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It looks like we can give everyone a list of minimum specs for running City of Titans. Please keep in mind that this is 'for now' until we are able to add more graphics and other system refinements. Currently you will need :
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At least 16GB of main DRAM.
These stats may change as we continue to test.
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I like the idea of subs having access to new content a 2-6 months before released to the wilds. Seems like a good incentive to sub.
For me, as a dedicated subscriber, access to the beta server is ok, but not a very attractive sub benefit -- I want my sub benefits to affect my live characters in the real game.
Spurn all ye kindle.
As I said, feedback is handy.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
SWTOR did this for the Galactic Starfighter expansion:
Subs got it at one point in time
Preferred/Premium players got it a bit later
F2Pers got it last.
However, in all 3 cases... not a single dime beyond what they were paying at that point in time *was required*.
You could gain access sooner by subbing (if premium/F2P) or spending $5 (if you were F2P so you got it at the same time as Preferred players).
Access to Beta means meh to me. :/ That's just not a benefit imo. Pay to test? And only rarely does it seem players having access to beta test brings about changes.
Limiting the pool of people who can test your product does seem counter-intuitive. I say let everyone beta test the new stuff. Then they can make an informed decision if they would like to spend the money to access the new content on release or if they'd rather wait several months to see it.
I'm certainly not a particular fan of the 'pay to test' approach several developers have taken, whether it was in the guise of early access or not. However, if I pay for it I expect to get more in return than "lol character wipe". It is also a certainty that the "j'accuse" crowd would claim that subscribers are paying to test the game for the free to play crowd.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Perhaps you've hit on something Fez
Would subscribers be happy if they got perpetual use of a Preview Server with their Live server characters while anyone who was Free received constant character wipes and had to use pre-made (dev made) builds to test content?
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I can see the live server being filled with just F2P players then and the subscribers being on the test server. Granted, this does all depend as to the state that stuff gets thrown onto the test server (ie a buggy test patch)
That is just my take on it.
Personally, I can see the argument for NOT letting F2Pers have test server access (and subscribers get treated like they used to be in CoX, where character wipes CAN happen), or by letting BOTH player bases do it.
I wouldn't split the player base even more by saying "yes you can, but you can only play with the tools we provide you" (pre built characters), especially where the game is being set up to offer players a wide building base (looks, powerset combinations etc) to a certain subset of players.
Perhaps just make the beta server for those who actually want to test the changes and not those who want to live on the beta server. I recall posts of forums goers who seemed to do just that. Maybe then it would help stop the posts of "What's next? I just did all this content on the beta server!" that was annoying to see.
This is where I begin to feel like Subscription vs. F2P is becoming like PvE vs. PvP as regards to balancing a game. It's a slippery slope and eventually I feel like you are going to anger one side more than the other in the name of "Balance". Obviously you can't make everybody happy with both models. So now the choice is, "Who do you cater to the most?" One side shouts they want this, the other shouts that's not fair balance it for us. Before long you've unintentionally ruined a great game with good intentions. This is something that, while player input is nice to have, must unfortunately fall on the developers to decide. We can go back and forth on this topic for years and never come to a mutual conclusion about how it should be done or implemented. Obviously there has to be some kind of draw to both sides for both sides to choose that method they see fit to use. I just hope that the dev team can decide what will work best for them and still provide something in return for us. Good luck.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
When it comes to testing, I find that the devs do need a "control group" that is testing the content in the parameters they need set. Sometimes this would include testing a new framework or powerset, sometimes it would be using a default build to test content difficulty etc.
Just a thought tho.. I think testing is one of those things everyone should have access too.. just not always on your own terms.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I had a strange thought on that. You have companies which give you in-game rewards for watching advertisements. I wonder if it might be possible to have some kind of balanced reward for helping on the test server that trickles back to the 'real' game? Or would the balance issues be too much of a pain?
It wouldn't have to be anything major. Something along the level of premium inspirations or enhancements? (Or their counterpart in this game, anyway.) If you can reward people for clicking and muting an advertisement video, it might make sense to offer a reward for helping out on test with a reward that goes back to the main game.
I'm kidding about the 'muting' part. I never do that and I'm sure it never happen ever.
J
Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :) Working in Nebraska.
COT: Mission tips writer, studying Cinema 4D animation program
Very correct oOStaticOo.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
When that happens though, it should affect ALL players on the test server, and not just a subset of players... unless there is the ability for those not in the affected group to be *treated* like those who are affected (so it is possible for a subscriber to be treated like a non subscriber on the test server)
The beauty of microsubscriptions is that, if you like early content access but don't care about the beta server access, they're two different microsubscriptions, so you can just not pay for one of them.
As for what "early access" means, we're looking at a cross between "syndicated television" and Netflix models.
Missions and story arcs - some of the most familiar elements of "content" in an MMO - will be not-always-avaliable. Free players will have a selection of missions and story arcs that are free "this week" (or possibly "this two weeks," we haven't settled on a time frame yet), much the way TV shows would decide what episode to air in a given day or week during syndication. People can choose, if they have a favorite story arc or mission set, to subscribe to them, unlocking access whenever they want while they're subscribed to it. Each is its own microsubscription, probably with a broad package that is "everything" that's easy to select.
When new content comes out, those who are subscribed to the "new content" microsubscription will receive immediate access to it.
A few weeks, maybe a month or so (we'll have to test time frames), after it comes out, the new content will be part of the "what's free this fortnight" batch, and everybody will have a chance to play it.
Possibilities for subscribed players to purchase or offer coupons to others to purchase one-off tickets for access to a mission arc so their friends can join them may be available. We'll have to see how that balances against the pricing for simply having all those friends be micro-subscribed to the "new content" options.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
If you are going to rotate the content between not available, available, not available... what would happen to someone who was part way through the content when it gets turned off? does their progress get wiped when its restored or will they be able to carry on where they left off?
