit of content and then THEY get their holograms put up memorializing their deed (most recently).

The dirt simple way to do this would be to copy the costumes of a Team upon completion of the Task Force (perhaps requiring an "in person" turn in instead of a cell phone call) and then making those costumes viewable at larger than life size (2x normal size?) as partially transparent "holographic" projections at a nearby memorial site dedicated to the purpose. The system works on a simple "overwrite" basis, where the memorial just keeps projecting the images of the last Team to complete that bit of content ... until the next Team comes along and completes it. Nothing too particularly fancy, but something you and your Team could point to after finishing and feel like you've "left your mark" on the city (again, until someone else does the same content and then it's their turn). In fact, I'd even go so far as to design the "recording" system to copy down whatever /emote the Team's characters are doing at the time of the completion act of the Task Force (ie. a "say cheese!" moment) and then let the holograms animate that /emote on repeat.

Note that such a "erect a hologram in our memory" sort of deal would encourage people to wear their best looking costume (or worst looking, for the more perverse types) to be recorded and kept on display. Obviously, such a memorial couldn't be a PERMANENT thing, otherwise the city would be buried in statuary within a year ... so a holographic and temporary memorial would seem to fit the bill.

Now, where that memorial might be sited could be an interesting question. The Hall of Heroes? The Memory Vault? Memorial Circle? At Last Park? In front of the train station for that neighborhood? There doesn't have to be a one size fits all solution.


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islandtrevor72
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While I love the idea of a

While I love the idea of a player character being canonized I am just not a fan of the ideas behind how to do so and what the in game results suggested.

I would much rather it be periodic contests set by the devs (this way they are never forced to do one half hearted while they try and get a new issue done or fix game issues ect). I am STRONGLY against any method that uses time played as a factor (for obvious reasons). I would also like the contest to be much more than just a simple costume contest...give it something more. If anyone remembers way back when CoX ran a Halloween contest and awarded titles of Mr/Mrs Paragon City and Mr/Mrs Rogue Isles it can be along those lines. I can go into details on it but it boiled down to a review of your costume, character concept and a short question list. Something along those lines yet perhaps a little more involved.

I would also be less inclined to have this canonization go the route of mission arcs. Its a lot less fun to play a game where you play second fiddle to a contest winner.
To me the ideal way to canonize the contest winners is to offer them a spot on the cities 'Justice League'.

Basically the city has a 'City of Titans League' building that any player can enter and look around. In this building is randomly spawning dev created characters just going about their business (think the random citizens except its the major super npcs of the game). When a player wins the contest his character is now included in the random spawns for the Leagues headquarters. Code it so if that character is being played then it wont spawn in the building. Any missions to include this player created character should be along the lines of defending the headquarters. Perhaps there are portraits of all the league members and the player created character is included. An official member list in the front entrance, ect ect ect. Do the same for the bad guys. If the devs ever do a 'help the league fight back the menace' night (like when CoX had Lord Recluse and gang attack Pocket D and Statesman and his group fought them back) then those players who won the contest could be invited to join the devs team for the battle.

If you keep the player characters involvement down it will make the missions more interesting for other players AND you avoid most of the pitfalls with the portrayal of another writers character.

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I might as well come in here

I might as well come in here and leave the same cranky old man post I always leave when this topic comes up.

No.

I will always vote against canonization of player characters except in very rare situations. If there is a certain player character that brings powerful peacekeeping skills and endless amounts of joy into the ingame community only to be tragically snatched away by disease, accident, or violence after years of making Titan City one of the most comfortable, welcoming places in cyberspace, then yes, that character has earned a permanent place in Titan City. Longevity, PvP, number of raids, maximum badge collection, all other ingame functions carry their own reward and none of them on their own are worthy of permanent addition into the virtual universe.

No character should be canonized strictly on the basis of gameplay mastery. There must be some significant contribution to the community itself that makes their sudden, tragic absence a loss to everyone, veterans, newbies, players, and staff alike.

Saints deserve memorials, not elite gamers.

That's my position. Always has been, always will be.

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Redlynne
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I think there's a BIG

I think there's a BIG difference between temporary recognition for your deeds while playing the game, and permanent recognition for your contributions to the game as a whole.