Just asking, because most other games, when you are part way through the progress and then abandon it, and then pick it back up.. you typically have to start from scratch.
Not wanting to throw a spanner in the works, but don't think that this WONT happen, it will... and people will complain if they discover that their progress was lost. And you will have to make it *blindingly* obvious as to what is on "special" and what is normally there...
The design would allow for suspension without loss of progress.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Cool, that answers my question #4 from post 539. Would still love to know the answers to the other questions, if you guys have time.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I'll take a crack at some:
1, 2) To be determined
3) The plan is to allow for the integration of user-created content into the world. So, instead of "pick an Architect mission, go to the yellow glowy pillar and click to enter" once you have selected, it activates in the world itself. The contact is placed, doors are flagged, etc. While for one-off missions this is a bit overkill, the real potential here is for mission craftsmen to make whole arc's, task forces, etc, which are as "real" as missions we make. While running these missions it will be clear that you are running a user-created mission, so it will not tie into any metastory, but otherwise, yeah, its there.
4 is already answered
5) That is the plan.
6) no comment. 8)
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
I must say that I'm feeling rather good about what Doctor Tyche has to say about this. It gives me a boost in hope about the game and whether or not I will be playing it. If it was going to go the F2P route I think I would have given up on the game and just wrote it off. I'm just not interested in F2P Model games. Tried too many of them and been burned or just burned out by them. I don't always have the disposable income to buy stuff every day or when I need it right then. It must be nice to be able to have that ability to do that, but being a single dad of 2 kids with one that has a disability makes it very hard to come up with that kind of money. I'd much rather have a Subscription that allows me to budget in X amount of dollars per month to be able to play a game in my spare time and have fun.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Thanks for the answers, Doc!
3 and 5 make me very, very happy. (If 1 and 2 eventually end up being 'yes' as well, I'll add a couple 'very's.)
I agree with Static: this is all sounding very positive from the viewpoint of a subber.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Would this be for normal missions that people would pick up and then drop (to resume at a later date?)
Because I feel that people would be *highly* annoyed if they were doing content and for one reason or another ended up getting stopped for X period of time, unless they stumped up cash to carry it on.
I would say that if they were already on it, then they could at least *finish* the quest line, although if they dropped it, they would be unable to pick it back up unless they paid for it.
CoX kept track of a lot of missions (as long as you didn't drop them). I still had the original dreck mission in my mission log LONG after they converted the mission to the timed version.
If i dropped it and picked it back up though... it would have been the timed version that I had.
If they DROP a normal mission and then have to redo it, why would they be upset exactly? If you exited a mission in CoH and dropped it, you had to restart it. Get DCed? Had to restart it.
The reason why I am bringing this up, is because you are being forced to "stop progress" in something until you fork out money/Wait an unknown period of time when it "cycles out of being free".
I can understand not letting you pick it up *once* it becomes free... but stopping someone from playing it for 2-4 weeks (or longer) even though they already have it in their mission log is (in my mind) a kick in the teeth.
Sure it might well stick in your mission log, and depending on *what* the mission entailed you could effectively be doing content that counted towards it, but it *doesn't count* because it is "turned off".
Would the quest stay in your log just greyed out (until you paid for content).
The closest I can think of that another game does similar to this is the "Operations" access that you can buy in SWTOR. I am not sure how it goes once your timer expires and you are still in a raid, but I would imagine that it wouldn't just drop you out of the raid *immediately*. Who knows, I could be wrong, and it dumps you the *second* your pass runs out, but that wouldn't just ruin for you, but also for the rest of the group.
I'm gonna step out of character as an unrepentant subber here for a moment and speak up for the f2per by saying that I think Gangrel has a good point.
Is there a reason that we wouldn't want to allow a character to continue one of these special arcs past the "open" window as long as they started it during the "open" period? Not to start over from scratch, but just to continue the arc till the end?
Of course, if the mission were dropped, it would seem logical to remove access till the next open window, but if the arc, TF, whatever were in progress, why not just keep it active till it was finished?
Spurn all ye kindle.
Problem may be with the F2P crowd is they might start hoarding missions that will expire until the next go round. It might cause issues. I say might, because I'm not sure. I understand the desire to be able to complete said missions or arcs and being frustrated with not being able to because you are F2P, but isn't that kind of the point? It's one of those things that makes F2P'ers want to sub. There is always a benefit and a drawback to certain things. This would be the drawback to being F2P. You may not be able to finish a mission if you aren't willing to pay for the ability to finish it in time.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Oh, that seems different than a normal mission. Those also tend to be things one doesn't just drop doing and come back to (outside of DCs) but I would hope if you DC and then come back quickly, it puts you right back in it.
I still do not understand the timed releases position as it's being described. In this scenario can non subscribers still buy access to said content without buying a subscription?
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Depending on how many missions are on the "cycle" and how large the quest log is, I cannot see how it would cause a problem. They would only be hoarding them *until* they completed it. And if it is like most other MMO's, once you have completed a mission, that is it... you cannot rerun it (dailies excluded, CoX flashback system).
Now, I can understand something like "you have till X date to complete Y mission" if it affected EVERYONE ie seasonal events. I t makes sense for it to get wiped from everyone in those situations (or if the quest gets "adjusted" on a global level).
Hell, I was a Premium level player when Freedom hit, but I did occasionally sub... but when I subbed.. i never did the SSA's on the last day of subscription because I never *exactly* sure as to when I would get DC'd for having an account that didn't qualify for them.
*shrugs* Sure, I could have possibly squeezed a few of them in, but as my play times could be interrupted at a moments notice for an indefinite amount of time, it made it not worthwhile to pick them up.
And yes, if you haven't noticed, I will normally take the F2P/Premium/non subscriber point of view when it comes to segregating stuff, because *most* of the forum users here were normally full time subscribers on at least one account, so normally apply the "better point of view" here (ie the sub point over the F2P point).
But overall, I am against the cycling of content between "now you have it, now you dont" for a certain subsclass of players. It is something that just doesn't sit right with me.
Hell, if you have to, just give me no reward for completing it... but at least make it possible for me to complete it if I have it in my quest log.
Sure.
Subs get access when it's released.
Premium players get access two or three months after it's released.
F2P players get access four or six months after it's released.
Does that premium or F2P want access to it sooner? Pay 30 dollars.
You can still get it totally free but later than those who sub! Want it now? Pay for it!
I've heard that the best number for active quests in a MMO is three. If we went with that in CoT, it would make hording of story-arcs by non-subbers completely pointless.
-----------------------------------------
I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
Ironically, even though CoX had 3 as the limit for a *long* time, it was later increased up to 7 as a limit.
Side note: Wildstar has a quest log of up to 40, although it would take a lot of work to get it up to that stage (you would have to visit several different zones, and get quests from those, from crafters, zone "kill the big mobs" and dungeons/shiphand missions).
I typically floated around between 10 and 15 different *activities* being in my log at any point in time, although some of those were due to bugged quests that I kept in my log to come back to later, some from a low level zone that I was doing when I wanted to do something different zone to my "level appropriate" zone, quests from a dungeon that I hadnt completed, and 2 ship hand missions (so I didn't forget to do them).
Oh, and the missions for each zone were *typically* all in the same area as well
Although to an extent, it could be viewed as an "activity log" of stuff to do...
I can see the reasoning behind 3 though (as that is generally the most that you can focus on (as in do) at the same time...
At home, I've played a good amount of Skyrim lately. The problem I keep running into there is that my active quest list is gigantic. Makes it very hard to figure out where I need to go at any one point.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
I understand and have no quarrels with this scenario(except maybe the price point which I assume to be a hypothetical with no actual value assessed). I do however do not understand what a "Premium Player" is but it's not relevant to this point.
I go even further to say that ALL content created after the launch of the game should be sold. Period. Never let it be free. If we Free2Play players want to unlock content we should be prepared to A) Buy it or B) Grind for it. This lowers players desire for multiple accounts, raises resale value for all new players for a constant stream of revenue, and provides incentive to stay current with the game's progress. This does not mean don't hold "sales" and preview days etc.. but for the most part my thought process goes "If you have to pay someone to make it, then we have to pay you to use it".
I don't see the benefit of letting development be free to all players without effort. It devalues the development.
Marvel Heroes is great at making the free players work to catch up to the paying players. They release all their playable, story content for free, but they have the number of paying users that makes this scenario still profitable. I'm not expecting CoT to have the same numbers as Marvel Heroes therefore I think CoT should not release the playable story content for free.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
This kind of depends on how your missions are set up. I say that you should have enough room to follow 3 story arcs at any given time. If I'm in Ironport that is X amount of missions for where I am in the Ironport story line, then if I'm Downtown I should have X amount of missions for where I am in the Downtown storyline and room for a few more.
Side Note: PLEASE ALWAYS ALLOW FOR TEAM/SHARING MISSIONS. It's the single most reason I point to in why Marvel Heroes has NO constant teaming in existence ever.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Premium players are someone who's spent money on the game. So it's easy to move from F2P to premium.
I'm not sure I'm sold on that idea of what I suggested, but I'm trying to find ways to have those who whine about not having everything free have a way to have it free :) I'm still for the idea of going totally sub.
Part of our model is to include an up-front cost equal to a few months subs (our current model is for 3 months) which then includes that number of months in subs. So, there would be no pure "f2p" player in this model, everyone would be Premium or sub.
To talk finance a moment and explain why:
The biggest hurdle of f2p is in getting that initial purchase. Studies show that once a person buys something once, and if the purchase is easy, they are likely to buy again. Something like 90% of people who buy one time will become a repeat purchaser. By having the model of subscriptions get store credit, and then having initial purchase tied to x months of subscription, you have overcome something like 80% of the hurdle from getting that initial purchase. In addition, everyone would then also have experienced a subscription as well, and would then be more likely to maintain that subscription.
It is, as I've mentioned before, not in wanting to force people to subscribe to get things, but in not taking away something they already have should someone opt not to renew.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Me too and me too! Having to "activate" every quest just to find out if some are located nearby is a real pain, but leaving them all activated all the time clutters the radar.
I'd like to think that the story element in CoT will be so engaging that I will be too eager to continue with my current missions to accumulate many new ones. :-)
BTW, will we officially be calling them missions instead of quests? I liked that we stood out in CoX by having a different name for them, even though I'm not sure it was actually official.
Spurn all ye kindle.
When players can and do have that many missions in their log/tracker the issue that tends to arise is that finishing the missions as quickly and efficiently as possible becomes the priority. For me it tends to become a case of, "While I'm in this area I need to kill six of these, eight of those, collect a dozen of that, hit those three buttons, talk to these four guys, oh and kill eight of those as well." All that remains is that beating on these guys fills up one of my many mission counters. Sure, the efficiency is great, but once they're done and I think back to them, it's a blur of, "Yeah, I killed those things. For that guy. Because, uh... XP!"
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Yes it was official, and +1!
Sword and Sorcery game conventions are just immersion breaking in a Superhero MMO--that's exactly one of the things that was so great about CoH!
They didn't just put a Superhero veneer over a Sword and Sorcery game, they made up the conventions and mechanics fresh (as much as was possible with the engine they were using) in light of THIS genre.
Grinding for, crafting, and modding "armor" in CO and DCUO just annoys the crap out of me. It just doesn't make any sense for this genre, so it ends up just feeling totally nonsensical and out of place.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
To help in case anyone else has that question, the "Upfront Months" you get when you make the initial purchase. Is this added on to the free month of VIP I'd get for pledging $50?
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
Excellent point!