Temporary stuff is things like civilians on the street commenting on whatever Mission you just completed (successfully or unsuccessfully). It also includes things like the "hologram memorial" idea I listed above, where the recognition for YOUR contribution lasts until the next group comes along to complete the same content. Those things are fine, in my view, because they don't permanently shift the boundaries/scope/landscape of the world itself.

Permanent stuff though simply has to be RESERVED for things that ought to be remembered forever, and usually it's going to be for stuff more consequential/enduring than winning a costume contest. Things like Coyote and Ascendant roleplaying phone calls in tram stations are the sorts of things worthy of becoming woven into the more permanent fabric of the game.


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Quote:
Quote:

No character should be canonized strictly on the basis of gameplay mastery. There must be some significant contribution to the community itself that makes their sudden, tragic absence a loss to everyone, veterans, newbies, players, and staff alike..

So the only way to celebrate life is to have someone die. Fantastic....

I can just imagine you at a birthday party...'Happy birthday Timmy....of course your closer to being dead now and then we can really celebrate your birthday'

I think you are confusing canonizing and honoring.

Redlynne
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I think that what Greyhawk

I think that what Greyhawk was advocating was "you can't FARM your way to permanent canonization" rather than any sort of "you have to DIE in order to get your picture put up on this wall" type of thing reminiscent of The Right Stuff (7 minutes in).


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That's not what he said or

That's not what he said or even implied in his post.... talk of tragic loss and terms like saints is pretty specific.

JayBezz
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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Quote:
No character should be canonized strictly on the basis of gameplay mastery. There must be some significant contribution to the community itself that makes their sudden, tragic absence a loss to everyone, veterans, newbies, players, and staff alike..
So the only way to celebrate life is to have someone die. Fantastic....
I can just imagine you at a birthday party...'Happy birthday Timmy....of course your closer to being dead now and then we can really celebrate your birthday'
I think you are confusing canonizing and honoring.

I had the same thought.. thanks for the laugh IslandTrevor72 ..

I love the Runaway's book. For a long time it wasn't going to be considered canon, but now characters like Molly Hayes have been accepted into the greater MU because the work was good enough to stand on its own.

Again any use would be at the discretion of the writers and game devs, but I think when someone does something exceptional it should be recognized #ColorPurple

(... yes even before they die)

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My only problem with

My only problem with canonizing someone is fitting them into the canon. Usually, you have to cremate them and pack the ashes into a shell, before firing them over enemy territory.

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what if put your character in

what if put your character in CoT comics?

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active player character's

active player character's canonized, while cool, I have to agree with Greyhawk. take a pass. there are to many things that could ( and will eventually) go wrong. if a player wants stories where their characters are central to it, then that is what the mission creator is for.

while I like the idea of ny namesake being officially canonized in some big league format I am not a fan of the loss of control.., players are NOT a part of MWM and if their character is canonized they effectively give up all creative control over said character...you don't like how MWM plans to use your newly canonized character? tough noogies...

yeah...I'll take a pass on this one.

the closest I would go is the holographic memorial thingy red talked about but that isn't so much canonizing as it is celebrating X characters...albeit temporarily.

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I'm going to chime in here,

I'm going to chime in here, but not as a dev.

My characters are my characters. To have them canonized in any way would remove them from my control as a player. I would no longer be able to play that character. I made the character specifically so that I could play it, so why would I want to give that up?

Once again, this is my personal belief, and in no way reflects anything from a Dev perspective.

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Well I think the implied part

Well I think the implied part of this is the player would actually volunteer the character.... by contest, a submission form or whatever. I don't think (or at least hope) Jay wasn't saying that it was involuntary, the player chooses to go down that path.

And there are ways around the entire losing control of your character thing, I offered one myself. I fully agree (as I said before) that any actual stories or missions should have that character in a very background role (no speaking part, just another hero/vill fighting in the background). To avoid as much complaints about the characters use in the game as possible.

I can fully understand a player not wanting to be a part of this but I can also see someone who does want it. If I was to give an honest opinion I personally doubt I would ever try to get my character canonized (not that important to me), but I am not opposed to it.