Agreed.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Not sure on this. If so, along with the other tier that added on *even more* time on top ($75 dollar tier I believe).
That could (potentially) be 6 months of "store credit" all built up (ie sub time) before you get charged a dime, and a whole lot of store credit being built up.
There are *concepts* where those would make sense, ie tech based ones. Although repair costs could cover a generic wide range of things (ie general medical treatment to heal those aches and pains, repairing your weapons (if you used them) Those little things that a comic does show occasionally.
And CoX had grinding for materials for crafting though... unless you bought them off the AH. Kinda the same as other MMOs though with any crafting system where the materials are tradeable/sellable.
And I will generally use the term "mission", "op", "quest", "activity", orders for the same generic "quest" thing. Unless of course that term has a *specific* meaning in a game (ie Ops are short for Operations, which are raids in SWTOR).
But I don't get offended for someone using mission in WoW or quest in "superhero MMO's".
That is just the way I roll with terms which generally cover the same things over all games...
I do have a beef with "knock to" as the term that some people on these forums use for moves that will *move* the mob to where you are standing. But that is because it gives the impression to me of a move that *hits* the mob from behind to knock it towards you. Whereas most of the moves would actually hit the mob on the side that is facing you.
How would you describe the move "Bonfire" for example? Although it knocked mobs BACK from where it was focused, i generally used it behind mobs to knock them TOWARDS me... but that didn't make it a "knock to" move in my mind.
/nitpick
/derail
Correct, the months included with the KS are in addition to the base months. (The Kickstarter FAQ included this answer as well)
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Bingo!
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Can I suggest a nomenclature thread to keep the ideas posted here about the revenue model (subscriptions, micro subscriptions, micro transactions and free-play)
I too want to have the conversation and have some suggestions of my own biensure.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Strictly speaking there are no F2P players... everyone has to buy the game to start it, everyone who plays the game is either a subscriber or non subscriber.
From how they have been putting it across, Being a subscriber will get you *more* store credit then what you could normally buy for that $ amount, along with a few other bonuses (still being hashed out).
I honestly think though that a Dev sticky post concerning the *proposed* financial model though entirely from their point of view would help greatly though.
Right now, they are hidden in the depths of threads here, and people (like always... even I do it) tend to skip posts without meaning to.. which means that stuff gets hidden.
*facepalm* Sorry. I missed that part then when skimming it. Thanks for taking time out to answer it!
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
In case it didn't get answered to anybody's satisfaction already, I want to comment on the "what if you don't finish the arc?" question.
If you drop a mission, you have to start it over. That's pretty standard for most games. If you keep it around, and it is for some reason something you can interrupt and come back to (e.g. "Arrest 10 Gangsters in the Phoenix Plaza area"), there's no reason you couldn't pick it up/continue it when you get back to it (whether that's immediately or in a few weeks when it's available again). If it's the "instance" type, where you go into a cave or office building or whatnot, and you had to drop it, obviously you'll have to do it again.
You shouldn't expect to lose progress in a story arc or mission [i]line[/i], however, because you'll still have those contacts and clues you've already gathered in order to open up the next missions. They may not be available if you're doing them only on the free cycle, but you'll have what you need to pick up where you left off in the arc when they're available again.
(As always, this is still up in the air, but I hope this answers the concerns a little.)
In short: "losing progress" in the course of a story arc shouldn't ever be a thing, certainly not based solely on the concept of mission availability to free-to-players. It will only delay their completion if they can't get through all of the missions in the arc [i]this[/i] time it's on the "free" list. With patience and attention to when it's back on the "free" list, they'll be able to get through it.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Just so long as I don't get sent to the contact for ANY reason when it isn't free... You will have to make it *VERY* obvious to the player that the content that they are doing is available for a limited time period (expiry date as well please).
It annoys players when they go to a certain place to get/do a mission and then find for *any* reason that they are unable to do it. This argument has been used by members of THIS forum as an argument against "open world content" because they do not want to compete/play with other players doing the same content (or the risk of other higher level players "griefing" them by killing mobs that they are themselves after [1].
So you have wasted travel time going to X area, and then time BACK to another mission/quest giver to pick up content that you CAN do. Also depending on how fast the cycle is, you could see content NOT being ran from those contacts... the longer the wait, the less likely players will be to pick it up if they are non subscribers EVEN IF it is "free for a period". If I get given time limited content, I will try to burn through it ASAP, and it could be the "best content in the world" but I will not be wasting time on time limited content. Especially as most mission arcs in CoX were more than 3 to 5 missions in a row...
[1] I am not trying to wash players from a certain country here, but I have experienced this MUCH more when I played WoW on a US server, then I did playing WoW on an EU equivalent server (They were both PvE server types before you ask), so maybe it is a US cultural thinking of "ITS MINE!", whilst those on the English speaking PvE servers seemed more liable to split off and go to another area (or be willing to team up to do the same content) I am not trying to say that it is EXCLUSIVE to US servers, but that in general the EU servers seemed to be far more "nicer" in general. And I could say this about the CoX playerbase as well... I felt more at home on the EU servers (even the french/german servers) than the US servers.
I subbed to CoH from about Issue 4 up til the announcement of its closure with very little breaks in-between. It is still the only MMO I've played that long, much less subbed to for that long. Given the number of issues I had with the game I can't say what magic they worked to keep me hooked. There were whole months that I didn't play the game while I was subbed, only posted in the forums and occasionally played around with builds in Mids that I knew I'd never achieve because so many IOs were forever out of my reach. Maybe it was just because the game made me want to create characters, and facilitated me creating hordes of them fairly well.
I think there are two clues right in what you posted as to the magic that kept you (and me and so many others) hooked:
1) CREATING. It was a game where you went to create, not just participate in someone else's creation. From the character generator to AE, the level of a player's ability to create AND/OR participate in a created world was part of the essential spirit of the game.
The other part was the awesome Lore and the Superhero genre--which was important to me--but I always saw many people who played who clearly had no clue about the genera and totally ignored the game lore and played CoH just for the freedom of creation that the game allowed.
2) COMMUNITY. You said you were on the forums even when you weren't playing. That's because, while no more perfect than the game itself, the CoH community was overall exceptionally awesome. ESPECIALLY for an MMO (from what I've seen playing MMOs post-CoH).
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
This all sounds very good - very well thought out. If CoT can keep providing great content and give me a lot of bang for my buck I will have no problem with fully subbing to the game like I did with CoH (though CoH was a bit sketchy in the earlier issues, but steadily got better through the teens, and they were really knocking it out of the park in the latter issues until the end).
That all sounds great and basically exactly the same as CoH--which brings up another small point..
One of the few things that was annoying about CoH was going back and getting or doing leveling missions you didn't do for whatever reason. They were lower than your level so that you basically had to clear out some greys. Now, feeling like a god clearing out grey-con mobs isn't THAT bad, and if you wanted you could use the difficulty settings or, if it was just way low, get someone and Exemp to get around it.
Those things make this a minor point, BUT(tm), it'd be nice if even leveling missions adjusted to your level so that going back and doing them after you're max level was just as fun as everything else. Small point, but one of the few things that occasionally bugged me in CoH.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
An [I]option[/I] to adjust a mission in this way would be nice. Wouldn't want it to be automatic, because that would remove the option to leave a particularly difficult mission and try again after levelling.
Spurn all ye kindle.
(Sorry if this has already been discussed)
What about subscriber exclusive non story missions every fortnight/month to make side stories?
The essential value for me is rent vs buy.
Anything than can be rentable should be buyable. Subscribers buy the rental and f2p buy the right to own. No division of development. Maybe a discount for one or a sale for the other but NO "_____ only" content.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Yes, I stand corrected. Options are always better.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Done right, the way missions and arcs would be "locked" would be by unavailability of the contacts. They either can't be found or they have nothing to offer you until the mission is available. There also shouldn't be any "go here to meet so-and-so" if so-and-so doesn't have anything for you to do. Instead, it'd be, "So-and-so may have something for you in the future. I'll give him your name and he'll be in touch" or something like that.
I'm sure there are other mechanisms, but that's what my up-way-too-late-at-night brain is coming up with right now. ^^;
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
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That is one thing that bugged me with CoX, was that if you left it TOO long, you could be locked out of the actual story arc because you had out leveled the contact.
Now granted, this wasn't so much of a problem once you had unlocked oroborus, but that was annoying as well, because there was content that I found hard to do solo via oroborus and finding someone else willing to help out for the duration of the TF was fairly hard on my server.
I am a "do the content no matter how long it takes me to complete" but even so, there is an upper limit as to how long I am willing to bash my head against the wall before I complete it....
Oh, I didn't know that could happen. I thought once you started an arc it was unlocked no matter what level you reached, which is why you sometimes got these missions full of greys to which Empyrean was referring.
Spurn all ye kindle.
When suggested to do Life Time Subs, and those same people go meh (weren't you one who did that), then this idea is flawed, because LTS is giving you exactly that.
Why rent for 15 a month, when I can own it for 300 now!
Hi all :)
I'm sorry but i didn't read all the previous messages (cause it's really hard to understand all the subtleties) but, instead of choosing a way to pay, why not proposing several choices ?
Like :
1. Download the game and play 1 character, 1 class, 1 power set to level 20 or 30 for free and that's all. (during this time, you do make friends and want to stay after :p)
2. Buy the game (in France, 50€ could be a really good price to hook people. 40€ couls be too cheap, 60€ is too expensive for students)
3. choose what your want :
3.a : unsubscription : just have 3 characters slots, 2 or 3 from all existing classes, 2 or 3 sets from classification (but all can be buy in the store)
3.b : subscription (about 10/15€ a month is nice... just be careful of the exchange because in EU we always feel like being deceived/deluded when we see a 15$=15€ :/) give a free acces to all the game until you end it.
3. Use the market to gain additionnal objects which have no consequences during fight. Like new missions, set of costumes, rename a character, having pets, etc, etc. League of legend store is a good example :) Every one can play and all you can buy is just confort.
What about this kind of stuff ? Ok, it's a lot of work but it allow every people to play ! From teenagers to adults who earn money :p
And, for the life time subscription, i did it with Champions and i was really really desoinpted when the game ended to be localized. i reaaly fell like i was swindled :/
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If you outlevelled the contact before they gave you the story arc (ie running the trash missions before hand) you could most definitely get locked out of the actual story arc. Once there, you *could* in theory outlevel a mission so that they were "all grey" but that was fairly hard to do (I believe the group had to have no mobs that would spawn at your level, but you could end up with purples if they *did* spawn above your level).
However, if you started, then went out the mission, levelled up a few times and then went back in, you could get them "grey" but it would generally just be one mission.
It was one of those hard things to sort out, and it was more hassle than it was worth to "out level and run it easy", because it didn't work with ALL the content (unlike the more traditional MMO, where you can pick up a level 10 mission at level 50/60 and just run through it quickly)
This is a case of the point of view though... some like the content to be "relatively static" (ie the mobs are at set levels), whilst others like it to be dynamic (ie based on your character level).
I fit in between, it all depends as to *what* the plot of the content actually is... I will sway overall towards the "static levels", although I can see "character specific" storylines being "relative to your level" over being " static" in terms of levels...
There has to be a reward and drawback to Sub vs. F2P. The reward for Sub is that you rent everything and have access to everything for as long as you pay per month. The drawback is losing access to everything if you stop Subbing. The reward for F2P is not having to pay anything to be able to play the game if you choose not to, and once you do purchase something from the store it is yours forever to keep. The drawback is that you don't get access to everything and have to purchase the things you want. I don't understand why this is such a hard thing to accept. Everybody can't have everything all the time without paying for it in some way. Sounds like some people want to have their cake and eat it too.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
There's some information on [url=http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/mmo-arpu/]average revenue per user[/url] that is interesting.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Interesting! I found this quote to be the most resonant: "Focus on user experience, not revenue."