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Again, the best "non-invasive

Again, the best "non-invasive" means of recognizing/honoring the contributions of a specific character/player to the game are going to have to be around the edges, rather than front and center. The whole thing with having civilians in tram stations talking on their phones saying "Ascendant who? Sorry, you have the wrong number." in Local Chat is probably the most respectable extent you can go to of making reference to an individual character's "canon" without appropriating it wholesale. So to echo Conundrum of Furballs above, doing something that references to a specific character, if you know the in-joke, ought to be fine ... but wholesale appropriation of the character for use by MWM (exclusively?) shouldn't be ... except in very specific circumstances, such as what happened to Coyote, which only occurred because the Player died (and thus, the character would otherwise never get played again).

So in that respect, an in-game homage by the Devs to a character who has had an impact on the community at large (ala Go. Hunt. Kill Skuls.) is probably something we should expect (and encourage!). Wholesale appropriation of a character, however, gets into messy entanglements concerning "property rights" to that character. Best to leave that can of worms unopened as much as is practical.


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This would be completely

This would be completely optional. Everyone knows that comic book fans want to control the stories of their (and their favorite) characters. I tend to think we've learned that we will never have that kind of control, but for those who want to hold onto their baby..

Also I feel I must cite an example of how this "should" work:

-Xora is a character who is a refugee from a race of extra terrestrials who are symbiotic in nature.. the race takes humanoid hosts and is dying.
-The player who created Xora marks her for canonization.
-When the devs meet to discuss next expansion they say "I'd love to do an alien story. Lets look into our wiki..
-The dev finds Xora's story interesting (and not against any current canon) and her race seems like a great antagonist for heroes and villains alike

Devs make an expansion using the Xornites as side plot enemies. Not using Xora or her likeness itself but referencing her story.

Xora is (hopefully) excited to feel like she's truly apart of the TU. Xora's friends are so excited to play through the content. The player base at large gets an expansion that is compelling in its own right. Player retention and replay value is immeasurably increased.

EDIT: It's worth mentioning that this type of storytelling is already happening with many of the Kickstarter promises. NPCs and story and buildings etc. It can be as big as an enemy faction or as small as a a contact NPC in a new district.

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Big difference between

Big difference between players who donated a certain amount of funds at a certain tier (which are limited in number) and any player being capable of marking any character and character background story "for canonization". I'm not saying it is impossible by any means, just a huge stretch of difference.

Something like a player made NPC and or an entire faction might work more with UCG. Where a player's standard UCG in which rewards are limited maintains a consistent level of ratings to get reviewed for dev promotion to provide full rewards. The faction still wouldn't be a full 'canonized' faction where players earn faction rep and get access to all the stuff that factions will be used for in the game, but it is probably the closest to it.

Now as a player NOT "a dev" this is how I feel:

Canonize get a player's character, or other creations could be possible, but I agree that it should not be handled by any means through game play. It should be as a result of the player's affect on the community at large, typically in a way that is more of a reference or community-driven easter egg. Placing an actual player character in the game when that player affected the dev team and / or the player community positively as a way to honor their memory when they've past on is probably just about the most fair way to handle such an occurrence. Any other formula to the system even if it has nothing to do with gameplay but a system outside of the game will result in players trying to game system. Competitions which may be irregular, or diffucilt to keep up with or even fall off the schedule altogether because ongoing development scheduling demands will result in complaints by players that a once "promised and offered system" isn't being kept. Honoring s player's memory is probably the safest bet a dev team could make if they were to fully cannonize a PC in the game. Otherwise. Leave it as a rare occurrence of a reference like Redlynn noted earlier.

"Mythical dev hat on"
Speaking of Redlynne, I really like the idea of the hologram based on play of certain types of content. Though I may want to take it a step or two further...I have the bones of an idea forming here and will include it as part of a proposal.


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islandtrevor72
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Quote:
Quote:

Canonize get a player's character, or other creations could be possible, but I agree that it should not be handled by any means through game play. It should be as a result of the player's affect on the community at large, typically in a way that is more of a reference or community-driven easter egg.

I dunno...I still think a Halloween or milestone anniversary contest where the winners get their name on a plaque or a small statue in a park somewhere is a fun prize.