Spurn all ye kindle.
Why do i go meh to the idea of a LTS?
1) Microtransactions are easier to sell and accumulate than macrotrancsctions and LTS is a macrotransaction. While appealing to some it's alot of commitment that needs to FAR outweigh any doubt and skepticism which for the average consumer is not apparent initially in then you lose a potential sale instead of selling many somethings for tiny amounts of money.
2) LTS caps your expectancy of revenue from a customer. If you are an LTS and have spent $300 then come year 3 or 4 you're losing money on that customer. This is the reason LTS are usually only sold pre-launch (unless like Cryptic Studios your model is to squeeze customers for 2 years of content and then completely move on.. then it's a great business decision to sell LTS to any fool willing to buy one).
3) LTS doesn't provide metrics as to what consumers buy and provide even less metrics on what players want.
4) Entitlement .. no matter the game the player feels they should be somehow treated with bias by being this type of customer vs that type of customer but unlike microtransactions and subscriptions that provide constant support, the lifetimers i've met either A) feel UBER entitled or B) feel they can completely move on.. either way they're not engaged in the future of the game. If there's to be any "mouthpiece" that comes with entitlement it should look at the actual cash transactions of a player.. but no one wants to let the asshole whale who paid thousands' opinions over theirs based on that so why then do we accept it from LTS players..? I dunno
**I apologize for my tone in point 4, but I post it anyhow as it is an emotional and not completely rational response because the reaction is still a very visceral one that I feel I needed to express thusly**
Crowd Control Enthusiast
The entitlement works both ways. Plenty of F2P players who think they're entitled to getting everything in game without paying for any of it, including downloading/buying the box and access to it.
Which I found funny, as they also tend to play console games, so had to buy the games at some point. Something about it being a MMO and people start to think they should just have access to it free. Guess it's no different than those who think they're entitled to downloading and owning movies and music for free.
This does exist sometimes.. but I feel this is comparing apples to oranges. Paying Customers should all feel like paying customers. Non-paying customers are not the same as paying customers.
I only say this because every CoT player will be a paying customer. And as I do believe all development should have a Dollar Sign attached to the back end because it has a Dollar Sign attached at the front end. So for this reason getting a LTS eventually takes more away from the longevity of the game than it gives (unless your business model is made for LTS).
Now that being said.. if CoT offered a lifetime option I would have to look into it. As a consumer I'd be dumb not to.. I spent over $300 just in the kickstarter. But consumers and developers should feel like they are dancing and not feel like they are in a constant battle/struggle. I prefer developers to lead the dance and consumers to follow.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Oh, I agree a LTS is a bad idea for the company. I do think it's a generally good idea for the player however in a sub based game. However, I think if a game offers a LTS it will just point it towards becoming F2P when then hurts the sub players and the LTS players.
I hope whatever model they pic is the right one for the game, but I'm planning on subbing or LTS or whatever helps them the most up front to help them get started. And I'll waive any free time I get if I get any. I figure they're gonna need it.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
tinyspit: I like your first point, because it means we own something of the game, and I would pay for that ownership.
I would say no extra XP boosts or extra in-game money for subscribers v.s. F2P players. OR if you attach an altered XP rate, it should be removed once a F2P makes any purchase, whether that's a subscription or a cosmetic item, or what.
SWTOR has a reduced XP rate for F2P players and it's the major reason I decided to stop playing as a F2P player. It seemed very greedy and petty, because it makes a HUGE difference on the game, when you earn XP slower than the "real" game is designed to act.
Early access to content, or content in tiers based on your subscription/purchasing in-game items/F2P status is something SWTOR also did a bit, that I was very okay with.
Having a large number of free in-game points each month is nice.
Limiting the number of transactions that can be performed in auctions is okay, so long as everything on the auction can also be earned by F2P players.
Reducing the number of side jobs/professions a F2P character can hold at once compared to a subscriber is another.
I would not lock out classes or powersets based on F2P. It can create a Pay to Win feel, because it's incredibly difficult to have perfect balance in an MMO, and the ones that actually would entice people to subscribe are likely the better and/or cooler ones. Either you're making a semi-pay to win situation or not letting F2P players see some of the coolest things your game can offer...
Restricting the number of times per week certain high-level content like raids, TFs, player-created missions, or PvP matches can be played is another option.
Limiting chat access to responding to /tell or talking on /team..don't let players start up a team of their own, only join existing ones, etc.
F2P could also have a limit on the number of character that can be created/played at once to only those "activated" for a particular month. F2P players have to "activate" 1-3 character slots to use the character and that slot stays activated for a month or something until it is innactivated and the player has to chose new slots.
Not allowed to create guilds, only join, etc...
These are the type of limitations that I would be okay playing with for long enough in order to subscribe to have removed.
On top of that, subscribing could offer additional perks, like completely free respecs, free extra alternative builds/specs, extra costume slots, slight priority in queues (this would take some tweeking, it shouldn't ALWAYS put a subscriber before a F2P player, maybe just open a certain number of spots (say, 1-3) in front of a F2P player that subcribers can fill in even if they enter the queue after F2P players. Access to a few extra cosmetic options after each month of being subscribed that could also be bought fairly cheaply in "packs" from the store as well.
I would also say it would be pretty compelling if there were subscriptions offered for periods of time LESS than a month as well. A lot of the crowd who played the generation of MMOs that CoH was apart of may have been in high school/middle school when they started playing. These days they might be starting careers, college, etc. Things that don't necessarily offer a lot of time. They may not like the idea of paying for a full month or something when they know they will only have 1 or 2 weeks with enough downtime to really play in a particular month. Why not offer 1 week and 15 day subscriptions on top of standard 30 day subscriptions, which cost proportionally less.
I wouldn't jack up the price per day on having a smaller subscription period very much the way that subscriptions LONGER than 30 days are discounted, either. I think you are really trying to sell to two fundamentally different groups of people when you have a variation on the month-to-month access model that is based around appealing to people who know they want to be able to have access all of the time for long periods of time, and people who don't want to pay for a longer period of time because they know they won't be ABLE to play for those long periods. If you jack the rates up, it beings to feel too much like you're being penalized for not having a lot of time. When you purchase large bundles of months it's like a reward for showing an incentive to support the game more long-term.
I would also say that maybe the game should still cost something to download/get initial access to, even if it's just a small sum, like $5 for account access. There could be unlimited trial accounts that level cap out pretty early on, but otherwise, I think the $5 is a nice way to not create a huge barrier to being able to play based on income bracket, but also support the game's development. If a player doesn't want to put even 5 dollars into getting access to a game (and the F2P game should offer the full extent of the single-player-game-like part of the game/main story lines, plus some extra perks of being an MMO at heart.), they're unlikely to be willing to support it much financially any other way, and at the end, a game needs to make money to keep on being developed. It's just not in the interest of the game to offer more than a "taste" of the game without asking money for the basic software until the game's engine is really heavily dated. Plus $5 is still a lot more reasonable than a lot of MMOs ask. Even SWTOR's expansion cost $20 for F2P players and $10 for subscribers for quite a while. WoW still costs $20 and $50 for the most recent expansion.
THey have already said that there is a box price for the game, so there will be no truely "free to play" players, just people who paid for the game and are not subscribing to it... and the those who bought the game and subscribed
Something that nobody in the industry does as far as I can tell, is a "give us X$ and you can sub half price in perpetuity" type deal. This seems a better way of doing the LTS for both sides, meaning that the game gets a little money out of their dedicated players on an ongoing basis, but it also means it's a cheap ongoing sub for those players.
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team and Forum Moderator[/color]
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Something else that could be done is sub is $10 a month for however limited number of character slots, and any slots above that costs a flat amount additional cost.
So you buy the game. You can make up to 3 characters. Each additional character slot costs 5 dollars to unlock.
Hi, glad to see lively discussion.
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Please just make it subscription based 100%. Then after a few months of that you can see about what to offer for 'free', or rather 'premium'. So, the second level would be people who bought the game, for $29.99 or whatever. The one-time purchase. But they choose to not sub after the first month that comes with the game purchase. So, they are either inactive completely, or become 'premium' players. A better word is needed, of course. The amount of freedom you give to the 'premies' (really bad word to use, sry... just to point out a better word is needed), determines the value remaining to the 'subbers', or 'elites', or whatever word you use. "Superheroes" and "Sidekicks" would be a good idea. A sidekick 'f2p' kind of player would be able to do whatever the 'Superhero' class of player can do, as long as a 'Superhero' wants them as their 'Sidekick'.
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At any rate, imo, your best bet is to make the Sub experience very good to start, 100%. Then water it down a little to benefit the 'sidekicks'. Obviously there are many 'models' to take examples from, but working BACK from 100% sub should give you a better feel for what is proper than trying to build up the sub as a better alternative to non-sub.
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However, both paths will get you there, eventually, through trial and error (the scientific method, lol).
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Another idea would be something side-ways, like micro-subs, where you just click the boxes you want to pay for on a recurring basis. But, this is trying to arrive at the destination without taking the journey. Not as advisable.
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Besides, there are many people who want to FULLY support the effort, through a subscription, to see the game achieve its full potential. If they are willing to pay a sub to experience a beta (or alpha) then you are further down the path to proper balance between sub and non-sub.
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Also, don't bother trying to make a truly 'free' player category. These are just the trial-players. Everyone knows that if you want to play, you have to pay. No sense in trying to lure people in with some false assumption that life is anything but pay2play. Everybody knows that farmville f2p players are ... [insert your own derogatory word here]... (wasting their time fooling themselves into thinking they are having fun, lol... especially when every dang item in the game has a 'facebook bucks' button for you to click on to buy it right now... arrgh!!!). So, no ambiguous f2p models and it will all work out just fine, eventually. :)
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If the game is subscription only, the affinity for leaving it is heightened exponentially. Why pay for an experience in MANY other places give it away much more freely?
Not that the game making money isn't something I advocate.. it's just not attractive in the current marketplace to have a subscription only game. I speak as a consumer AND as someone who understands investor behavior now, no product exists in a bubble and as much as we'd love to turn back time to 2003 it's just not going to happen. The market has evolved beyond this model.
I likely sound like I'm repeating myself but to put this from my perspective people are asking me to give up my climate controlled home for a tent and a campfire. As much as I may like living with you.. I'm not going back to the stone age.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Right,
So, the real question is what does the player do after the first month, if they don't buy the subscription? They paid XX$$ for the original product, presumably (not considering the option of free-download trial atm, later though, yes). So, they must be able to do something greater than a free-trial player would be able to do, hence the term 'premium'. What content is worthy enough to keep someone playing 'for free' (though they bought the game box), but not enough to devalue the 'sub' experience? This is the tricky situation that has no real solution, other than trial and error. Perhaps there are enough examples out there you can jump right to the middle solution, the micro-sub/trigger-pay experience. You might pay monthly just for the ability to open an instance on expert level, like DDO, but pay for other things on a piece-meal basis, like a pvp-pass, such as SWTOR. These things exist, and there is a certain middle road that one can walk down.
Perhaps the 'middle' path is the answer then.
Then NO subs and NO freemies, only PREMIES. Make everything micro-transactions, just like when you buy your energy drink, both in real-life, and in game-life. Or maybe you prefer granola bars for energy. Your choice.