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A temporary reward that is

A temporary reward that is regularly renewed with the names/likenesses of other player characters as a result of some ingame goal? Maybe. Any support I would offer would be dependent on having systems hardcoded into the game to prevent abuse, limits on how long any one character would be displayed, and limits on the total number of times any one character could receive the reward. If you're going to do something like this then it must be both fair and to the greatest extent possible, egalitarian.

For example. My main villain participated in the official Pocket D Halloween costume contests at every opportunity. On numerous occasions the character won a golden title that lasted a short while (72 hours or something like that). This kind of thing is superb, builds morale, and helps everyone feel involved. This kind of perk as a result of an ingame victory is fine. A special title for finishing a particular TF? Sure. A permanent statue in city square for finishing a particular TF? No. Absolutely opposed.

There are simply too many people in the world who would lie, cheat, steal, or otherwise game the system because their real world life is so devoid of recognition and their narcissism is so high that winning a permanent presence in the game would justify any deviant behavior necessary to make it happen.

A wall or hologram with the initials/names of every Kickstarter participant who gave more than a certain amount? Sure. This is a fine idea.
Statues of the top five Kickstarter contributors in the city square? Not really a supporter of this idea, but not totally opposed.
Giving a working SG base entrance in the form of a custom building to every individual/SG who contributed more than $5000? Yeah. This, I think, was and still is a great idea. It will provide a nice variety of architectural styles and it provides a permanent reward for those who are making the game possible without breaking the overall "immersion" (hard to define, I know). I might even go so far as to support a special customized NPC inside the entrance as a receptionist/security guard.

But the idea of permanently canonizing a character just because they obsessively PvP, obsessively repeat a TF or obsessively defeat a particular enemy group does not appeal to me. Nope. No canonization of elite gamers. I would never support such a reward system. Temporary accolades, sure. Permanent accolades? Nope.

Why the difference between a building and a statue? Because not matter how massively it is customized, a building is still impersonal.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Now, where that memorial might be sited could be an interesting question. The Hall of Heroes? The Memory Vault? Memorial Circle? At Last Park? In front of the train station for that neighborhood? There doesn't have to be a one size fits all solution.

I can see having a limited number of these scattered about the city. Remember how CoH had the cape mission, back-story for the various Trials etc? There could be one holo for each trial or whatever. It could be located near the Contact for that mission even.

Take it one better: A level 10-15 Trial is established that involves battling one of the local gangs. The Contact to start the Trial happens to be a TCPD officer standing in front of the building where the Trial begins. Nearby is a holo of the last team to succeed in the trial along with a plaque the player can read for a Travel Achievement. The plaque will give a basic outline of the Trial including the number of missions, who you're likely to be fighting and so-on. This will give an in-game and in-character description of what the Trial entails instead of the players having to guess (which I hate) or having to go out of game and read a Wikki (very immersion-breaking).

This way the holo is both a temporary tribute to those that have succeeded as well as a marker for those who want to run the Trial. Heroic Trials would have their holos in appropriate places. Villainous holos could be located as well in the infamous places.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

"Mythical dev hat on"
Speaking of Redlynne, I really like the idea of the hologram based on play of certain types of content. Though I may want to take it a step or two further...I have the bones of an idea forming here and will include it as part of a proposal.

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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

For example. My main villain participated in the official Pocket D Halloween costume contests at every opportunity. On numerous occasions the character won a golden title that lasted a short while (72 hours or something like that). This kind of thing is superb, builds morale, and helps everyone feel involved. This kind of perk as a result of an ingame victory is fine. A special title for finishing a particular TF? Sure. A permanent statue in city square for finishing a particular TF? No. Absolutely opposed.

I always viewed the "dev granted" titles as non-canon but the normal badges/titles were more "legit" than the dev granted ones.

But then again, I viewed most things that were not normally obtainable in the game as "non canon". That included the costume powers, where you could look like a carnie/Rikti/The lost etc... because they were not available for everyone to unlock.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Godling
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Joined: 11/02/2013 - 13:28
Canonization is easy just be

Canonization is easy just be part of a stable supergroup that does something on a regular basis and you are effectively canonized.