... there should be a poll or something :)
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[a trial player would be able to experience the game as an observer only (like a journalist 'soldier') ... but, if they want to purchase their 'hero card', from such and such hero card vendor in game, for only $5, then they are a true 'premie', but with only minimal set of abilities, as in what a player can do in game, such as whack mobs on the head, hand them over to the police, maybe return handbags to old ladies, etc. The rest is the 'scientific' part of the middle-road money model. A $5 premie could potentially 'sidekick' with higher level players, say up to +5 levels above their own, assuming levels are still in fashion, i believe the answer is still yes to levels... another +5 levels, so +10 levels sidekicking could be added on for a small fee, or possibly completing level 10, it all depends on what works, because there are so many variables to consider, it simply boggles the mind. You are forced to do it on an experimental basis, as a science. The science of MMO money modeling, or MMO monetizing. For example, I could charge you $5 for this advice, or you could just give me 'premium' access for providing such valuable insights.]
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{I guess some people buy their energy drinks via subscription model, to be delivered by mail once a month, say from QVC or wherever. Other people don't buy energy drinks at all. So, you might just consider that ALL payment methods are possible and just use everything you can imagine or ideas you can steal, till it is proven to work or to fail. After all, life goes on, and it is not going to make or break the game if you lose one micro-transaction because not enough people liked it.}
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The current plan that has been put forth by MWM is that the game will have a box price, i.e. it'll be buy to play. Past that the players can choose if they want to play for free or if they want to subscribe. The subscription will provide benefits in some form that are greater in value than the cost of the subscription.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
The digital store follows many of the same sales principles of your favorite storefont store.
There's the window - where you see a product passively. This is the press and media of the game.
Then you have to enter the store - the entry for CoT will require payment to walk in the store (like buying a membership card)
Once you enter the store however.. the salesman has to close the deal. This means having products we want to buy at prices we like and giving us fun incentives when we're making up our minds. Closing the deal on a macrotransaction is hard, closing on a subscription is a lower threshold than closing the deal on a macotransaction but is a higher threshold than a micro-transaction.
So if I can't sell you the whole $5,000 media system at once, i'll see if you can rent it.. but if you have $200 in your pocket now I'll sell you on buying just the speakers.
I am the type of consumer that does not ever want to rent or pay over time even when I can afford to so if I can't afford to "buy it all now" then I will buy what I can afford. I simply refuse to rent things to acquire them.. and if the terms are that I am forced to rent (as with my apartment) I refuse to be locked into terms that prohibit me from ending the rental agreement on my terms.
The idea that you lose what you had paid for because you no longer rent/subscribe is just not attractive to me as a consumer. I'll either buy it and have it forever or leave it.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
right, so the middle path, which is no path at all, just walking where the footprints lead you
not a bad choice, considering how much has been done already, in various games
eventually everything will be microtrans... sub format is dying.. slowly
but, you can help it to hang on another day/week/mo/yr...
best strategy is to use all forms of revenue gathering possible
and to imagine more
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Honestly if CoT has the exact same f2p vrs Sub model that CoH had (minus the no access to end game content and invention enhancement system) i'd feel it would have the best system ever made. I still long for CoH's sub model.
The reason why is that I loved the veteran rewards system and would like to see it copied.
Just remember the most important thing; don't make it feel like you're getting cheaped out on for not subbing. If you make it very restricitive for the people who choose not sub, it's a turn off to new players, and just people in general. Whenever I tryout a new game that's like that, I always think to myself; "Why would I spend a cent on this bull**** when I could just subscribe to that other great game, and not get restricted once that time ends?"
A key to making people want to sub is making it feel like they can acquire the sub bonuses without ever spending a cent. Make it a choice between money or time investment (don't make either too steep, or people will feel cheaped out) Almost always, when someone's putting that much time into something, they realize; "Geez, this is taking a lot of time out of my life for this new class. But, you know what? In the time that I've played, I've realized how great of a game this really is! Also, the developers aren't restricting me around every corner. They're great guys! You know what, they deserve the money, and I deserve the time. I'm just going to sub!" Before you point out how cheesy that sounds, that's actually quite literally my thought process whenever I sub to a game. If they lock me out, I won't even try their game. But games where you can potentially play free forever (while having all the same stuff as a paying member) I end up always subbing (CO, LotRO, SWTOR, etc.). Of course, don't make it to unrestricted or there won't even be a point in spending money. But anyways, the thing about CO was the questonite exchange. Basically, you could exchange a form of currency called questonite for Zen with other players, which is bought with real money. I believe STO and NW also did this.
Also, to anyone who's thinking, "But if they made it so you could exchange game money for Zen (we'll go with that) with other players (in-game, whatever currency they'll call it at release), wouldn't they lose money? Actually, no. Someone still has to be the Zen in the first place. They'd make their money still, and F2P players would stay happy.
CoH really did a lot right.
As long as CoT goes there first for ideas as they say they are, and after that looks elsewhere when needed and moves further, we should be in good shape.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Wait, I think I'm missing something. It sounded like what you are saying is "Let the folks who pay nothing per month get the same stuff as the folks who have committed to paying MWM on a monthly basis -- and this will somehow make them decide to start paying MWM for what they are already getting." That sounds counterintuitive to me. Have I misunderstood?
For my own part, I'd always like to have a chance to try a new game for free, but I expect to have to pay if I want access to everything. If I like what I see when I'm a guest, then I'll sub to get the whole thing.
Spurn all ye kindle.
All I can think right now, reading a lot of these posts is, this is the reason CoH shut down in the first place. Players not wanting to spend money on any part of the game and now, they're trying to make it so no money is spent on the new mmo meant to take it's place.
CoH was in the black when it shut down, so plenty of people were spending money. Whether it was through subscription, the cash store, or both. I get the impression in this thread that most of the posters do want MWM to take their money; they are just debating on how they [i]should[/i] take our money.
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
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